The Liberal Gun Club Forum

I guess sometimes regressives can be steered into the right direction:


http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/sto ... 53391932/1

No training required to carry guns into public? Lets be honest here people, guns require a great deal of responsibility and if it's just you in your own home, that's one thing but bringing things into public should come with some form of acknowledgment that you know how to be responsible. I mean we don't let people drive on the road without a permit right?

I lived in AK when the law went into effect there. The news crews started interviewing people and of course the gun control crowd was mighty displeased. So were the gang bangers who were interviewed. They always had weapons never needing a permit for their activities and relished the fact that very few others carried weapons. The news folks also interviewed some hard asses at the Anchorage jail and they hated the new law. It introduced a level of danger to their activities that elevated their stress levels. Over all, the change in the law was very effective.

That said, I rarely carried a concealed weapon. The only time that I carried was when I knew that I was going to travel in a dangerous environment. Even then I did not like it. I prefer to peacefully coexist with my fellow human beings. Mostly I carried openly and that was when I was fishing, hiking, camping,etc. Big bears being the reason.

gendoikari87 wrote:No training required to carry guns into public? Lets be honest here people, guns require a great deal of responsibility and if it's just you in your own home, that's one thing but bringing things into public should come with some form of acknowledgment that you know how to be responsible. I mean we don't let people drive on the road without a permit right?

well, in reality the driver's permit is part of the mechanism where one obtains the training necessary to drive without supervision....but I get your point.

The fact is very few jurisdictions require any kind of "training" to carry a concealed handgun; a class maybe and sometimes proof of proficiency. In Oregon a certified instructor signing off is all that is required...in my case the instructor insisted that we be able to hit what we aimed at, but not all do that. Mostly one pays the fees , is background checked and fingerprinted and away they go.

So how about requiring "training" simply to acquire a handgun, whether one carries it or not?

Had an experience at a range on Monday. A kid, 20 or so, seated at the bench was adjusting his rest with an AR secured in his left hand. The muzzle started drifting off to the left, angled to about 45 degrees off the sight line. I shouted over to him and asked if he had a round chambered in that thing and he was quite embarrassed, apologized, cleared it and set the rifle down. The point being that close supervision while one is learning anything is an asset...

With driving a learning period is required, not so with guns; perhaps that ought to change.

So how about requiring "training" simply to acquire a handgun, whether one carries it or not?

honestly if you can get the gun banners to STFU, I would much like to model our firearms laws and regulations like the auto industry, both are dangerous if misused, so I don't see why we shouldn't treat them the same. the only difference is that no one's trying to ban cars. And that is why gun control advocates are their own worst enemy.

As long as the "low-standards" gun owner and the NRA have a say, having safe gun ownership is nothing but a dream. The powers that be will allow any wahoo to walk around armed and clueless. It is a constitutional right, and it is stupid.

Responsible carry should involve training. I don't care what you think, if you don't expect a gun owner to be trained and qualified, your attitude is putting me in danger.

This is something that I agree with 100%:
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The next step in personal defense is to carry lifesaving equipment with you all the time, not just at home or in the car. All that is required to get a CHL is to pass the state-mandated course. The standards for the state course define the absolute minimum competency required to carry in public without being a danger to others. Just taking the CHL class and shooting your gun once every 5 years because the state requires it simply isn't enough to give you good odds of survival.

To pass the CHL shooting test you get to start with the gun in both hands, stand still, out in the open, and shoot a big, easy target straight ahead of you within generous time limits, on a well lit shooting range. You'll be poised and ready to shoot, waiting for the 'go" signal.

In a real situation it's likely that your gun will be concealed in a holster or purse, you'll be moving, you may only have one hand available (the other may be busy opening a door, carrying a bag or fending off an attacker), you'll have to move and shoot around other people and real-world obstacles (cars, desks, etc.), you may face multiple attackers anywhere in the 360 degrees around you, and you'll be trying to defend yourself and make shoot/no-shoot decisions in the dark, as fast as you can, while your life is in immediate danger.

The courses we offer past the CHL level prepare you for those realistic situations through live fire drills, integration of gun and unarmed skills, and Airsoft-based "force on force" scenario based training. The "Advanced Training" courses in this sequence should be considered essential for anyone serious about surviving a criminal attack.

Here is a realistic training curriculum. At least 1-9 should be required for a CHL.

1) Basic Pistol 1 -Learn the basics, try many different handguns, learn how to select an appropriate handgun
2) Purchase your own handgun
3) Practice with it on your own
4) Basic Pistol 2 - Review the fundamentals, get additional coaching and shoot drills "on the clock" similar to those in the Texas CHL shooting test
5) More practice on your own
6) Concealed Handgun License - learn Texas gun laws and get a carry permit so you can carry in public
7) Take a basic first aid course, a CPR course, and make sure you have first aid supplies in your car.
8) Defensive Pistol Skills or Advanced Training 1 - Learn the essentials of defensive handgunning.
9) Practice realistic drills (not just "target shooting") with your handgun at least 3-4 times a year, preferably every month
10) Any or all of these courses
Defensive Pistol Skills 2 - Learn to shoot from cover and improve the skills you learned in DPS 1
Advanced Training 1A - low light handgun shooting skills, because most defensive encounters happen in low light
Defensive Pistol Skills 3 - more practice in Defensive Pistol skills
11) Advanced Training 2 - experience "force on force" scenarios for home defense
12) Personal Tactics Skills - learn how to read pre-fight cues, learn basic plans for common situations
13) Make sure that others you trust and care about know what to do and what you will do in a confrontation at home or in public
14) Take a multi day unarmed combatives course such as InSights Unarmed Self Defense I or take martial arts classes that include sparring other students, such as those offered by Tactical Arts in Austin
15) Advanced Training 3, Advanced Training 4, Advanced Training 6 and guest instructor classes
16) Advanced Training 5, Advanced Training 7 and 5A - advanced "force on force" training

From KR Training - http://www.krtraining.com/whatclass.html

You do not need a learner's permit to get your driver's license, you just need to demonstrate that you know how to handle your automobile in order to get a license.

Freedom of rapid movement is not ensured by the Constitution. I do agree that legal gun owners should be interested enough in the safe operation of their firearm to get proper training in it's care and use. There are already legal and civil repercussions to improper firearm use. I do not see the issue. Laws do not prevent bad things from happening through any mechanism other than giving thoughtful people a negative consequence to consider before taking their actions or pinishing the ones who fail. It's against the law in Missouri to be in a car without wearing a seatbelt but there still are ejection-based fatalities due to lack of compliance with the law.

Morality and common sense can not be legislated. Death is the one thing that we can all count on due to our communal lack of physical immortality.

Awake wrote:As long as the "low-standards" gun owner and the NRA have a say, having safe gun ownership is nothing but a dream. The powers that be will allow any wahoo to walk around armed and clueless. It is a constitutional right, and it is stupid.

Any other Constitutionally enshrined right we should have training for before we exercise it? English test for freedom of speech? Critical thinking training before you can exercise your freedom of religion?

ErikO wrote:You do not need a learner's permit to get your driver's license, you just need to demonstrate that you know how to handle your automobile in order to get a license.

It varies by state. In MD if you've held a full permit in another state, you can get a full permit here. I don't think there's even a need for a demonstration. If you've never held a full permit, then you've got to get the learner's permit and the provisional permit first, no allowance for demonstrating proficiency and skipping ahead.

KVoimakas wrote: Any other Constitutionally enshrined right we should have training for before we exercise it? English test for freedom of speech? Critical thinking training before you can exercise your freedom of religion?

Why yes now that you mention it! Spelling and Grammar, Critical Thinking...these are good ideas. I can't begin to tell you how irritating it is to have to decipher creative spelling and sentences that have no end....six thousand word paragraphs...

I am certain that these things cause uncounted aneurysms and coronaries...

To steal from the forward of Jon Stewart's book: America (The Book): A Citizen's Guide to Democracy Inaction

You moderns have a tendency to worship at the alter of the Fathers. "The First Amendment is sacrosanct!" "We will die to protect the Second Amendment!" So dramatic. Do you know why we called them amendments? Because they amend! They fix mistakes or correct omissions and they themselves can be changed. If we meant for the Constitution to be written in stone we would have written it in stone. Most things were written in stone back then, you know. I'm not trying to be difficult but it's quite bothersome when you blame your own inflexibility and extremism on us. Thomas Jeffersonnot really

I am convinced that our unwillingness to be out in front of the issue will relegate us to a state of ineffectiveness.

What is the thought from Richard Feldman's Ricochet...something about a willingness to lose a tree to save the orchard or something...?

I am not convinced that the sheer number of Second Amendment advocates is sufficient to quell the momentum of a unified antigun movement should it ever effectively organize. Inflexibility on our part, I believe, will do more to harm us than help us.

ErikO wrote:You do not need a learner's permit to get your driver's license, you just need to demonstrate that you know how to handle your automobile in order to get a license.

Oregon requires a minimum number of hours behind the wheel before the practical test can be administered.

KVoimakas wrote:

Awake wrote:As long as the "low-standards" gun owner and the NRA have a say, having safe gun ownership is nothing but a dream. The powers that be will allow any wahoo to walk around armed and clueless. It is a constitutional right, and it is stupid.

Any other Constitutionally enshrined right we should have training for before we exercise it? English test for freedom of speech? Critical thinking training before you can exercise your freedom of religion?

I know you're being sarcastic but you might be onto something there.

I have always understood as well as enjoyed my rights as guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. I only understand these rights because I am educated. I am not bestowed these rights because I am educated.

gendoikari87 wrote:

KVoimakas wrote:

Awake wrote:As long as the "low-standards" gun owner and the NRA have a say, having safe gun ownership is nothing but a dream. The powers that be will allow any wahoo to walk around armed and clueless. It is a constitutional right, and it is stupid.

Any other Constitutionally enshrined right we should have training for before we exercise it? English test for freedom of speech? Critical thinking training before you can exercise your freedom of religion?

I know you're being sarcastic but you might be onto something there.

Word.

I've received training as a youth so I could purchase a deer hunting license prior to my 18th birthday, so did my son. The NRA safe hunter course is required by the state of Mn. My training in shooting mostly came from my father, if I where to apply for a carry permit in my state I would want training in the laws and the psychology of carrying in public, I don't need any training in how too shoot, or how to carry safely, my father and my own experience have taught me that. Unfortunately times have changed and society is different than what it was when I was growing up, It curls the few hairs that I have left on my head thinking of people getting their first experience with firearms and shooting during the concealed carry class with a snub nosed revolver or a 9mm auto. Since average and below average people like me enjoy the same rights as brilliant people its incumbent that all the brilliant people need to go out of their way to educate the rest of us properly.