The Liberal Gun Club Forum

the debate is over, 5.7mm commercial ammo wont penetrate body armor.

I shot the ballistic panel from an interceptor otv shoulder protector with a 40 grain v max round out of a five seven pistol. It penetrated 10 layers and got embedded in the 11th.

to put that in perspective my pmr 30 .22 magnum shooting 30 grain v max rounds penetrated 6, 11, then 14 layers of the same type of ballistic pannel.

my tokarev averaged around 20 layers

and a mil surp 9mm penetrated 1-2 layers of the same material.

in other words the fastest load of .22 magnum has a little more than half the probability of penetrating modern body armor than the slowest load of the five seven.

in a past the 22 mag vmax penetrated 16 layers of Kevlar from early 90's manufactured ballistic panels.

I recorded a video but its not impressive.

well duh, the only reason the "military" version did was because there was ONE loading that was a steel penetrator and everyone and their mother got all up in arms over it being on every street corner when A) it wasn't legal to civilians, and B) very few people have Five-seveN's

Also, Ah, the good ol Tokarev. Now there's a penetrator.

5.7 is all about that tumbling. That is what sounds interesting.

inmediasres wrote:5.7 is all about that tumbling. That is what sounds interesting.

which it excells at



conversely here's the armor piercing version

I see this stuff getting labeled inhumane and banned just like hollow points.

However, Josh and Josh will still advocate for banning it by saying that it'll pierce body armor. Honesty isn't a strong point in the citizens' disarmament lobby.

Best reason to not shoot COM. I put a shoot-n-see so the upper left and upper right portions touch the silhuette's shoulders to get me used to shooting at the Golden Triangle area. Even in winter that part of the body tends to be the most vulnerable.

Back in the good ol USMC I remember when our MSGT put a Kevlar flak jacket over a five gallon plastic mud bucket filled full of water. He then shot the thing with a single round of 7.62x39 out of an AK47 at 200 yards. The water spout was impressive. He turned to us and said, "remember that". I have never forgotten.

inmediasres wrote:I see this stuff getting labeled inhumane and banned just like hollow points.

HP aren't banned in Texas. I've always got them loaded in my Ruger .45

No. Hollow points aren't banned for civilian or law enforcement use. However, they are considered inhumane and were banned through the Geneva Convention. As a result of this, military forces are only allowed to use FMJ.

Because of that, I don't know what kind of argument will be made over the tumbling effect of the 5.7 round. I know it was being developed by FN for use by NATO to replace the 9mm and 5.56 by unifying their pistol and rifle ammunition, but it was ultimately placed on hold. I know law enforcement, secret service, and some foreign law enforcement use the P90, but I don't know that any military forces will adopt it anytime soon.

inmediasres wrote:No. Hollow points aren't banned for civilian or law enforcement use. However, they are considered inhumane and were banned through the Geneva Convention. As a result of this, military forces are only allowed to use FMJ.

Because of that, I don't know what kind of argument will be made over the tumbling effect of the 5.7 round. I know it was being developed by FN for use by NATO to replace the 9mm and 5.56 by unifying their pistol and rifle ammunition, but it was ultimately placed on hold. I know law enforcement, secret service, and some foreign law enforcement use the P90, but I don't know that any military forces will adopt it anytime soon.

If you start banning cartridges based on tumbling, i'm afraid to tell you the worst offender is the 5.56NATO. still I'd love to see THV's make it to the scene. Love that little bit of super simple technology.

inmediasres wrote:No. Hollow points aren't banned for civilian or law enforcement use. However, they are considered inhumane and were banned through the Geneva Convention. As a result of this, military forces are only allowed to use FMJ.

Because of that, I don't know what kind of argument will be made over the tumbling effect of the 5.7 round. I know it was being developed by FN for use by NATO to replace the 9mm and 5.56 by unifying their pistol and rifle ammunition, but it was ultimately placed on hold. I know law enforcement, secret service, and some foreign law enforcement use the P90, but I don't know that any military forces will adopt it anytime soon.

The P90's great, but I know (at least for a time) that 5.7mm ammo was scarce, it's actually one of the reasons why the TV show Stargate started using the G36 as the show's mainstay weapon instead of the P90. Isn't that ammo insanely expensive? Last time I saw some, it was $40 for a box of 20.

atxgunguy wrote:

inmediasres wrote:No. Hollow points aren't banned for civilian or law enforcement use. However, they are considered inhumane and were banned through the Geneva Convention. As a result of this, military forces are only allowed to use FMJ.

Because of that, I don't know what kind of argument will be made over the tumbling effect of the 5.7 round. I know it was being developed by FN for use by NATO to replace the 9mm and 5.56 by unifying their pistol and rifle ammunition, but it was ultimately placed on hold. I know law enforcement, secret service, and some foreign law enforcement use the P90, but I don't know that any military forces will adopt it anytime soon.

The P90's great, but I know (at least for a time) that 5.7mm ammo was scarce, it's actually one of the reasons why the TV show Stargate started using the G36 as the show's mainstay weapon instead of the P90. Isn't that ammo insanely expensive? Last time I saw some, it was $40 for a box of 20.

yeah, it's the ONLY reason i decided to go fs2000 instead of P-90, only got a few hundred saved up though, who knows maybe by the time i can afford a fs2000 the price will come down.

Why no one has made a 7.62 Tokarev carbine is beyond me. Hell I tempted to get one of the semi-auto PPS 43 pistols and SBR it.

Zapp Brannigan wrote:Why no one has made a 7.62 Tokarev carbine is beyond me. Hell I tempted to get one of the semi-auto PPS 43 pistols and SBR it.

They make an AR15 upper chambered in that.

I was on a team that got to test the p90 in the middle 90s it was mighty impressive using the armor piercing rounds. A Vietnam era flak jacket was never meant to stop a round only shrapnel.

I have my AR chambered for5.7x28 I like it out to 100 yards it is flat and extremely easy to manage. Almost no recoil I believe it uses a 12 oz buffer instead of the standard one. It goes about 50 cents a round. You can get a box of 50 for about 23 bucks on average. I got it because I can shoot it indoors at my range.

atxgunguy wrote: The P90's great, but I know (at least for a time) that 5.7mm ammo was scarce, it's actually one of the reasons why the TV show Stargate started using the G36 as the show's mainstay weapon instead of the P90. Isn't that ammo insanely expensive? Last time I saw some, it was $40 for a box of 20.

Actually, the Iraq war just made them give Carter a short-barreled M4 and they went back to using the MP5 a few times. They also use M16's, shotguns (specifically the Daewoo USAS-12), and Goa'uld weapons more in later seasons.

I guess the SOCOM guys have P-90's and that's why the military was buying all the 5.7mm blanks and ammo.

inmediasres wrote:No. Hollow points aren't banned for civilian or law enforcement use. However, they are considered inhumane and were banned through the Geneva Convention. As a result of this, military forces are only allowed to use FMJ.

New Jersey has a ban on hollowpoints. So in New Jersey a 22 LR hollow point is inhumane but a 454 Casul is humane.
I wonder if Captain Kirk's Phaser had a humane setting?

WillCarry wrote:

inmediasres wrote:No. Hollow points aren't banned for civilian or law enforcement use. However, they are considered inhumane and were banned through the Geneva Convention. As a result of this, military forces are only allowed to use FMJ.

New Jersey has a ban on hollowpoints. So in New Jersey a 22 LR hollow point is inhumane but a 454 Casul is humane.
I wonder if Captain Kirk's Phaser had a humane setting?

Stun.

inmediasres wrote:No. Hollow points aren't banned for civilian or law enforcement use. However, they are considered inhumane and were banned through the Geneva Convention. As a result of this, military forces are only allowed to use FMJ.

Wrong.

Hollowpoints are against the rules of warfare due to the HAGUE convention of 1899 in a clause which prohibits the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp

Because of that, I don't know what kind of argument will be made over the tumbling effect of the 5.7 round. I know it was being developed by FN for use by NATO to replace the 9mm and 5.56 by unifying their pistol and rifle ammunition, but it was ultimately placed on hold. I know law enforcement, secret service, and some foreign law enforcement use the P90, but I don't know that any military forces will adopt it anytime soon.[/quote]

Rather than unifying rifle and pistol ammo, they should unify rifle ammo with rifle ammo.

Currently, there is 5.56 NATO and 7.62 NATO. They could eliminate both and replace them with 6.5 Grendel. 6.5 Grendel would have only slightly reduced ammo capacity and recoil over 5.56 but it has way more power and a flatter trajectory than both 5.56 and 7.62 NATO. Yes more power than 7.62 NATO at the ranges for which 7.62 NATO is used. Past a couple hundred meters, 6.5 Grendel surpasses 7.62 NATO in retained energy because the bullet shape has a vastly superior ballistic coefficient. It's a truly brilliant round.

Wurble wrote:

inmediasres wrote:No. Hollow points aren't banned for civilian or law enforcement use. However, they are considered inhumane and were banned through the Geneva Convention. As a result of this, military forces are only allowed to use FMJ.

Wrong.

Hollowpoints are against the rules of warfare due to the HAGUE convention of 1899 in a clause which prohibits the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp

Because of that, I don't know what kind of argument will be made over the tumbling effect of the 5.7 round. I know it was being developed by FN for use by NATO to replace the 9mm and 5.56 by unifying their pistol and rifle ammunition, but it was ultimately placed on hold. I know law enforcement, secret service, and some foreign law enforcement use the P90, but I don't know that any military forces will adopt it anytime soon.

Rather than unifying rifle and pistol ammo, they should unify rifle ammo with rifle ammo.

Currently, there is 5.56 NATO and 7.62 NATO. They could eliminate both and replace them with 6.5 Grendel. 6.5 Grendel would have only slightly reduced ammo capacity and recoil over 5.56 but it has way more power and a flatter trajectory than both 5.56 and 7.62 NATO. Yes more power than 7.62 NATO at the ranges for which 7.62 NATO is used. Past a couple hundred meters, 6.5 Grendel surpasses 7.62 NATO in retained energy because the bullet shape has a vastly superior ballistic coefficient. It's a truly brilliant round.[/quote]
Whoa, seriously, well shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Wurble wrote: Currently, there is 5.56 NATO and 7.62 NATO. They could eliminate both and replace them with 6.5 Grendel. 6.5 Grendel would have only slightly reduced ammo capacity and recoil over 5.56 but it has way more power and a flatter trajectory than both 5.56 and 7.62 NATO. Yes more power than 7.62 NATO at the ranges for which 7.62 NATO is used. Past a couple hundred meters, 6.5 Grendel surpasses 7.62 NATO in retained energy because the bullet shape has a vastly superior ballistic coefficient. It's a truly brilliant round.

Whoa, seriously, well shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.

Another awesome thing about 6.5 Grendel: it has almost the same length as 5.56. For this reason, you can use a standard AR-15 lower receiver. In fact, you can even use standard AR-15 5.5.6 magazines, though without modification to the magazine, there will be feed issues. Older magazines could actually be retrofitted to use it. Existing AR-15s could be converted with a new upper.

7.62 NATO cannot be used in an AR-15. You can use an AR-10, but not an AR-15.

The best part of switching to 6.5 Grendel, IMO would of course be that it would result in decreased cost of 6.5 Grendel rounds

it looks like it has a very sharp neck to, so will be marginally more accurate.

I loaned my FiveseveN to a family member and have not received it back in almost two years. I do not miss it at all. After the initial novelty wore off it was just like shooting a very expensive .22mag pistol.

TheYankeeMarshal wrote:I loaned my FiveseveN to a family member and have not received it back in almost two years. I do not miss it at all. After the initial novelty wore off it was just like shooting a very expensive .22mag pistol.

I have a pmr 30, with 30 grain v max rounds it can penetrate 16 layers of kevlar from an early 90's ballistic vest.