The Liberal Gun Club Forum

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/24/justice/n ... ?hpt=hp_t1

Crazy man...there have been so many of these incidents in the news..

I am a big RKBA supporter but if you read the comments you will see a few stupid ones. I love that folks threw out there that more people carrying would have saved lives....um..no..the shooter died as did the man he intially shot. More guns on the street would not have saved lives this time.

I all for RKBA but do not simply drop talking points without making sure they are accurate for the case at hand.

This one cost me some heart cells... My older daughter lives in Manhattan. She called me this morning to tell me she took the day off for a doctor's appointment, after which she was "headed to mid-town." I later heard this story on NPR. I can do the math in my head but it's still hard not to worry. I called her cell and got no answer. A little more stress. She called an hour later. She was not in the vicinity and was at the doctor when it happened.

Whew!

Sounds like most of the wounded were from the police.

Maybe they only stopped firing when he went down.

Not for me to judge but -

It seems like the one thing you want to stay very far away from is the NYPD if you value your life.

Reminds me of - "Don't go near Lieutenants, they draw fire"

GuitarsandGuns wrote:Sounds like most of the wounded were from the police.

Maybe they only stopped firing when he went down.

Not for me to judge but -

It seems like the one thing you want to stay very far away from is the NYPD if you value your life.

Reminds me of - "Don't go near Lieutenants, they draw fire"

Events like this should give pause to those who would only trust guns in the hands of trained law enforcement personel. All the training in the world won't save folks behind/around your target if you take risky shots.

ErikO wrote:Events like this should give pause to those who would only trust guns in the hands of trained law enforcement personel. All the training in the world won't save folks behind/around your target if you take risky shots.

It's a really tough call in an active shooter situation. You MIGHT hit someone near him, but he WILL hit people as long as he keeps shooting.

We are one fuck&^%$$ed people...that's our real problem.

Eyewitness James Bolden told Reuters news agency he saw a man lying on the pavement bleeding from the neck and barely breathing.

"Everybody was crowded around him taking pictures and video, and security guys were yelling everybody to get back, and give him space," he said. "He was barely breathing."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19372533

Xela

SwampGrouch wrote:

ErikO wrote:Events like this should give pause to those who would only trust guns in the hands of trained law enforcement personel. All the training in the world won't save folks behind/around your target if you take risky shots.

It's a really tough call in an active shooter situation. You MIGHT hit someone near him, but he WILL hit people as long as he keeps shooting.

True, that is a situation I hope to never be in. It also shows that confusion will reign if/when CCW comes to NYC.

The way that so many got injured by "return fire" is one of the things that makes it a very difficult choice to get involved in a shootout.

The way that I see it, my carry gun is for self defense, as a last option to save my life and that of those immediately around me. Armed or not armed, the first move is "run away!" as if being chased by a killer rabbit.

There are lots of possible outcomes in a situation like this, only one of which is positive:
a) You shoot and stop the bad guy.
b) The bad guy shoots you because you are a lousy shot under stress.
c) You attract the attention of the bad guy, and he shoots those around you.
d) You miss and shoot an innocent person or two.
e) Someone confuses you for the bad guy and shoots you.
f) You could have saved more people if you defended their retreat, instead you abandoned them to go fight and your 'plan' didn't work.
g) You start a gunfight where none would have taken place. Very common in robberies where the bad guy would have just taken the loot and left.

In any case, the best option is run. If it's too late (shooting is in your vicinity), take cover, even if it's just curling up as deeply into the street curb as possible. Prepare to fight back, and take action if it's the only remaining option. "Die Hard" is not something you want to do, unless it is while making whooopie!

Awake wrote:The way that so many got injured by "return fire" is one of the things that makes it a very difficult choice to get involved in a shootout.

The way that I see it, my carry gun is for self defense, as a last option to save my life and that of those immediately around me. Armed or not armed, the first move is "run away!" as if being chased by a killer rabbit.

There are lots of possible outcomes in a situation like this, only one of which is positive:
a) You shoot and stop the bad guy.
b) The bad guy shoots you because you are a lousy shot under stress.
c) You attract the attention of the bad guy, and he shoots those around you.
d) You miss and shoot an innocent person or two.
e) Someone confuses you for the bad guy and shoots you.
f) You could have saved more people if you defended their retreat, instead you abandoned them to go fight and your 'plan' didn't work.
g) You start a gunfight where none would have taken place. Very common in robberies where the bad guy would have just taken the loot and left.

In any case, the best option is run. If it's too late (shooting is in your vicinity), take cover, even if it's just curling up as deeply into the street curb as possible. Prepare to fight back, and take action if it's the only remaining option. "Die Hard" is not something you want to do, unless it is while making whooopie!

The way I see it, my first responsability is for those who came with me whereever this is happeneing. After that, my responsability is to not harm those around me. If everyone else is gone and I get a clean shot, I might take it as long as it looks like a clear shot to me. Any indecision and I am out of there.

I'm no sheepdog, I'm a sheep with fangs. Big difference.

Everybody's a hero.

It is a really, really sad statement of the times when we get links like this sometimes twice a week, and tentatively click on them to be almost relieved that it was "just" another unorganized attack and not some group.

More and more of these are people who don't usually own or use guns, but their misuse of firearms is something that splashes back on everyone who is a responsible owner.

ErikO wrote:I'm no sheepdog, I'm a sheep with fangs. Big difference.

Our Indian Spirit Guide is the Porcupine. Rather peaceful, but you don't want to mess with it.

Awake wrote:

ErikO wrote:I'm no sheepdog, I'm a sheep with fangs. Big difference.

Our Indian Spirit Guide is the Porcupine. Rather peaceful, but you don't want to mess with it.

On a very unrelated note, I did a visionquest in college and it seemed that wolverine decided she liked me. I blame her for my surly times.

Wow,

Hearing so much these days about the fact that "Stand your ground" laws or "Castle Doctrine" retain the responsibility on the shooter for hitting innocent bystanders, I can't believe the police did this carnage... Watch the video and see how many people, little kids, were walking around when the police responded with gunfire:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/25/nyreg ... .html?_r=1

About 9 innocent bystanders hit?!? Incredibly poor training there, not only for bad aim at under 10-15 yards, but for failing to open up that tunnel vision under stress and know when NOT to fire.

Given the fact that some journalists have written that the attacker's handgun was already empty, there is a possibility that the police fired first and kept firing. I'd be surprised if no disciplinary actions are announced soon on the two officers.

It's NYPD. They don't have to worry about repercussions, because effectively for them, there are none.

SumGuyontheInternet wrote:It's NYPD. They don't have to worry about repercussions, because effectively for them, there are none.

Was this even a mass shooting? Not counting the police? Sadly, the perp shot one person then walked away only to be opened up on by two police on a crowded street.

Maybe it's a good thing handguns are basically illegal in NYC. NYPD probably shoots fewer people this way.

Unfortunately, this tragic incident shows how difficult it is to use hand guns in an emergency situation. And these guys were trained.

The point is, that if you carry, practice even more.

CDFingers

SumGuyontheInternet wrote:It's NYPD. They don't have to worry about repercussions, because effectively for them, there are none.

I can't believe the officers would not be held accountable in some way for the innocent people they wounded. If this shooting had been between two private citizens I guarantee each would be held accountable for every shot fired. Criminal as well as civil charges would surely be levied against them.

I'm sure the ambulance chasers are writing up lawsuits as we speak.

Bisbee wrote:Wow,

Hearing so much these days about the fact that "Stand your ground" laws or "Castle Doctrine" retain the responsibility on the shooter for hitting innocent bystanders, I can't believe the police did this carnage... Watch the video and see how many people, little kids, were walking around when the police responded with gunfire:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/25/nyreg ... .html?_r=1

About 9 innocent bystanders hit?!? Incredibly poor training there, not only for bad aim at under 10-15 yards, but for failing to open up that tunnel vision under stress and know when NOT to fire.

Given the fact that some journalists have written that the attacker's handgun was already empty, there is a possibility that the police fired first and kept firing. I'd be surprised if no disciplinary actions are announced soon on the two officers.

So, how would YOU have handled the situation?

I'm no sheepdog, I'm a sheep with fangs. Big difference.

I'm a Sheepishlion!

So let's get this straight:

A murderer shot ONE person. ONE. With apparently no intentions on shooting anyone else from what I understand.

NYPD confront the guy and open fire, shooting 10 people, the murderer included.


Recap: this guy was not a mass murderer. He had no apparent intention to do so, nor did he attempt to do so. There was however a mass shooting ... by the cops. The cops shot 10 people, only one of whom was suspected of murder. That's fucked up.

whitey wrote:I'm sure the ambulance chasers are writing up lawsuits as we speak.

Nine innocent bystanders were shot by the people being paid to protect them. There sure as hell ought to be some lawsuits filed. If I was one of the people shot by the cops while walking down the street, you could bet your ass the City of New York would be funding my retirement.

"From about eight feet away, the officers confronted Mr. Johnson and when he pulled out his gun, they opened fire, shooting a total of 16 rounds. Mr. Johnson was killed and nine bystanders were wounded, perhaps all by police bullets."

Sheesh - 8 feet away and they missed at least 9 of 16 times.

Shit...this thing resonates on so many levels...

to those who carry, this should speak to the horrible consequences that can ensue. the need to train and practice realistically and still accept that things can go to hell on you.

it also screams that regardless of training, there are no professionals in a gunfight...there are those with immunity and those without.

The latest on this shooting is the original victim, Ercolino, was hit 5 times in the head, once (grazed) in the chest. The shooter Johnson had two rounds left in his .45 which apparently has an 8 round capacity. That would mean he likely never fired a round at the police. Johnson had nine gunshot wounds to the chest, three of those bullets being recovered, four passed through the chest. Two unaccounted for. Three bystanders were hit directly by police fire, the rest hit by ricochets The two policemen fired a total of sixteen shots. They hit Johnson with more than half their shots. In six seconds.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/26/us/new-yo ... index.html