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in other news... Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:19 pm
by lemur
I'm assuming this is of interest to those who served and to those who did not serve but don't like being taken for a ride by fakes. The Stolen Valor Act was found to be an unconstitutional infringement on free speech. Here's an analysis:

http://www.scotusblog.com/2012/06/court ... v-edwards/
Justice Kennedy announced a plurality opinion – joined by the Chief Justice, Justice Ginsburg, and Justice Sotomayor – and concluding that the Stolen Valor Act infringes on protected speech. The plurality reasoned that, with only narrow exceptions, content-based restrictions on speech face strict scrutiny, and are therefore almost always unconstitutional. False statements of fact do not fall within one of these exceptions, and so the Stolen Valor Act can survive strict scrutiny only if it is narrowly tailored to a compelling government interest. The Court concluded that the Stolen Valor Act is unconstitutional because the Government had not shown that the statute is necessary to protect the integrity of the system of military honors – the interest the Government had identified in support of the Act.

Justice Breyer, joined by Justice Kagan, concurred separately, concluding that the Stolen Valor Act, as drafted, violates intermediate scrutiny. These Justices argued that intermediate scrutiny is the appropriate standard because the Government should have some ability to regulate false statements of fact. However, because the statute, as drafted, applies even in family, social, or other private contexts where lies will often cause little harm; it includes few other limits on its scope, and it creates too significant a burden on protected speech. The concurring Justices believe that the Government could achieve its goals in a less burdensome way, and so they too held the Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional. This opinion leaves open the possibility that Congress will re-write the law more narrowly. Three Justices, led by Justice Alito, dissented.
Basically, the government cannot make saying false statement a criminal act only because the statement is false. Note that this decision does not protect people from fraud based on false statements regarding military service. Fraud is still fraud. Nor does it prevent (as pointed out in the excerpt) the government from tailoring their law more narrowly.

Re: in other news... Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:22 pm
by ErikO
And yet it's still liabelous to call a bad doctor a quack. Somehow this seems to fit.

Re: in other news... Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:35 pm
by lemur
ErikO wrote:And yet it's still liabelous to call a bad doctor a quack. Somehow this seems to fit.
Libel cases are extremely difficult to win. For one thing, truth is an absolute defense. (A true statement cannot be libelous.) If the statement is hyperbole, satire, or mere opinion, the case also fails.

Also, as I recall, in a libel case harm must be demonstrated except for some statements which are considered to be defamatory per se. Calling someone a quack does not fall under this exception so assuming the statement is false and that it is not hyperbole or mere opinion, then harm would have to be demonstrated.

That's exactly why the Stolen Valor Act fails: it criminalizes speech even in the absence of substantial harm. Simple emotional response to the lie (being pissed or offended) does not count. As I said earlier, this decision does NOT make it okay to engage in fraud (to take an example of harm which is substantial) on the basis of lies regarding service.

Re: in other news... Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:45 pm
by inmediasres
I'm sure I'll hear about this at the range next week.

Re: in other news... Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:52 pm
by GuitarsandGuns
Being exposed as a fake is usually enough. Public scorn works. Or it used to.
Criminalizing fakeness shouldn't be.
With this exception. If the fake gets money from their lie, like speaking at schools,
then they are getting their money through lying. And that is selling something that is fake.
Like saying "This car has an engine" when it doesn't

OK, I live in a fairy land. Business makes money by lying all the time. Marketing exists for this.

Re: in other news... Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:37 pm
by CrazyWolf
I'm fine with this. Fraudulent posing is still illegal. Posing without committing fraud is just, well, very very sad, and should open the poser to public mockery and scorn. Having a law against that seems unnecessary.

Re: in other news... Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:29 pm
by ErikO
CrazyWolf wrote:I'm fine with this. Fraudulent posing is still illegal. Posing without committing fraud is just, well, very very sad, and should open the poser to public mockery and scorn. Having a law against that seems unnecessary.
Yep. Who needs a law when tar and feathers are still relatively affordable. Self-policing communities work well. The SEALs have a database of fakers. Exposure as a lair and a cheat makes the speeking engagement money dry up pretty fast.

Re: in other news... Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:48 pm
by hagagaga
It may be unconstitutional, but that doesn't make the violators any less despicable.

Re: in other news... Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:51 pm
by ErikO
hagagaga wrote:It may be unconstitutional, but that doesn't make the violators any less despicable.
+1000

Re: in other news... Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:02 pm
by Vodkin
ErikO wrote:
CrazyWolf wrote:I'm fine with this. Fraudulent posing is still illegal. Posing without committing fraud is just, well, very very sad, and should open the poser to public mockery and scorn. Having a law against that seems unnecessary.
Yep. Who needs a law when tar and feathers are still relatively affordable. Self-policing communities work well. The SEALs have a database of fakers. Exposure as a lair and a cheat makes the speeking engagement money dry up pretty fast.
yup,public embarresment is a far better tool than the law,our courts don't need the extra load of this bullshit anyhow :thumbup:

Re: in other news... Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:28 pm
by Elmo
The strangest thing about this ruling is Rush Limbaugh's reaction to it:

http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201206280010

"I Don't Know If They Legalized Pedophilia Or Not!"

Whaaa ?????

Re: in other news... Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:01 am
by eelj
larrymod wrote:The strangest thing about this ruling is Rush Limbaugh's reaction to it:

http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201206280010

"I Don't Know If They Legalized Pedophilia Or Not!"

Whaaa ?????
I agree with one of the comments on that link, he was just hoping they did so he didn't have to travel off shore to get laid anymore.

Re: in other news... Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:08 am
by goosekiller
If lying about a service record is legal, it should also be legal for anyone who has actually served with bravery and honor to kick said liar's ass.

There are many things that have run amock in this society because the threat of a good old-fashined ass whoopin' has been withdrawn from the equation. Now all of you non-violent types can chastise me with your bullshit.

Re: in other news... Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:15 am
by ErikO
goosekiller wrote:If lying about a service record is legal, it should also be legal for anyone who has actually served with bravery and honor to kick said liar's ass.

There are many things that have run amock in this society because the threat of a good old-fashined ass whoopin' has been withdrawn from the equation. Now all of you non-violent types can chastise me with your bullshit.
I'd rather get an ass kicking than get tarred and feathered. :pirate:

Re: in other news... Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:20 am
by SwampGrouch
ErikO wrote: I'd rather get an ass kicking than get tarred and feathered. :pirate:
If my understanding of history is correct, it was customary for the former or threat there-of to precede the latter.