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Romneycare/Obamacare
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:13 am
by Queen
Figured I could ask this here without creating a hate/rant filled thread.
I'm having a really hard time figuring out why many (most?) conservatives are against this; isn't it the same thing Romney did in MA?
I don't dip into politics much, but this topic has me confused.
Re: Romneycare/Obamacare
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:17 am
by Inquisitor
Very similar.
Re: Romneycare/Obamacare
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:18 am
by gendoikari87
Pax wrote:Figured I could ask this here without creating a hate/rant filled thread.
I'm having a really hard time figuring out why many (most?) conservatives are against this; isn't it the same thing Romney did in MA?
I don't dip into politics much, but this topic has me confused.
yes, they are near identical. People are pissed off because the other team did it. Policy does not matter anymore, it's who does it that matters. If republicans had done it the democrats would be up in arms about it. For a large majority in this country, critical thinking is dead, team politics is all that matters.
Re: Romneycare/Obamacare
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:22 am
by Paladin
Someone was arguing that if the states have it it would be entirely different than the Fed government. I'm sorry I trust my state a whole lot less than the Fed.
Re: Romneycare/Obamacare
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:28 am
by Queen
Paladin wrote:Someone was arguing that if the states have it it would be entirely different than the Fed government. I'm sorry I trust my state a whole lot less than the Fed.
Right there with you! IL would find a way to spend the money on something else (maybe another trial for a governor) and then blame the people without insurance for the problem.
Re: Romneycare/Obamacare
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:35 am
by beto
sad but true. A comedian once suggested that Obama nominate Mitch Mcconner ,Senate minority leader, for the Supreme Court so he could hear Mitch denounce himself as out of touch with the American people. Why did the Republicans hate Clinton, he stole their welfare reform program. It is not the policy but who proposes it. Obamacare is a Republican pro insurance industry program. Other Republicans have proposed it as a model for national health insurance until Obama picked it up. The country is almost as divided just before the Civil War.
gendoikari87 wrote:Pax wrote:Figured I could ask this here without creating a hate/rant filled thread.
I'm having a really hard time figuring out why many (most?) conservatives are against this; isn't it the same thing Romney did in MA?
I don't dip into politics much, but this topic has me confused.
yes, they are near identical. People are pissed off because the other team did it. Policy does not matter anymore, it's who does it that matters. If republicans had done it the democrats would be up in arms about it. For a large majority in this country, critical thinking is dead, team politics is all that matters.
Re: Romneycare/Obamacare
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:37 am
by gendoikari87
beto wrote: sad but true. A comedian once suggested that Obama nominate Mitch Mcconner ,Senate minority leader, for the Supreme Court so he could hear Mitch denounce himself as out of touch with the American people. Why did the Republicans hate Clinton, he stole their welfare reform program. It is not the policy but who proposes it. Obamacare is a Republican pro insurance industry program. Other Republicans have proposed it as a model for national health insurance until Obama picked it up. The country is almost as divided just before the Civil War.
true, however we are no longer as divided along territorial bounds. This I think a lot of people miss.
Re: Romneycare/Obamacare
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:40 am
by ErikO
gendoikari87 wrote:beto wrote: sad but true. A comedian once suggested that Obama nominate Mitch Mcconner ,Senate minority leader, for the Supreme Court so he could hear Mitch denounce himself as out of touch with the American people. Why did the Republicans hate Clinton, he stole their welfare reform program. It is not the policy but who proposes it. Obamacare is a Republican pro insurance industry program. Other Republicans have proposed it as a model for national health insurance until Obama picked it up. The country is almost as divided just before the Civil War.
true, however we are no longer as divided along territorial bounds. This I think a lot of people miss.
The truely funny thing is that if Teddy hadn't fought so hard to Medicaid, we'd have had this under Nixon.
The responce I get from that nugget when I bring it up with my conservative friends is that Nixon was a commie sympathiser, hence his close relationship with China.
Re: Romneycare/Obamacare
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:42 am
by gendoikari87
You know, sometimes i think: "why, oh why didn't I take the BLUE pill".
Re: Romneycare/Obamacare
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:44 am
by Queen
ErikO wrote:
The truely funny thing is that if Teddy hadn't fought so hard to Medicaid, we'd have had this under Nixon.
The responce I get from that nugget when I bring it up with my conservative friends is that Nixon was a commie sympathiser, hence his close relationship with China.
This is the stuff that gives me an actual headache. How do we ever have a sensible, factual, forward moving conversation, when each side believes lies are truth????
Re: Romneycare/Obamacare
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:48 am
by ErikO
Pax wrote:ErikO wrote:
The truely funny thing is that if Teddy hadn't fought so hard to Medicaid, we'd have had this under Nixon.
The responce I get from that nugget when I bring it up with my conservative friends is that Nixon was a commie sympathiser, hence his close relationship with China.
This is the stuff that gives me an actual headache. How do we ever have a sensible, factual, forward moving conversation, when each side believes lies are truth????
http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/stories ... posal.aspx
CHIP does have a lot in common with the ACA. Or did I miss something?
Re: Romneycare/Obamacare
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:55 am
by Queen
Seems the same to me. I almost think it's got more to do with being perceived as winning, than anything to do with the business of running the country. *sigh*
Re: Romneycare/Obamacare
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:10 am
by ErikO
Pax wrote:
Seems the same to me. I almost think it's got more to do with being perceived as winning, than anything to do with the business of running the country. *sigh*
"Who cares what happens as long as we get that guy out of office" is the rallying cry of the GOP.
They know that their masters' estates on North Hampton will stand no matter what noises they make on the floor of the House or Senate.
Re: Romneycare/Obamacare
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:55 am
by Gnigma
I don't trust state administered plans, either. When Tennessee introduced Tenn-Care, the state administered version of Medicare, they simply assigned people to the plan until the estimated money ran out, then closed it. If you didn't have coverage, you were just as screwed as if it had never been changed. I haven't lived in Tennessee for ove twelve years now, FWIW.
Re: Romneycare/Obamacare
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:57 am
by Catalyst
Paladin wrote:Someone was arguing that if the states have it it would be entirely different than the Fed government. I'm sorry I trust my state a whole lot less than the Fed.
Which is funny considering CCW privileges very so much across the nation and that is something that is left up to states. Perhaps if we relate healthcare in terms of CCW the Conservatives might begin to understand?
Re: Romneycare/Obamacare
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:25 pm
by Progurt
gendoikari87 wrote:yes, they are near identical. People are pissed off because the other team did it. Policy does not matter anymore, it's who does it that matters. If republicans had done it the democrats would be up in arms about it. For a large majority in this country, critical thinking is dead, team politics is all that matters.
^This.
Actually "Obamacare", specifically the individual mandate, came straight from the Republican fight against "Hillarycare" in the 90s. See
here:
ROMNEY: Actually, Newt, we got the idea of an individual mandate from you.
GINGRICH: That’s not true. You got it from the Heritage Foundation.
ROMNEY: Yes, we got it from you, and you got it from the Heritage Foundation and from you.
GINGRICH: Wait a second. What you just said is not true. You did not get that from me. You got it from the Heritage Foundation.
ROMNEY: And you never supported them?
GINGRICH: I agree with them, but I’m just saying, what you said to this audience just now plain wasn’t true.
(CROSSTALK)
ROMNEY: OK. Let me ask, have you supported in the past an individual mandate?
GINGRICH: I absolutely did with the Heritage Foundation against Hillarycare.
ROMNEY: You did support an individual mandate?
ROMNEY: Oh, OK. That’s what I’m saying. We got the idea from you and the Heritage Foundation.
GINGRICH: OK. A little broader.
ROMNEY: OK.
Because if you're going to require that insurance companies cover everyone, you have to require that everyone purchase insurance.
This is the only way, the
only way, to have any kind of health care reform and preserve the for-profit insurance industry.
Re: Romneycare/Obamacare
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:31 pm
by ErikO
Progurt wrote:gendoikari87 wrote:yes, they are near identical. People are pissed off because the other team did it. Policy does not matter anymore, it's who does it that matters. If republicans had done it the democrats would be up in arms about it. For a large majority in this country, critical thinking is dead, team politics is all that matters.
^This.
Actually "Obamacare", specifically the individual mandate, came straight from the Republican fight against "Hillarycare" in the 90s. See
here:
ROMNEY: Actually, Newt, we got the idea of an individual mandate from you.
GINGRICH: That’s not true. You got it from the Heritage Foundation.
ROMNEY: Yes, we got it from you, and you got it from the Heritage Foundation and from you.
GINGRICH: Wait a second. What you just said is not true. You did not get that from me. You got it from the Heritage Foundation.
ROMNEY: And you never supported them?
GINGRICH: I agree with them, but I’m just saying, what you said to this audience just now plain wasn’t true.
(CROSSTALK)
ROMNEY: OK. Let me ask, have you supported in the past an individual mandate?
GINGRICH: I absolutely did with the Heritage Foundation against Hillarycare.
ROMNEY: You did support an individual mandate?
ROMNEY: Oh, OK. That’s what I’m saying. We got the idea from you and the Heritage Foundation.
GINGRICH: OK. A little broader.
ROMNEY: OK.
Because if you're going to require that insurance companies cover everyone, you have to require that everyone purchase insurance.
This is the only way, the
only way, to have any kind of health care reform and preserve the for-profit insurance industry.
And the House is set to vote on HR 1648
http://turner.house.gov/UploadedFiles/H ... l_Text.pdf to start the repeal of the Individual Mandate.
Re: Romneycare/Obamacare
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:39 pm
by Progurt
If they succeed, they'll destroy the insurance industry.
Without a mandate, healthy people won't get insurance, and the industry will have to cover chronically ill people with no rescission and no lifetime limits. Particularly as that bill is written, since it only specifically affects the mandate.
Godspeed, moonbats.
Re: Romneycare/Obamacare
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:36 pm
by gendoikari87
which will inturn create the need for government universal healthcare. Well played Obama, well played.
Re: Romneycare/Obamacare
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:47 pm
by ErikO
I'm still trying to find the 3rd dimentional chess move from the NDAA 2012 that is positive and not a power grab by the Executive Branch...
Re: Romneycare/Obamacare
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:01 pm
by gendoikari87
ErikO wrote:I'm still trying to find the 3rd dimentional chess move from the NDAA 2012 that is positive and not a power grab by the Executive Branch...
Maybe Obama really is the ninja socialist the right wing claims he is and in his second terms plans to revive the NDAA and take all private property from the corporations? Am I being way too optimistic here?
Re: Romneycare/Obamacare
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:24 pm
by Progurt
gendoikari87 wrote:ErikO wrote:I'm still trying to find the 3rd dimentional chess move from the NDAA 2012 that is positive and not a power grab by the Executive Branch...
Maybe Obama really is the ninja socialist the right wing claims he is and in his second terms plans to revive the NDAA and take all private property from the corporations? Am I being way too optimistic here?
Yes.
The justification given by the apologists for the NDAA is that the mean bad old Republicans in Congress were going to pass it anyway, so we need to vote for more Congressional Democrats to check Republican power plays like the NDAA.
Re: Romneycare/Obamacare
Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:06 pm
by chevalier
On the first page Veteran said "Obamacare is a Republican pro insurance industry program." I don't buy that as the insurance companies HAVE to hate losing the preexisting condition way of getting rid of expensive insureds, as well as not being able to have a maximum lifetime benefit amount. When I heard Anthem (supposed to be nonprofit Blue Cross) had that I vowed never to take their insurance again. Just those two items will cost the insurance companies BIG money. They may have to go into another line of work while they still have money to invest. HA!
Re: Romneycare/Obamacare
Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:58 pm
by Progurt
chevalier wrote:On the first page Veteran said "Obamacare is a Republican pro insurance industry program." I don't buy that as the insurance companies HAVE to hate losing the preexisting condition way of getting rid of expensive insureds, as well as not being able to have a maximum lifetime benefit amount. When I heard Anthem (supposed to be nonprofit Blue Cross) had that I vowed never to take their insurance again. Just those two items will cost the insurance companies BIG money. They may have to go into another line of work while they still have money to invest. HA!
The alternative was a public option or national health care putting them out of business for good.
Re: Romneycare/Obamacare
Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:18 pm
by Elmo
Yes, part of the Rethug reaction is knee jerk opposition to anything proposed by the other party.
But the other factor is that the Republican Party (in fact both parties) have moved dramatically to the right in just the past few years.
So while Romney could propose this in MA a few years ago, no Republican governor would do so today, even in a relatively liberal New England or West Coast state. He/she would be crucified by the rabid right-wing of the party.
Why has U.S. politics shifted so dramatically to the right in the past 2-3 decades? I have plenty of ideas about that, but it should probably be a topic for another thread.