The Liberal Gun Club Forum

Here is a question for folks.

Let me first preface it before I ask the question.

I grew up a small child in the sixties and came of age in the seventies. I did so in the South which still suffered from many forms of repression. I grew up a Catholic which by it's very nature is a repressed thing. I was taught and raised by many ideas that were/are repressive to many people. Needless to say, I was a good southerner and a good Catholic. We were not open to equal rights as a reality. We believed in the Constitution, but only for the whiter Americans. We didn't actually mean it to be that way. It just was the way it was. We inherited it.

As I grew up and experienced life and the world, I realized how small and minuscule the vision of my world was. College and the USMC taught me about how race issues were nonexistent since all people of all races are the same. Our cares, concerns, and hopes are the same. It is all about family, love, hope, and desire for a better future. I learned that regardless of race, we were the same. The Marines taught me to look at fellow humans and say, "Semper Fi".

After the Marines, I was introduced to DADT. I was very upset with folks who I felt were trying to force me into a fighting hole/relationship with a homosexual. I was on the defensive and was very "anti" when it came to gay. It never occurred to me that perhaps these folks just wanted the same right to stand and be counted as I declared for myself. It took me a long time and a friendship with a gay man to discover how oppressive I have been with my neighbor. It was a man that I would never have known to be gay by looking at him or his life style. He is just a genuine human being that I felt shame for my preconceived notions. I am proud to call him my friend even though I have never told him. It would shame me to ever prejudge some one for their sexual preference ever again. Even though I do not understand being gay, I do understand that the heart wants what the heart wants.

The question is this. How does one say I am sorry? I understand now how terrible it is to deny our brotherhood. I understand how terrible it is to ostracize our fellow children under God regardless of whether we believe or not. I read in other posts about the difference between liberals and conservatives. These are non-issues for those who are learning to care. The issues it seems to me are how we can learn to live in brotherhood and sisterhood regardless of our natures. I honestly want to learn to love and care for all people regardless of all the stupid labels and restrictions we place upon ourselves. Zenmason gives a hint in one of his posts. I want everyone to hear. I am so very sorry. I am sorry.

You just did. And you keep doing it. We all do.

I'm grateful that you were able to see things in a new way. Not grateful to you, but for the fact of your change of understanding.

We live in the best way we know how and we keep looking for the things we are doing wrong; the things we take for granted that are maintaining a world that treats some better than others for arbitrary reasons.

We move from "I see everyone the same" to "I will not stand by while others are treated as lesser" to "I will stop doing the things I do out of habit and comfort that is contrary to what I believe" . I don't mean this as a progression, that one of these things is more "advanced" than another. I mean that we start with one of these things and then add the others and we do all of them. We do them over and over.

That's how I try to do it.

I find that offering an invitation to a BBQ and a beer are a good start. Sometimes, one of the best ways to move past your old notions is just to appreciate people for who they are, and invite them to take a part, however casual, in your life. For me, choosing anyone to share my free time with is a kind of big deal, because I'm fairly private and don't have a lot of time to kill.

I was raised by rednecks and didn't really understand what a jackass I had been until I lived in the Big World for a time. I can't undo anything I did or said but I try to be a better person now and encourage others to to the same.

I turned out to be exactly the sort of person I was warned about.

We're all products of the environments we grew up in. At some point we cling to the values we were raised with, or eschew them and move on. I don't feel guilty for having been raised with bigoted attitudes, and as a result don't feel a need to apologize. My actions going forward show that I've gotten past those old beliefs.

Apology is well and good. It is admirable when people can see how their actions, whether they were the "norm" or not, have affected people. I would not dwell so much on apology however. What is more important is realizing that there still exists and entire system that is dedicated to promoting and perpetuating the advantages that those attitudes and behaviors have provided and the obstacles they have created for the out groups; and choosing not to participate in that system and informing others about it, like Fukshot said.

Cabrito wrote:We're all products of the environments we grew up in. At some point we cling to the values we were raised with, or eschew them and move on. I don't feel guilty for having been raised with bigoted attitudes, and as a result don't feel a need to apologize. My actions going forward show that I've gotten past those old beliefs.

^^^ This sounds pretty good to me as far as the apology part...

Now as far as the whole gay issue in general, IMO one of the biggest problems that I find with people who are anti-gay, is the freaking stereotypes (which I'm guilty off too, just not on this issue) You have to keep in mind that there is a difference between "Gender" and "Sexual orientation". Just because your neighbor is a big fat construction worker (man) doesn't mean that he doesn't like big black cocks in his ass. IMO if the whole fucking world could get thru their thick head, we would not be having any of these gay marriage shit,, or any other gay issues. Again, IMO, if a person cannot get past this, whether cause of your family indoctrination, religious indoctrination, or wahteverthefuck, then your are NEVER gonna be cool with the whole gay issue. And the same principle can be applied to a lot of other issues.

Thats one of the reasons I am a leftist. To me if a man from Nigeria has a boyfriend from Japan, it makes no fucking difference to me whatsoever, so why the fuck would I be against gay marriage, ( if you can keep in mind the principle ). I do judge people, I think everyone does, but I judge people on stuff like if you are stingy,(cant stand people like this), religious zealots (especially the ones who say "praise jesus" every two fucking seconds), if you are unwilling to help your neighbor unless it pays cash money, if you steal from me,,.... and stuff like that.. but I could give a fuck who you live with, or who you fuck.

P.S. at some point I will discuss the whole gay issue on a separate thread just cause I'm tired of what should be a non-issue, I'll explain it in simple terms once and for all.

I agree with you Dennis,of course I think we are of a younger generation where homosexuality is more accepted by us.
I also think that people of my fathers generation (he is in his late 60's) are less then accepting of it than we are,I also could give a crap less about who's huumping who and what gender they are but alot people seem to worry about it needlessly,it reminds me of a cartoon I saw in a playboy or penthouse years ago,A husband and wife where looking at their drawer where a bunch of little pilgrims were rifling their drawers and throwing out dildos,porno,whips and chainsand stuff of that sort,the wife looks at the husband and says"honey,you better call the exterminater,we've got puritans",kinda how I look at it I guess

When I was in high school an interracial couple walking down the street holding hands would cause cars to drive off in a ditch.

Simmer down wrote:When I was in high school an interracial couple walking down the street holding hands would cause cars to drive off in a ditch.

thats no shit either,when I was in high school (late 80's)I had a Korean girlfriend and my aunt about flipped her lid,calling her a few nasty names I don't care to repeat,she didn't know what to say when I told her to either accept or prepare not to see me again

I'm no redneck, tho I have enjoyed redneck sorts of recreation hunting, fishing, pickup trucks, shooting etc. I'm not gay either. I always was a bit uncomfortable with jokes that were demeaning--tho often not brave enough to speak up.

I guess what I learned when I was a little kid on my mama's knee was that we're all pretty much the same inside--unless someone gives you a vibe that you shouldn't trust them, treating everyone with dignity and respect goes a long way for atoning for past sins of stupidity and ignorance.

Or you can start a Karma list and spend the rest of your life making up with folks you've treated badly.

myfiero wrote:Or you can start a Karma list and spend the rest of your life making up with folks you've treated badly.

Yeeesh! I'm going with the plan to make it up by ongoing good acts. Probably a copout, but damn I'll be the first to say that there's some shit I've done I ain't strong enough to revisit.

Fukshot wrote:

myfiero wrote:Or you can start a Karma list and spend the rest of your life making up with folks you've treated badly.

Yeeesh! I'm going with the plan to make it up by ongoing good acts. Probably a copout, but damn I'll be the first to say that there's some shit I've done I ain't strong enough to revisit.

Glad I am not alone there.

Thanks for the replies. I wrote this thread because I saw something on TV that reminded me of something foolish and cruel that I had done in my younger years. The ones I should say I am sorry to are gone and far away and I know I will never see them again. I'd tell them I was sorry if they were here but they are not so I said it to the night sky and the world in general. You all were in the impact area so you heard it too. I guess pain makes one wise which is why the older one gets the better decisions one makes.

As for the necessity of saying "Sorry", I believe in it. Even if one only speaks it to the night sky or a lazy creek, the speaker hears it and so does the universe. I know when others have hurt me, hearing them say, I'm Sorry" has healed much of those hurts. It means something. Anyway, Thanks for listening.

One thing that I should say is that I never learned the things that I have to apologize for from my parents. I learned them from the rest of my society. My folks never had a racist or prejudiced bone in their bodies. They opened our home to everyone and made them feel welcome. No one was ever rejected or ostracized for who they were. I think back and consider the day and the time and I am amazed. I just have to shake my head. My parents were much better people than I am.

It is very flattering that you liken us to the night sky and to a lazy creek in this context. Thank you.

punkinlobber wrote:Thanks for the replies. I wrote this thread because I saw something on TV that reminded me of something foolish and cruel that I had done in my younger years. The ones I should say I am sorry to are gone and far away and I know I will never see them again. I'd tell them I was sorry if they were here but they are not so I said it to the night sky and the world in general. You all were in the impact area so you heard it too. I guess pain makes one wise which is why the older one gets the better decisions one makes.

As for the necessity of saying "Sorry", I believe in it. Even if one only speaks it to the night sky or a lazy creek, the speaker hears it and so does the universe. I know when others have hurt me, hearing them say, I'm Sorry" has healed much of those hurts. It means something. Anyway, Thanks for listening.

One thing that I should say is that I never learned the things that I have to apologize for from my parents. I learned them from the rest of my society. My folks never had a racist or prejudiced bone in their bodies. They opened our home to everyone and made them feel welcome. No one was ever rejected or ostracized for who they were. I think back and consider the day and the time and I am amazed. I just have to shake my head. My parents were much better people than I am.

In my response, I did not mean to make light of the need or power of apology, so hopefully that is not how it came off. The power of apology comes from the acknowledgement that your actions or inaction caused or facilitated someone's pain. We can't really make up for the pain that we have caused, but we can acknowledge that we did it and that we were wrong. We can make a pledge and the effort to not repeat those hurtful things. We must also forgive ourselves for being weak so that we can grow and move forward.

Funny thing about the word "Apology" it means expressing regret and remorse over an offense, but it also means a defense. I know that the Apology as defense stems from Plato and from Christian writers defending religious positions during the formation of the Church. I have have not understood why the word was used to mean a regret since defense implies a justification. We often see "apology" from people, especially those on the right without any real remorse or acknowledgement of the consequences of their actions. They seem to have internalized the defensive construct of the word.

I digress. punkinlobber, you just have to acknowledge that you aren't always going to be able to choose to do the correct thing but try like the dickens and if you fail, do your best to acknowledge the situation, regret the pain you cause others, ask their forgiveness, and forgive yourself.

Caliman73 wrote: Funny thing about the word "Apology" it means expressing regret and remorse over an offense, but it also means a defense.

Defense was the original meaning. Wikipedia explains it well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apologetics#Etymology

Basically the apologia was the part of a court case where the defendant presents a defense, most often to fully rebut the prosecution's thesis. I'm guessing here but I think among possible defense strategies would be what in modern terms would be called "affirmative defenses" where the defendant admits having done the act but brings forth an excuse: "Yes I did it but I was insane/it was self-defense/etc. So I should be found not guilty." I'm thinking the modern meaning comes from that subset of strategies.

Sometimes apologies, even with the modern meaning, amount to nothing more than a defense, self-protection: "Your whining is annoying me. So here's an apology. Leave me in peace now!" In this case, it is a strategy for maintaining one's own comfort.

Fukshot wrote:It is very flattering that you liken us to the night sky and to a lazy creek in this context. Thank you.

it's very nice,I have always pictured the sky as the earths blanket and water as it's lifeblood,a trickle of water flows to a lazy stream and is then carried to larger creek which is then carried to a river which then spews into a larger river and eventualy ends up as part of the ocean and this is how a single thought can make it's way around the world,at least thats how I feel about it