So, I went to a shoot and we ended up discussing the AR (which I'm not a fan of). I mentioned the fact that I'm a bigger fan of 7.62x39 over 5.56 but prefer 7.62x54R over that. (I like me some Nagants and my PSL.)

This, of course, brought an interesting reaction from a couple of guys there (one ex-mil, Afghan vet). How dare I impugn the awesomeness of the AR platform? They also wondered why I liked the Nagant, at which point I said the most successful sniper ever (I base this on number of kills) used one.

Of course, the most successful shooter (sniper) CAN'T NOT BE AMERICAN.

So here's a couple questions:

Most successful sniper should be based on kills or some other criteria? If kills, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4 has the record at over 400 confirmed (though the wiki article says 505) and that was in the dead of winter within a 100 day period.

Is this reaction just patriotism?

One of his favorite tactics was to spray troops in the open with a machine gun.

The guy's reaction is patriotism. Statistics don't lie the 7.62x54R is a hard hitting round. Even now I think the PSL along with the SVD are both formidable weapons in the right hands; also the SVD is important for introducing the designated marksman concept en masse to the Soviet Army and later to the Western armies as well.

Paladin wrote:One of his favorite tactics was to spray troops in the open with a machine gun.

Yep. And those aren't counted in his sniper kills.

KVoimakas wrote: Most successful sniper should be based on kills or some other criteria? If kills, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4 has the record at over 400 confirmed (though the wiki article says 505) and that was in the dead of winter within a 100 day period.

How fast did frozen Nazis move?

SwampGrouch wrote:

KVoimakas wrote: Most successful sniper should be based on kills or some other criteria? If kills, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4 has the record at over 400 confirmed (though the wiki article says 505) and that was in the dead of winter within a 100 day period.

How fast did frozen Nazis move?

He wasn't shooting Nazis. He was shooting Soviets. They knew all about General Winter.

Edit: though, they did have supply issues...still, I would assume (yes, I know) that they're better fighting during Winter than an ill-equipped bunch of Germans.

Zapp Brannigan wrote:The guy's reaction is patriotism. Statistics don't lie the 7.62x54R is a hard hitting round. Even now I think the PSL along with the SVD are both formidable weapons in the right hands; also the SVD is important for introducing the designated marksman concept en masse to the Soviet Army and later to the Western armies as well.

Now if only we could find SVDs for inexpensive. There's one on Gunbroker for $23k.

KVoimakas wrote:

Zapp Brannigan wrote:The guy's reaction is patriotism. Statistics don't lie the 7.62x54R is a hard hitting round. Even now I think the PSL along with the SVD are both formidable weapons in the right hands; also the SVD is important for introducing the designated marksman concept en masse to the Soviet Army and later to the Western armies as well.

Now if only we could find SVDs for inexpensive. There's one on Gunbroker for $23k.

You can get PSL's for less than a grand.... not quite the same thing, but I'd almost actually prefer the PSL over the SVD.

Also you can still find some of the tigr's over here for something like 3 grand.

gendoikari87 wrote:

KVoimakas wrote:

Zapp Brannigan wrote:The guy's reaction is patriotism. Statistics don't lie the 7.62x54R is a hard hitting round. Even now I think the PSL along with the SVD are both formidable weapons in the right hands; also the SVD is important for introducing the designated marksman concept en masse to the Soviet Army and later to the Western armies as well.

Now if only we could find SVDs for inexpensive. There's one on Gunbroker for $23k.

You can get PSL's for less than a grand.... not quite the same thing, but I'd almost actually prefer the PSL over the SVD.

Also you can still find some of the tigr's over here for something like 3 grand.

I like mine:

KVoimakas wrote:

Zapp Brannigan wrote:The guy's reaction is patriotism. Statistics don't lie the 7.62x54R is a hard hitting round. Even now I think the PSL along with the SVD are both formidable weapons in the right hands; also the SVD is important for introducing the designated marksman concept en masse to the Soviet Army and later to the Western armies as well.

Now if only we could find SVDs for inexpensive. There's one on Gunbroker for $23k.

The VEPR has come up before:
http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/phpBB3 ... =6&t=13687

Xela

KVoimakas wrote:So, I went to a shoot and we ended up discussing the AR (which I'm not a fan of). I mentioned the fact that I'm a bigger fan of 7.62x39 over 5.56 but prefer 7.62x54R over that. (I like me some Nagants and my PSL.)

This, of course, brought an interesting reaction from a couple of guys there (one ex-mil, Afghan vet). How dare I impugn the awesomeness of the AR platform? They also wondered why I liked the Nagant, at which point I said the most successful sniper ever (I base this on number of kills) used one.

Of course, the most successful shooter (sniper) CAN'T NOT BE AMERICAN.

So here's a couple questions:

Most successful sniper should be based on kills or some other criteria? If kills, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4 has the record at over 400 confirmed (though the wiki article says 505) and that was in the dead of winter within a 100 day period.

Is this reaction just patriotism?

Besides patriotism, I think the mystique of America as a nation of riflemen, and the aura that American sharpshooters, and snipers have are hard to overcome in some people's minds.

On top of that, the sniper story SELLS, as evidenced by the recent SEAL sniper book, for example.

Xela

Do long range snipers even use an AR platform? I thought something in the .30 cal range would be prefered, with enough powder behind it (not the baby 7.62s).

You could shoot an AR10, but that seems like a lot of gun to hump for a sniper.

There are some good NATO platforms for sniping, but I don't think AR is at the top of that list.

Makes me wonder about unpublished/classified lists, CIA, KGB/FSB, Mossad, mercenaries, and other similar secret (and ultra, or semi-secret) entities/agencies.

How about irregular forces, guerrillas?
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ ... men-in-war

There is so much out there that is unpublished, undocumented and unaccounted for...maybe for good reason.

Some may not want to talk about it at all. I'm reminded of the story of "Arrow" which came up on Duke's post about his experiences in the last Sarajevo unpleasantness:
http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/phpBB3 ... =13&t=6748

I still remember the last detail/quote I found about her experiences:

"Her code name was Strela, (Arrow) a Serb girl of 20 yrs fighting with the Bosnian army as an anti-sniper sniper. When Guerlain met her she was crying. Not remembering how many she had killed she later injured herself to quit her job."

Xela

Case in point, I would hate to be this guy at the end of the Syrian Civil War:
http://www.military.com/video/specialti ... 561143001/

Xela

Xela wrote:Case in point, I would hate to be this guy at the end of the Syrian Civil War:
http://www.military.com/video/specialti ... 561143001/

Xela

http://www.military.com/video/specialti ... 252026001/

Cameraman sniped by sniper he zoomed in on.

ErikO wrote:

Xela wrote:Case in point, I would hate to be this guy at the end of the Syrian Civil War:
http://www.military.com/video/specialti ... 561143001/

Xela

http://www.military.com/video/specialti ... 252026001/

Cameraman sniped by sniper he zoomed in on.

Yep. That's the one I saw first, then I noticed the one on my post.

I have a feeling it won't be long before we start having the obligatory discussion now...."these are not real snipers."

Xela

God all of that is just sick.

gendoikari87 wrote:God all of that is just sick.

Yep. Wars are never pretty, and civil wars especially.

Notice this...

If we believe this is a bad guy turned good:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -kill.html

More bad guys simply come in:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/wo ... 6254330519

That's the thing most gun-ho sniper "fans" don't get. It's a very dirty business.

Xela

When it comes to ranking people like snipers, raw numbers don't really tell the story. To me it is the difficulty of the kill that counts. Maybe it comes to my definition of 'sniper', and I am thinking more in terms of 'assassin'. Someone that is assigned a target, spends time tracking it, takes the target at a long distance, has escape and evasion skills, etc is closer my definition of sniper. So the 'greatest' sniper may be someone that only has 10 kills... but amazing kills.

Awake wrote:...Maybe it comes to my definition of 'sniper'...

Excellent point Awake. While I was (over?) expanding the definition, you wisely re-adjust and re-focus on the term. Maybe KVoimakas can give us some more parameters and go from there.

Xela

The best sniper is the one who stays at home.

KVoimakas wrote:

SwampGrouch wrote:

KVoimakas wrote: Most successful sniper should be based on kills or some other criteria? If kills, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4 has the record at over 400 confirmed (though the wiki article says 505) and that was in the dead of winter within a 100 day period.

How fast did frozen Nazis move?

He wasn't shooting Nazis. He was shooting Soviets. They knew all about General Winter.

Edit: though, they did have supply issues...still, I would assume (yes, I know) that they're better fighting during Winter than an ill-equipped bunch of Germans.

My bad for popping off with a wisecrack without actually reading the piece.

Rooskies survive winter, Finns thrive in it.

Xela wrote:

Awake wrote:...Maybe it comes to my definition of 'sniper'...

Excellent point Awake. While I was (over?) expanding the definition, you wisely re-adjust and re-focus on the term. Maybe KVoimakas can give us some more parameters and go from there.

Xela

That was kind of my point. What makes a good sniper?

I would like to point out, that his kills were done with iron sights because he didn't like scopes...

sent from my Rezound

It takes a great hunter to make a great sniper. Simo was first and foremost a great hunter.

SwampGrouch wrote:Rooskies survive winter, Finns thrive in it.

When we left Russia, the Russians were wearing fur hats and coats.

When we got to Helsinki, the Finns were wearing no hats and cloth coats. And it was colder.