At this point, I'd rather hold Obama accountable for his deviation from his 2008 campaign than fight Romney at every turn for the civil rights we have left.

Shaming a man into doing what he'd say he'd do is easier than trying to nail a damned fluke to a board by its head.

That being said, I just sent a note to Candidate Obama to see if he can help us by replaceing POTUS Obama with the guy we voted in. If he shows up, I'll gladly stand on line for five hours again to vote for him. I never voted for W and I didn't want 12 years of that chimp.

Progurt wrote:Party loyalists are like white blood cells. They'll attack anything they perceive as foreign, whether it's a heart transplant or an infection, whether they're killing the body or saving it.

Ah yes, the good old Communist party.
When I was in Russia, the least-liked people were the Commies.

Aren't you glad you're not a loyalist. I think you are a true believer. I know you believe you are always right.

You're not.

The biggest complaint we heard in the Soviet Union was that their nation was idealistic. They looked at the US and thought we had a better system because ours was based on Law whereas theirs was based on ideology which was more subject to whim. (I have this on tape).

I worked for a crusader for 4 years, they even made him a knight of Malta. This all seems too familiar.

Fukshot wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:Jesus, the republican pitchfork really is scaring everyone to voting for the corporatists.

Yep. I'm scared. Are you not?

I'm scared of the corporatists, both sides. The republicans are just the pitchfork used to scare us into accepting the main corporatist party in the Blue side without question, so that we don't vote for someone that would actually do what's right. Sad thing is. it works.

irishman wrote:

lemur wrote:

irishman wrote: We are not children and we can not get our way on ever issue.

Implication: Those who won't vote for Obama are children and want to have their way on every issue. Ad hominem and strawman in the span of one sentence... bravo!

So Fecken sorry

I wonder how this discussion is going over on the conservative boards. I know they all think romney is some liberal plant...

GuitarsandGuns wrote:

irishman wrote:

lemur wrote: Implication: Those who won't vote for Obama are children and want to have their way on every issue. Ad hominem and strawman in the span of one sentence... bravo!

So Fecken sorry

The ringtail made the leprechaun drop trow again. This place never fails to put a smile on my face.

alright, time for a serious question: why are you afraid of romney? what are you afraid he's going to do specifically?

gendoikari87 wrote:I wonder how this discussion is going over on the conservative boards. I know they all think romney is some liberal plant...

I can remember when the wonderment that was the Missouri Primary blew through town. There were arrests at one of the GOP gathering at the next county west of me for assault. Thank goodness that those bozos forgot Reagan's 11th Commandment: no dirty play against other GOP members. Guess Lee Atwater missed that one as well, there were tire tracks all over other Republicans that didn't get out of The Gipper's way...

I'm still trying to figure out who was the last great Democratic POTUS, Eisenhower or Nixon. WEe've seen things they wanted to get passed go into law over the last four years so its hard to say.

GuitarsandGuns wrote:

Progurt wrote:Party loyalists are like white blood cells. They'll attack anything they perceive as foreign, whether it's a heart transplant or an infection, whether they're killing the body or saving it.

Ah yes, the good old Communist party.
When I was in Russia, the least-liked people were the Commies.

Aren't you glad you're not a loyalist. I think you are a true believer. I know you believe you are always right.

You're not.

The biggest complaint we heard in the Soviet Union was that their nation was idealistic. They looked at the US and thought we had a better system because ours was based on Law whereas theirs was based on ideology which was more subject to whim. (I have this on tape).

I worked for a crusader for 4 years, they even made him a knight of Malta. This all seems too familiar.

When I post something particularly damning of the Administration on facebook, and that's a frequent occurrence, Gendo usually says I should post it here. I don't, because I've realized that people so motivated by fear and so easily controlled by the kabuki theater will never change their minds through anything I'd say. You're not worth the time and headache. You'll keep doing the same thing centrist liberals have been doing in the US for decades as things get worse and worse, and when things keep getting worse and worse, you'll blame us on the left for not clapping our hands and believing in fairies enough.

Maybe someday when I'm weighed down by the utter failures of my generation to affect any meaningful changes, I'll give in and become a cheerful party man, and tell myself I'm just being pragmatic and a realist. Seems to be what's happened to everyone else who used to give a shit. Although, with my luck, this whole house of cards is just going to collapse around us and that'll be all she wrote.

There was a time in this country when both major political parties supported slavery. The rebellious political ideologues who demanded an end to slavery turned their backs on the major parties, and formed their own political party. This was the Free Soil Party... it didn't accomplish a lot in the 1848 or 1852 elections. Ran some as a spoiler on the national and some state races. But the abolitionists didn't stop there. They formed another political party, in 1854, in protest of the Kansas-Nebraska Act. They were told they were idealists, that they were unrealistic, that they could never end slavery. A fair estimation, as they hadn't had a lot of success up to that point. But 6 years later, the candidate from that political party became President. The party was the Republicans, and the president was Lincoln. Less than a decade after the formation of the Republican Party, the Emancipation Proclamation was signed.

Taking a stand matters. If people had just accepted what their political leaders deigned to give them, we'd still have slaves and women still wouldn't be able to vote. You may not win every battle you ever fight, but you lose every battle you never fight.

ErikO wrote:I'm still trying to figure out who was the last great Democratic POTUS, Eisenhower or Nixon. WEe've seen things they wanted to get passed go into law over the last four years so its hard to say.

I'm inclined to give Kennedy credit for being a Democrat president, he had to die before we really jumped into Vietnam. Ike would have been horrified to see how subservient the Democrat-Republicans are to the military establishment. Nixon would probably be pissed off that we pushed him out of office for less than presidents these days get away with every fucking day.

My Obama vote (in Texas) will go straight to the trash can (thank you, Electoral College). Just like last time.

So, I'm still thinking about voting for Rocky Anderson just as symbolic gesture to both parties.

Xela

gendoikari87 wrote:alright, time for a serious question: why are you afraid of romney? what are you afraid he's going to do specifically?

SCOTUS.

gendoikari87 wrote:alright, time for a serious question: why are you afraid of romney? what are you afraid he's going to do specifically?

Well, he'll flipflop back and reintroduce the AWB based off of what he did as Governor. He'll put the weight of a fascistic Executive Branch behind DOMA. He'll abuse the nasty bits of NDAA against those he doesn't like. He'll continue the curtailment of our rights that has been the course for the last three decades. He'll write tax incentives to lower the luxury tax rate, remove any safeguards against vulture capitalists and will cut all federal funding to help the less fortunate.

The last one is based off of the Mormon idea that God will show his favor by bestowing riches upon you from heaven. The poor have angered god and are benieth contempt for it. They did not prepare so therefore deserve no assistance unless they go to the Mormon Church for redemption.

Progurt wrote:

GuitarsandGuns wrote:

Progurt wrote:Party loyalists are like white blood cells. They'll attack anything they perceive as foreign, whether it's a heart transplant or an infection, whether they're killing the body or saving it.

Ah yes, the good old Communist party.
When I was in Russia, the least-liked people were the Commies.

Aren't you glad you're not a loyalist. I think you are a true believer. I know you believe you are always right.

You're not.

The biggest complaint we heard in the Soviet Union was that their nation was idealistic. They looked at the US and thought we had a better system because ours was based on Law whereas theirs was based on ideology which was more subject to whim. (I have this on tape).

I worked for a crusader for 4 years, they even made him a knight of Malta. This all seems too familiar.

When I post something particularly damning of the Administration on facebook, and that's a frequent occurrence, Gendo usually says I should post it here. I don't, because I've realized that people so motivated by fear and so easily controlled by the kabuki theater will never change their minds through anything I'd say. You're not worth the time and headache. You'll keep doing the same thing centrist liberals have been doing in the US for decades as things get worse and worse, and when things keep getting worse and worse, you'll blame us on the left for not clapping our hands and believing in fairies enough.

Maybe someday when I'm weighed down by the utter failures of my generation to affect any meaningful changes, I'll give in and become a cheerful party man, and tell myself I'm just being pragmatic and a realist. Seems to be what's happened to everyone else who used to give a shit. Although, with my luck, this whole house of cards is just going to collapse around us and that'll be all she wrote.

There was a time in this country when both major political parties supported slavery. The rebellious political ideologues who demanded an end to slavery turned their backs on the major parties, and formed their own political party. This was the Free Soil Party... it didn't accomplish a lot in the 1848 or 1852 elections. Ran some as a spoiler on the national and some state races. But the abolitionists didn't stop there. They formed another political party, in 1854, in protest of the Kansas-Nebraska Act. They were told they were idealists, that they were unrealistic, that they could never end slavery. A fair estimation, as they hadn't had a lot of success up to that point. But 6 years later, the candidate from that political party became President. The party was the Republicans, and the president was Lincoln. Less than a decade after the formation of the Republican Party, the Emancipation Proclamation was signed.

Taking a stand matters. If people had just accepted what their political leaders deigned to give them, we'd still have slaves and women still wouldn't be able to vote. You may not win every battle you ever fight, but you lose every battle you never fight.

Damn. Good one progurt.

wlewisiii wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:alright, time for a serious question: why are you afraid of romney? what are you afraid he's going to do specifically?

SCOTUS.

Meh. In my 40 years of life I've seen SCOTUS candidates that claimed to be Strict Constitutionalists turn into Idealogue Reformists. I've seen 'strong Liberal' justaces turn out to be more in tune with teh GOP party line.

One thing I would like to see is the Senate feel confident enough that they can proove that Thomas' wife causes a conflict of interest and that he needs to be released from his duties so she can continue to make him money lobbying for Anthem and other healthcare providers that won't see anything but profit from the changes in 2014.

Progurt wrote: (snip)

So sorry we disappoint you. Boo fucking hoo. But I don't have the time or wealth to be an anarchist fanboi.

A centrist President who wants to be re-elected will select centrist judges.

And even the arch-conservative judge selected as Chief Justice by arch-conservative Dubya was the deciding vote in favor of the ACA.

On top of that, conservatives don't always nominate conservative judges; Sandra Day O'Connor was one of Reagan's judges. In, incidentally, his first term.

Next.

Progurt wrote:When I post something particularly damning of the Administration on facebook, and that's a frequent occurrence, Gendo usually says I should post it here. I don't, because I've realized that people so motivated by fear and so easily controlled by the kabuki theater will never change their minds through anything I'd say.

Continuing to accuse people of being motivated by fear is a belittling attitude.

Progurt wrote:You're not worth the time and headache.

Sounds like you are talking to all of us.
I respected you until you said that. Now I don't.

Now I must leave the thread.

People calling me fearful makes me angry.

ErikO wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:alright, time for a serious question: why are you afraid of romney? what are you afraid he's going to do specifically?

Well, he'll flipflop back and reintroduce the AWB based off of what he did as Governor.

Fact, Obama doesn't have the best of records on gun control before becoming president either.

He'll put the weight of a fascistic Executive Branch behind DOMA.

With such a large majority in favor of gay marriage this would be a political death sentance to him and his party, so no.

He'll abuse the nasty bits of NDAA against those he doesn't like.

Wrong again bob, the NDAA (thank god) was struck down, also it was Obama that put the worst parts in there, or at least ASKED to have them put in.

He'll continue the curtailment of our rights that has been the course for the last three decades.

Obama's been doing the same thing

He'll write tax incentives to lower the luxury tax rate, remove any safeguards against vulture capitalists and will cut all federal funding to help the less fortunate.

Obama extended the Bush tax cuts, and has basically let the vultures roam free. without mind you fear of prosecution.

wlewisiii wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:alright, time for a serious question: why are you afraid of romney? what are you afraid he's going to do specifically?

SCOTUS.

Supreme court was long ago bought and paid for, but I can almost see your point. Otherwise this:

Progurt wrote:A centrist President who wants to be re-elected will select centrist judges.

And even the arch-conservative judge selected as Chief Justice by arch-conservative Dubya was the deciding vote in favor of the ACA.

On top of that, conservatives don't always nominate conservative judges; Sandra Day O'Connor was one of Reagan's judges. In, incidentally, his first term.

Next.

you don't win the long game by giving into the demands of tyrants and moronic nutcases, you win by rejecting out of hand that which is wrong.

Continuing to accuse people of being motivated by fear is a belittling attitude.

People calling me a fearful make me angry.

The truth is often painful. For instance, Obama OR romney will win this election, and whatever the minor differences are, the truth is that whoever is elected will continue to piss on the constitution, and make war on the middle class without us having the ability to fight back.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Fukshot wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:Jesus, the republican pitchfork really is scaring everyone to voting for the corporatists.

Yep. I'm scared. Are you not?

I'm scared of the corporatists, both sides. The republicans are just the pitchfork used to scare us into accepting the main corporatist party in the Blue side without question, so that we don't vote for someone that would actually do what's right. Sad thing is. it works.

So just vote for anyone other than Mitt or Obama, and whom would that be ?
It's a little late for a third party candidate now is it not, so just stand by and throw a vote away and let the teaparty take over, that will work out for us all !

I think a 3rd party Idea is great isn't that what the tea party is ? So Obama is not your cup of tea,hell just stand back and watch this 3rd party take over it great so far, we have people like Rand Paul, Joe Walsh, and so on, this is the new and improved 3rd party !

I will take my chance with the Dems and Obama ! And if my grammar and punctuation don't suit you, sorry I am not as well groomed in education as some! But I do have some common sense from my 60 years on this great late planet earth.

I am of my own opinion,and did not mean to stir up a pot of Shite !
We all have or own Ideas and that's okay with me Vote your heart..........

wait, so the tea party can influence the republicans but another 3rd party can't influence the democrats?

You all can argue under who the nation will crash slower, meanwhile I'll be busy trying to figure out how to avoid the crash. tootles.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Continuing to accuse people of being motivated by fear is a belittling attitude.

People calling me a fearful make me angry.

The truth is often painful.

So now I don't know the truth? The truth is I'm fearful?
You just called me fearful again. Can't you see it? I sure can.

So I'm angry at you too. You are certainly a tag team.

You don't seem to be able to stop trying to needle me.

You have succeeded Gendo. I don't ever want to talk to you any more.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Fukshot wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:Jesus, the republican pitchfork really is scaring everyone to voting for the corporatists.

Yep. I'm scared. Are you not?

I'm scared of the corporatists, both sides. The republicans are just the pitchfork used to scare us into accepting the main corporatist party in the Blue side without question, so that we don't vote for someone that would actually do what's right. Sad thing is. it works.

That pitchfork is actually sharp. I'll not sit quietly and be impaled on it for the greater good of people who are just now "ready" to think about maybe making people like me equal under the law, as long as we don't flaunt ourselves out in public.

Your thoughtful big-picture objectivity is just privilege. You can pretend that both sides are just as bad because the differences aren't a threat to you. Must be nice.

I'd be happy with a 2nd party to choose from let alone a third.

At this point, bewteen Citizens United and the Electoral Barons - er - College, I have zero voice beyond the shrill noise from my Very Red State that has been bought and paid for by the Kochies.

Call me an idiot, I don't care. I'm paying closer attention to my local politicians to try and change stuff here for the better. Get Resident Aliens the ability to pay Missouri to grant them their right to armed self defense, get wifes protection from husbands who legally do not have to take no as an answer, start up a Democratic Gun Owners Caucus. Plant a garden. Finish my AR build. Figure out where to send my son to school so he can actually learn something besides passing tests...

Fukshot wrote:
That pitchfork is actually sharp. I'll not sit quietly and be impaled on it for the greater good of people who are just now "ready" to think about maybe making people like me equal under the law, as long as we don't flaunt ourselves out in public.

Your thoughtful big-picture objectivity is just privilege. You can pretend that both sides are just as bad because the differences aren't a threat to you. Must be nice.

yeah because the threat of being thrown in jail for speaking my mind isn't at all a threat to me. Way to show how the upper class uses social issues to control and divide the middle class fukshot.

The bankers must be laughing themselves to the bank for how well they've been able to control us.

GuitarsandGuns wrote: So now I don't know the truth? The truth is I'm fearful?
You just called me fearful again. Can't you see it? I sure can.

So I'm angry at you too. You are certainly a tag team.

You don't seem to be able to stop trying to needle me.

You have succeeded Gendo. I don't ever want to talk to you any more.

sad to hear but so be it. But in 4 years when you are all voting for Bush IV who's running as a democrat don't come running to me crying about how the options are still so bad.

And in 12 years when all our rights are gone, taken away by "democrats", don't give me that bullshit about how the republicans would have been worse when we have nothing left.

Play the short game if you want, by god, that's your right, but I won't have any sympathy for you. Meanwhile, i'll play the long game.