The Liberal Gun Club Forum

Collector1337 wrote:Racism is a pretty abstract concept.

Some jump at the chance to call anything racist. Some don't get how anything is racist.

It's subjective.

This doesn't have much to do with racism, but as a White person, I despise the word "Caucasian." I think white is just fine. Otherwise call me a German American, or European American, but I don't come from Caucasia, so don't call me Caucasian, it's stupid.

When a Black person insists on being called "African American", or when a White person insists on being called "Caucasian" I think it's ridiculous.

BTW, what the fuck is a "non-latino" white person? Why is that the bubble I always have to fill in on stupid forms that shouldn't be asking in the first place?

The fact that we still fill out what are race we are on forms (unless maybe medical) for school and other official things, I think is a reason why we still have racism. No one will shut the fuck up about it, so how can it go away? But, I guess I'm guilty of that right now.

True, and I think the "non-latino" thing comes from the fact the some Latinos are very light skinned, but then again that’s like being a tan Caucasian, I really don't know, but hey its the government at work what do you expect

OldScratch wrote:What's presented in the article about any DNA evidence is incomplete. There is nothing about the location of the blood stains on Zimmerman's clothes. Front? Back? Around the shoulders? What? If Zimmerman's primary wounds were to the back of his head and did not involved any major bleeding, it makes sense Martin would not have much spatter on his clothes.

Head wounds usually involve lots of blood. Also missing is much of the DNA from Martin that would be expected if Martin had attacked Zimmerman. I'd have to look, but I don't remember Zimmerman saying Martin was wearing gloves at the time.

Fukshot wrote:

Man Shoots Teen
but we got this
Black Teen Gunned Down in Florida

Do you see the difference that makes, see the more we play the race card the more we make racism a problem

I see the difference. I dispute that your assertion about how the difference would play out is accurate.

I also dispute your assertion that there is any such thing as "the race card", a notion I find offensive on its face. I also vehemently reject your assertion that talking more about how race functions in our society somehow perpetuates racism. It perpetuates white people having to be aware of racism, which is pretty damn different from perpetuating the existence of racism.

I also vehemently reject your assertion that talking more about how race functions in our society somehow perpetuates racism.

If you had said culture I could agree, see we need to stop thinking of society in terms of race, are we not all humans? If you keep bringing up race that’s what people will focus on , Its like that comment I made In some thread a while back "Main wez got dat musket main" or something along those lines, but you and a couple of others picked up on it has racist why, because when you heard it in your mind you saw a black man saying that, so by your own subconscious you think there is a difference between races

It perpetuates white people having to be aware of racism

Racism will always exist and your implication that just white people need to be reminded of it, why is that? Is there no latinos who hate black people, blacks who hate whites, arabs who hate latinos? If you want to snuff racism out you need to focus on all forms of it not just one

I also dispute your assertion that there is any such thing as "the race card"

But there is, when we refer to something along the lines of Black Man Shot when we could refer to it better has simply Man Shot or Jeremy Lin: The Asian Superstar when we could have just said Jeremy Lin: Basketballs Hot New Star the more we talk about race the worse it gets. The more you remind people of there differences

Fukshot wrote:Copying the contemporary styles of popular music does not equal criminality, even if there is a correlation between the two in the eyes of some. Theft does not equal deserving to be shot on the street either.

I call bullshit. I haven't seen one shred of evidence to suggest that Trayvon Martin was anything other than a black teenager.

When then did Zman inflict the injuries to the back of his head?

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http://www.examiner.com/article/george- ... head-photo

Fukshot wrote:The issue is that this shit looks threatening to people when they see a young black man doing it, but not when they see me, the middle-aged white lady doing it. That there is what we call racism.

Let me assure you, a 17 year old white kid was doing it would set off my Spidey sense, too.

rolandson wrote: you do read the articles that you cite before you cite them, yes??

No evidence ever surfaced that the jewelry was stolen.

“Martin was suspended, warned and dismissed for the graffiti,” according to the report prepared by schools police.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2 ... rylink=cpy

Good catch! I did a double take on this one:

Instead the officer reported he found women’s jewelry and a screwdriver that he described as a “burglary tool,” according to a Miami-Dade Schools Police report obtained by The Miami Herald.

I feel oh so much safer now knowing that police officers can just go around and declare any random object a "burglary tool." Pretty soon they'll be banning screwdrivers, because they're burglary tools. "Who would want to own a screwdriver, except a burglar?! Honest citizens do not need screwdrivers. They can hire experts."

Lets chill a bit. Middle aged white guys don't get to define racism.

Inquisitor wrote:Lets chill a bit. Middle aged white guys don't get to define racism.

Tell that to Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlson

lemur wrote:

rolandson wrote: you do read the articles that you cite before you cite them, yes??

No evidence ever surfaced that the jewelry was stolen.

“Martin was suspended, warned and dismissed for the graffiti,” according to the report prepared by schools police.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2 ... rylink=cpy

Good catch! I did a double take on this one:

Instead the officer reported he found women’s jewelry and a screwdriver that he described as a “burglary tool,” according to a Miami-Dade Schools Police report obtained by The Miami Herald.

I feel oh so much safer now knowing that police officers can just go around and declare any random object a "burglary tool." Pretty soon they'll be banning screwdrivers, because they're burglary tools. "Who would want to own a screwdriver, except a burglar?! Honest citizens do not need screwdrivers. They can hire experts."

Yeah, the "burglary tool" thing can get pretty ridiculous. I've had cops try to say that a Leatherman is one, as well as a crecent wrench I carry for work, and the best is when I was leaving a small town late at night (2 or 3am), having just gotten off from work in their "arena", when I pulled over onto a side street (still within 40-50' of the main road, or within the fence distance first vacant lot on the corner) to make a phone call. Car still running, lights on. I reached into the back seat to get my phone from my bag, and by the time I had opened the phone, I saw flashing in my rearview. Cop came up and started grilling me about why I was there, and what I was doing. He shines his flashlight in my back seat, sees a toolbag, a full body harness and a few hundred feet of rope, and putting his hand on his gun he starts getting excited and says "What are you doing with all these burglary tools!!!?? Where are you goig?!" ...Like he'd caught the fucking Jackal or something! Yeah buddy, you're so smart, you caught me, a second story guy...but dumb; I forgot to hide my shit. Must've been on my way to do some mission impossible shit...maybe for art, or gold! Yeah that's it, gold! Mwahahahahaah!

I tried to explain what I do for a living, and that I'd just been literally hanging from the ceiling of their venue in said harness, and using the rope to install/uninstall the show. He sorta got it, but started asking me questions which were essentially trying to lead me into declaring my job to be some kind of drug orgy...at height!

And the best part is that, that incident wasn't the first or last. I guess most people don't drive around with tools they use at work. It's a sad state of affairs when a tradesman is acosted more than once, essentially for actually working for a living. I respect the overall position in society of LEOs, but sadly most of the individuals I've interacted with aren't qualified to really do much detecting, it seems.

Talking about how he dressed is the same as telling what a woman was wearing when she was raped. IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER.

Paladin wrote:Talking about how he dressed is the same as telling what a woman was wearing when she was raped. IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER.

^^ This.

AmirMortal wrote:

Paladin wrote:Talking about how he dressed is the same as telling what a woman was wearing when she was raped. IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER.

^^ This.

+2

X

The 2 key points for me have always been.
1. Zimmerman got out of his car after being told not to.
2. Trevon wasn't armed.

I'm not sure that Zimmerman is a racist. I would really be disgusted if Zimmerman shot him because of his color.
I think he's a wanna-be Cop. I think that because of his history, and his actions that night.
I also think he's stupid, and stupid gets you into this kind of shit.

I see the discussion has become, on one level about race. I really hope the Jurors can see past race.

Less important than what the jurors think, is what we think. I really hope that we can see past race.

Please.

GuitarsandGuns wrote: 1. Zimmerman got out of his car after being told not to.

QFT, had he followed the request of the 911 operator, this incident would never have happened.

Fukshot wrote:Copying the contemporary styles of popular music does not equal criminality, even if there is a correlation between the two in the eyes of some. Theft does not equal deserving to be shot on the street either.

I call bullshit. I haven't seen one shred of evidence to suggest that Trayvon Martin was anything other than a black teenager.

Bingo.

SwampGrouch wrote:

Fukshot wrote:The issue is that this shit looks threatening to people when they see a young black man doing it, but not when they see me, the middle-aged white lady doing it. That there is what we call racism.

Let me assure you, a 17 year old white kid was doing it would set off my Spidey sense, too.

Martin's only "crime" that night was going to the store and buying Skittles. While black. That's it, 100%. Your assertion that he was "not innocent" here is total bullshit. He did nothing wrong. Your "evidence" seems to be that at some point in his past he may have done something wrong - something Zimmerman couldn't have known about, or that would have been relevant if he did. That's it. Other than that, you've got nothing.

Stop blaming the victim here.

Whatever Martin may or may not have done aside from what occurred that night last February has little or no bearing on this case. The same for the question of whether or not Zimmerman is a racist. So what? The news has been all over the board on this case. Some of the portrayals of the 911 audio have been rife with problems. NBC heavily edited their early release of the audio and CNN read into the audio things that just weren't there. Both did some backpedaling as a result. As is typical of highly-publicized cases, this kind of speculation is all trial-by-media.

It's astounding to me that Zimmerman was not arrested that evening. In all likelihood, we may never heard of this case if he had been charged. Given Florida's more generous self-defense laws, Zimmerman stands a better chance of being acquitted than in many other states where his actions would clearly have constituted manslaughter. This case will boil down how the judge and jury apply Florida law to this case, and all the moaning in the press, one way or the other, is relatively meaningless.

My own sense is the shooting did not have to happen. If Zimmerman had not aggressively pursued Martin, there would have been no attack, however it occurred. That would be a strong case for manslaughter in these parts. Florida may be another story though. Time will tell.

There are many questions of fact that will hopefully be clarified at trial (Did the stand your ground hearing take place yet?) . Zman appears to have a good attorney, good enough to have the first assigned judge removed from the case. The dna evidence can cut either way as an expert quoted in the article noted. I doubt that neither the deceased or the shooter have pristine backgrounds. Some of that will come out at trial.

Will a trial discover the truth of what happened? Maybe. One thing that will happen is that Zman will either win or lose at trial, a hung jury notwithstanding. Unlike the Continental judicial systems that place truth seeking as the goal requiring even defense counsel to aid that even if it means compromising his client, our system is fundamentally about winning or losing, true or not.

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Baikal49 wrote:There are many questions of fact that will hopefully be clarified at trial (Did the stand your ground hearing take place yet?) . Zman appears to have a good attorney, good enough to have the first assigned judge removed from the case. The dna evidence can cut either way as an expert quoted in the article noted. I doubt that neither the deceased or the shooter have pristine backgrounds. Some of that will come out at trial.

Will a trial discover the truth of what happened? Maybe. One thing that will happen is that Zman will either win or lose at trial, a hung jury notwithstanding. Unlike the Continental judicial systems that place truth seeking as the goal requiring even defense counsel to aid that even if it means compromising his client, our system is fundamentally about winning or losing, true or not.

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Z's own lawyer has said publicly that there is absolutely no basis for them to use the SYG laws as defense. So there most likely will not be a hearing about SYG. Z instigated the entire thing, and listening to the 9-1-1 tapes, that is clear as day. He is going down for manslaughter at the very least, and possibly for murder.

Martin may not have been a perfect kid, but few are, and he certainly didn't have any serious criminal actions taken against him. The same cannot be said of Z, who attacked a cop previously (amongst others) but was let off due to familial connections. Those same connections appear to be the real reason that no investigation happened that night, and are the real reason he wasn't arrested for so long after his crime. Sanford ain't gonna be the same after this.

We shall see.

To my reckoning, Treyvon was an angel. When I was 17, I would've had pot & paraphernalia on my possession. And I would have been going to the store, to buy beer - definitely not Skittles - with my fake ID. That is, until my uncle Sam straightened me out.

Not sure if Zimmerman would have suspected me, as I'm white. But I'm pretty sure I would have said some shit, to get him to draw his piece, if he did. From everything I've read, Zimmerman was just an asshole - the kind of guy who wants to be a cop, just for the feeling of power and fear-induced respect. And that is precisely the sort of person who should not be a cop.

Treyvon was a 17yo kid that was, compared to me at his age, an angel. I remember when I was about 16, this guy wearing military shit gave my buddies a hard time, in a K-Mart parking lot. We were just listening to music and waiting for some girls to show. The guy started shouting at us, and telling us to stop loitering in the parking lot. I stood face-to-face with him (I wasn't a scrawny teen), and told him to fuck off. He subsequently went back to his car, to fetch his 1911. Then, he pointed it at us, demanding respect. One of my buddies said "you won't use that thing", and the guy returned to his car and left K-Mart. I draw two lessons from that: teens are stupid/rebellious, and brandishing a weapon doesn't always elicit the intended consequences. Of course, if my buddies and I had been black, I probably wouldn't be typing this.

As the parent of two mixed-race kids, I'm teaching them to be wary of that shit. But it sucks that they'll be perceived as gangsters, if the wear gold or let their pants droop a bit. And looking at Treyvon makes my heart bleed... he could be one of my boys.

I love guns, and support the right to carry. But having the ability to carry a gun doesn't make us Western sherrifs. IMOHO, it enables us to get out of trouble, and doesn't provide us with a license to seek it out.

IndieGuy wrote: Martin's only "crime" that night was going to the store and buying Skittles. While black.