The Liberal Gun Club Forum

SwampGrouch wrote:So, how would YOU have handled the situation?

Hard to say what I would do. I would probably duck and run.

But I am not an LEO. I've never been through the police training, certainly not firearms training under stress.

But I am studying police psychology out of personal interest and know that personality types is a stronger element in determining outcomes for police encounters than the best police training although by design it is meant to bring all personalities into the middle road for a better outcome.

Of the four categories of personalities generally observed in the police force, it's likely half of them would not have fired repeatedly like these two officers did in this situation. Neither officers had prior records of having been in a gun battle. There are no hard and fast rules when it comes to human responses but I mention this to bring up the fact that there are many different responses available even under stressful situations like that where a man pulls a pistol and points it at an officer of the peace.

As the investigation of this shooting concludes I believe we will learn that the perp never fired at the two officers.

That would imply that one officer fired first out of reaction and the second officer reacted to the sound of gunfire and opened up as well. But 7 and 9 rounds on a crowded street? That's a whole lot of trigger pulls in a few short seconds shown in the video. The NYPD has already acknowledged all 9 innocent wounded were shot by the two officers...

Again, such reactions appear indicative of tunnel vision which is exactly what the police academy training is supposed to practice OUT of officers. The training is designed to "stretch out time" under stressful situations so the best possible response takes place, increased awareness for one's surroundings, even decide whether you can give the perp a chance to put the weapon down. The training is meant to weed out the common man reaction of Spray 'n Pray.

In this case, I'm only saying the training didn't stick which resulted in a very unprofessional outcome.

ErikO wrote:

Awake wrote:Our Indian Spirit Guide is the Porcupine. Rather peaceful, but you don't want to mess with it.

On a very unrelated note, I did a visionquest in college and it seemed that wolverine decided she liked me. I blame her for my surly times.

Yeah, I've found the Otter Spirit has adopted me as a student... teaching me to remain flexible to enjoy life with family and friends. Oh, and to evade potential enemies.

'cause I'm a lover not a fighter...

ErikO wrote:

GuitarsandGuns wrote:Sounds like most of the wounded were from the police.
Maybe they only stopped firing when he went down.
Not for me to judge but -
It seems like the one thing you want to stay very far away from is the NYPD if you value your life.
Reminds me of - "Don't go near Lieutenants, they draw fire"

Events like this should give pause to those who would only trust guns in the hands of trained law enforcement personel. All the training in the world won't save folks behind/around your target if you take risky shots.

Contorted logic Erik, If this is what happens when a highly trained anti-terrorist unit, looks like shooting in a public place, what would happen if you or I were in their place? And of course, cowboy, we don't immunity from prosecution that the officers do. Been away, but wanted to hear how folks have reacted here to the NYC shooting.
LGC being a more rational bunch. I can't imagine what the freaks are saying. Probably that more armed civilians would have made all the difference in this situation.

Zenmason wrote:

ErikO wrote:

GuitarsandGuns wrote:Sounds like most of the wounded were from the police.
Maybe they only stopped firing when he went down.
Not for me to judge but -
It seems like the one thing you want to stay very far away from is the NYPD if you value your life.
Reminds me of - "Don't go near Lieutenants, they draw fire"

Events like this should give pause to those who would only trust guns in the hands of trained law enforcement personel. All the training in the world won't save folks behind/around your target if you take risky shots.

Contorted logic Erik, If this is what happens when a highly trained anti-terrorist unit, looks like shooting in a public place, what would happen if you or I were in their place? And of course, cowboy, we don't immunity from prosecution that the officers do. Been away, but wanted to hear how folks have reacted here to the NYC shooting.
LGC being a more rational bunch. I can't imagine what the freaks are saying. Probably that more armed civilians would have made all the difference in this situation.

Not so convaluted. While it may not happen here, I have heard from a lot of left-leaning folks on other sites that they would rather that only Police should be able to carry. NYC is a place where that happens and issues such as collateral damage tend to occur. I honestly don't know what I would have done differently if I were a NYCPD officer, but being a citizen with a gun in his hand in this instance would have been a death sentance.

I disagree with the end result which is a proposal to lower the 'allowable caliber' from .50" to .44" as some in the press have suggested.

ErikO wrote: I disagree with the end result which is a proposal to lower the 'allowable caliber' from .50" to .44" as some in the press have suggested.

Oh crap. Link please?

Does that have something to do with this case?

Fukshot wrote:

ErikO wrote: I disagree with the end result which is a proposal to lower the 'allowable caliber' from .50" to .44" as some in the press have suggested.

Oh crap. Link please?

Does that have something to do with this case?

I'll see if I can track down the comment that http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A05926&term=2011 and http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=S00086&term=2011 should be lowered to .44 from .50 in the wake of this shooting.

Well of course the .45 is a behemoth of a mankiller, but a .44 is just the same as a couple of .22s in rapid succession. Fucking morons need to read a book gun magazine.

Fukshot wrote:Well of course the .45 is a behemoth of a mankiller, but a .44 is just the same as a couple of .22s in rapid succession. Fucking morons need to read a book gun magazine.

I can only imagine the headaches of a Gun Owner Caucus in that state or any other group that tries to edumakate government types.

Bisbee wrote:

SwampGrouch wrote:So, how would YOU have handled the situation?

Hard to say what I would do. I would probably duck and run.

But I am not an LEO. I've never been through the police training, certainly not firearms training under stress.

But I am studying police psychology out of personal interest and know that personality types is a stronger element in determining outcomes for police encounters than the best police training although by design it is meant to bring all personalities into the middle road for a better outcome.

Of the four categories of personalities generally observed in the police force, it's likely half of them would not have fired repeatedly like these two officers did in this situation. Neither officers had prior records of having been in a gun battle. There are no hard and fast rules when it comes to human responses but I mention this to bring up the fact that there are many different responses available even under stressful situations like that where a man pulls a pistol and points it at an officer of the peace.

As the investigation of this shooting concludes I believe we will learn that the perp never fired at the two officers.

That would imply that one officer fired first out of reaction and the second officer reacted to the sound of gunfire and opened up as well. But 7 and 9 rounds on a crowded street? That's a whole lot of trigger pulls in a few short seconds shown in the video. The NYPD has already acknowledged all 9 innocent wounded were shot by the two officers...

Again, such reactions appear indicative of tunnel vision which is exactly what the police academy training is supposed to practice OUT of officers. The training is designed to "stretch out time" under stressful situations so the best possible response takes place, increased awareness for one's surroundings, even decide whether you can give the perp a chance to put the weapon down. The training is meant to weed out the common man reaction of Spray 'n Pray.

In this case, I'm only saying the training didn't stick which resulted in a very unprofessional outcome.

I've started and deleted this response four six times now. I'll just say this - I'm not happy with the outcome, but those cops got tossed into a no-win situation. (I do have to add, whether "the perp" fired or not is irrelevant. He drew a firearm.)

Now, I'm going to sit on my hands.

The perp didn't fire. The whole "it holds 8" the media keeps talking about is a lie. His gun holds 7+1. He shot his one victim 5 times. The cops then fired 16 rounds at him and 9 other people. He did not shoot back. Whether he even drew on them is questionable.

Let's put it another way, let's flip it around.

Let's say this happened in a state with strong self defense laws. Texas. Imagine for a moment instead of cops, it was 2 CCW holders who shot the guy and the 9 other people. Those 2 CCW holders would be in prison in a heartbeat for reckless endangerment.

Please: don't act like liberals.

Perp draws on cops = perp dead.

CDFingers

CDFingers wrote:Please: don't act like liberals.

Perp draws on cops = perp dead.

CDFingers

This does seem like death by cop. Shame he didn't just open a vein at home.

CDFingers wrote:Please: don't act like liberals.

Perp draws on cops = perp dead.

CDFingers

Perp draws on cops and 9 innocent people are shot by cops??

No.

I have no problem with the NYPD killing this guy - it looked like suicide-by-cop to me.
My problem is the staggering lack of fire discipline.

Contrast that story with today's Florida CCW who was confronted with two armed robbers, pops one twice in the chest, and then waits to assess before emptying the mag.

A 57-year-old civilian puts New York's finest to shame.

ErikO wrote:

CDFingers wrote:Please: don't act like liberals.

Perp draws on cops = perp dead.

CDFingers

This does seem like death by cop. Shame he didn't just open a vein at home.

Suicide by cop seems likely. Reportedly and demonstrably he had experience with firearms. When the cops closed in, he pulled out the pistol with one hand and didn't bother extending it, suggesting (in retrospect) questionable intent. Given how calm and deliberate his behavior was prior to the confrontation, it's unlikely that he panicked. His moral turpitude and selfishness is further emphasized by the fact that he chose to play this out on a busy sidewalk and not in an alley, away from pedestrians. Not that executing a man isn't enough evidence of depravity, but he didn't seem to be a spree killer.

The police response (I don't consider myself in a position [behind a keyboard] to declare anything with absolute certainty and reserve the right to be completely wrong) seemed lacking. Why did they chase what they knew to be an armed, homicidal suspect and engage him aggressively in a highly crowded midtown area? Did they fear a hostage situation? At an 8-10 ft (not yard) distance they should not have missed that much or fired that many rounds without consideration for what's beyond the target and a reassessment of the threat. If you watch the video, one of the officers approached the suspect with the weapon drawn in front of him (sweeping bystanders and possibly his partner) and proceeded to shoot on the move with strong hand only - there was no obvious reason for this, aside from panic and poor training. I've heard it reported that there was nobody behind the suspect. Considering how far a bullet travels and the scattering of the crowd in the video, I find that really hard to believe.

Again, these are just my opinions based on the very limited information available.

gaucheGlock wrote:My problem is the staggering lack of fire discipline.

This... is it a systemic problem of flawed or underdone training in both their firing discipline (rate of fire) *and* accuracy, or just an unfortunate single instance?