The Liberal Gun Club Forum

Scary.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/07/gun-safes/

Wow. That is some incompetent engineering.

Inadequate beta testing. They failed to include bright kids and thieves.

Several years ago I bought a $30 "fire safe" from lowes or somewhere. I thought that I'd made a decent purchase until I got home and pulled up youtube... The first result was someone picking it with similar household items...

Since then, I always do a bit of watching reviews before I buy. I've been only buying basic keyed lock safes and lockers since then, since I don't have much money to throw at the problem and end up with stamped sheet metal ones.

One thing that is on my list is to upgrade the various locks to Abloy brand locks(about the highest security mechanical locks available today) , available as simple replacements for many styles of lock. They can be ordered keyed alike, and then as you need more later, they too can be made to use your original key. You can also create masters and sub-master sets, which is really cool.

ADDED:
I figure I could probably re-key the 4-5 various personal locks I carry keys to, not including my pad locks, for under $300.

Using masters and submasters is pretty nifty. One could make it so that one could navigate from your front door, through every lock in the house, including your nightstand using only one key. You could also have a set of keys that allow access only to the front door, or the front door and selected locks within the home (garage?) for visitors to use.

Most locks sold today are a very bad joke, and if you want to retain confidence in your household locks, don't google bump keys...ever. I made one to gain access to a trigger lock that my sister in law made my brother attach to his revolver, then she threw away the key a week later. I got it on the first try. Abloy locks cannot be bumped.

https://securitysnobs.com/?gclid=CPHJ3r ... 7QodQFEAsw

Time and tools.

That said, yeesh.

Wow.

I have cheapie safes like these. Not the exact models, but probably just as bad.

Gun safes and cabinets sold in California, even the cheap ones, come with a "DOJ approved" sticker.

Here are the DOJ standards: http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/gunsafe

Note they don't say, "The lock shouldn't be pickable with a paper clip." I'm also willing to bet the DOJ does zero testing.

So, stick with combination locks and key locks?

Xela

Apparently so, but it looks like some of the safes can be modded to mitigate some of the issues.

Follow-up:

Since posting this thread, I've examined the internals of two electronic "safes" that I own (pictured below). Looking at the mechanism, it's painfully obvious why these designs are vulnerable. The solenoid that prevents the door from unlocking is very lightly spring loaded, and a slight bounce is sufficient to defeat it. Knowing the orientation of the solenoid, it was easy to bump the door open on the first try. Working blind would take a few extra seconds.

I suspect than any inexpensive safe using a solenoid is similarly vulnerable. If you've got one, test it for yourself.

Of course! I'm not sure why this is surprising.

Safes and lock boxes of any sort are not meant to keep people out indefinitely. They are meant to keep people out only long enough to be caught.

I thought this was common knowledge.

If you have a kid in the house, your firearm should be either on or immediately about you or accessible only through multiple barriers. Say, a good gun safe in a locked room.

I was picking locks on Sentry safes when I wasn't even 10. It wasn't anything difficult or illegal; I just got to playing around with a couple Sentry Safes my parents had.

The "safe" part is a misnomer. These are fire-retardant boxes with token locks. I keep important documents in them.

Even the heavy gun safes... I don't trust them, either. There's never been a safe that cannot be cracked, and though they're getting better about quieting the tumblers, I've found I can get most of them open with a stethoscope and anywhere from 15 minutes to 2 hours.

The portable safes make no sense, anyway. If someone wants to get into the safe, they will pick it up, carry it off, and use a Dremel or hacksaw on it.

Locks and safes buy time, nothing more.

Josh

Wabatuckian wrote:Of course! I'm not sure why this is surprising.

Safes and lock boxes of any sort are not meant to keep people out indefinitely. They are meant to keep people out only long enough to be caught.

I thought this was common knowledge.

No need for condescension. I'm fully aware that any security device can be defeated, and I'm pretty good at it myself. The surprise is the ease with which these devices can be opened is essentially zero time, with no skill or practice. That defies even the weakest definition of "keep people out long enough."

That's why IMO, when I was raising children I had my unloaded gun put up and away and ammo/mags hidden somewhere totally different, yet knowing exactly where they both were wouldn't take too long to access if needed.

Unrelated but worth mentioning.... Trigger locks are like putting bars on your windows with locks to open.. IF in the event of fire, chances are you and your loved ones are going to burn to death.

MtnMan wrote:

Wabatuckian wrote:Of course! I'm not sure why this is surprising.

Safes and lock boxes of any sort are not meant to keep people out indefinitely. They are meant to keep people out only long enough to be caught.

I thought this was common knowledge.

No need for condescension. I'm fully aware that any security device can be defeated, and I'm pretty good at it myself. The surprise is the ease with which these devices can be opened is essentially zero time, with no skill or practice. That defies even the weakest definition of "keep people out long enough."

Sir, no condescension meant. I'm sorry for offending.

There are no shortage of arguably idiotic studies. For example:

Are full or empty beer bottles sturdier and does their fracture-threshold suffice to break the human skull?
Bolliger SA, Ross S, Oesterhelweg L, Thali MJ, Kneubuehl BP.
Source

Centre for Forensic Imaging and Virtopsy, Institute of Forensic Medicine, University of Bern, IRM, Buehlstrasse 20, CH-3012 Bern, Switzerland. stephan.bolliger@irm.unibe.ch
Abstract

Beer bottles are often used in physical disputes. If the bottles break, they may give rise to sharp trauma. However, if the bottles remain intact, they may cause blunt injuries. In order to investigate whether full or empty standard half-litre beer bottles are sturdier and if the necessary breaking energy surpasses the minimum fracture-threshold of the human skull, we tested the fracture properties of such beer bottles in a drop-tower. Full bottles broke at 30 J impact energy, empty bottles at 40 J. These breaking energies surpass the minimum fracture-threshold of the human neurocranium. Beer bottles may therefore fracture the human skull and therefore serve as dangerous instruments in a physical dispute.
Comment in

'A response to "S.A. Bolliger, S. Ross, L. Oesterhelweg, M.J. Thali, B.P. Kneubuehl, Are full or empty beer bottles sturdier and does their fracture-threshold suffice to break the human skull?" [J Forensic Leg Med 16 (2009) 138-142]'. [J Forensic Leg Med. 2009]

PMID:
19239964
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19239964

All I did was Google "dumb studies" and that popped up!

I thought that "safe locks are flimsy" fell into the same category as "getting hit with a beer bottle hurts".

No offense intended. I'm sorry.

Josh

http://www.abloyusa.com/

Even the right inexpensive models of locker/lock box can be made more resistant to picking. Easily.

Not that it would prevent unauthorized access or theft -vs- a determined thief but I also keep trigger locks on all my guns even though they are in a safe as well. You might be able to get them but you wont easily be able to use them. The keys are stored elsewere in the house as is the ammo.