The Liberal Gun Club Forum

I read Unger back in grad school. Interesting stuff.

"Obama sweetens the pill of disempowerment."

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/06/18/f ... d-in-2012/

Still: “Unless he is defeated, there cannot be a contest for the reorientation of the Democratic Party as the vehicle of a progressive alternative in the country,” Unger concludes.

This. If what you want is marriage equality, the way to get it is not to vote for obama and hope he does something about it, fix the core of the problem, money controlling politics, and then make it happen with your vote. Tired of america killing innocent civilians overseas, don't vote for Obama and pray his monied intrests agree, fix the system and make it happen with your vote. Tired of the elite buying elections and doing as they please, for the LOVE of god don't vote for obama and pray he'll do something about it, that's asking the man to kill his bread and butter.

Point being what we get from the system now will be token gestures to keep us out of the streets, and nothing more. If you want change, real change, ask for it. Don't support the status quo. You can vote for Obama if you want, but don't fool yourself into thinking you're voting for anything more than continued states rights defining marriage equality, continued destruction of the middle class, mass murder by our country, Continued lack of support and outright sabotage of alternative fuels, free run of the nation by the monied elite, the development of a total police state, and the continued decent (albeit maybe 1% slower) into an outright aristocracy of plutocrats.

MLK did not become the democrats creature even after LBJ's commitment to civil rights earlier in the 1960s. That progress did not excuse the montrosities being carried out in Southeast Asia in King's eyes.
This president has done much less on the progressive front and continues to push forward an aerial bombardment campaign that is indiscriminate where it drops the bombs.
The labor unions have been pushed aside, though I'm sure we will get more promises on the Employee Free Choice Act now that Novemeber is coming up.
Not a word of encouragement for the workers arrayed against Scot Walker's plans to disenfranchise public sector unions.
Outright dismissal by his administration of the Occupy Movement.
Bailouts for Wall Street. Foreclosures for the rest of us.
Campaign contributions from Goldman Sachs. Appointment of former Goldman- Sachs CEO to his administration.
Appointment of Ken Salazar to the Department of Energy. An oil tycoon who couldn't give away exemptions for Gulf Of Mexico drilling fast enough in the wake of the BP disaster.
Attempts to broaden state surveillance on private citizens.
And etc.
For the people who believe that the way to move forward toward a progressive future is to work within the Democratic party then what more powerful message would there be than to refuse to automatically validate whatever candidate they choose for us?

Oh and appointing someone from Monsanto to head the FDA. That is absolutely inexcusable. Should have had the man tried for murder, extortion, and corruption.

And the current board of teh Fed Reserve.

Ad nausium.

I'm doing it the right way, I hope. I'm working closely with my local state reps and senator to effect positive change in my local area.

Until corporations are no longer people and SPAC money is unchecked, I don't see anything else to be done. Unless a non-Statist party that has teh same social agenda as I do comes on the scene in a big way, that is.

I've already alerted my locals that if a more socially progressive/fiscally responsable group comes along they're under the bus. So far, my local Dems are at least willing to talk turkey about guns and money.

Good God do you all realize what this would mean?

Absolutely nothin.

I am convinced. I don't like it much but I see the whole of the progressive movement as existing in a state of denial. Ignoring what is right in front of our faces, we cling to the mantra that he is one of us. Reality plays such a limited role when confronted with dogma, with what one wants to believe is true.

It seems, as with the addict, one doesn't seek to change until one has hit the bottom. Perhaps we are ultimately better off by removing the band-aid quickly rather than slowly, finding how bad the bottom really is sooner rather than later...(though I will admit that I thought that such realization had taken place in 2004, and then for real in 2008).

“Unless he is defeated, there cannot be a contest for the reorientation of the Democratic Party as the vehicle of a progressive alternative in the country,” Unger

I am convinced.

It's not just obama, it's both parties. until we get money out of politics we will keep sliding into an autocracy of some kind, more than likely a faux aristocracy. Question is HOW we get that done....

I'm not so much of an optimist to imagine that a loss in 2012 will be the magical event that causes the Democratic party to reconfigure in to something I would like better. Didn't work with 8 years of Bush. Didn't work with 12 years of Reagan and Bush. What on earth makes this guy think it would happen now?

I understand the nearly religious belief on the left in the narrative of sufficient oppression causing a progressive political awakening among the downtrodden, but that's way more romance than truth. It does not allow for the level of cultural balkanization that has happened in US politics. It relies on a fairly simplistic class analysis that does not fit the contemporary environment.

Throwing an election to Romney because you are sure that THAT will be the final straw and suddenly the vast majority of the US electorate will have a progressive epiphany is just as delusional as believing that O is a leftist and has a greater cost.

I wish it were so. I really do, but it just ain't.

Fukshot wrote:I'm not so much of an optimist to imagine that a loss in 2012 will be the magical event that causes the Democratic party to reconfigure in to something I would like better. Didn't work with 8 years of Bush. Didn't work with 12 years of Reagan and Bush. What on earth makes this guy think it would happen now?

I understand the nearly religious belief on the left in the narrative of sufficient oppression causing a progressive political awakening among the downtrodden, but that's way more romance than truth. It does not allow for the level of cultural balkanization that has happened in US politics. It relies on a fairly simplistic class analysis that does not fit the contemporary environment.

Throwing an election to Romney because you are sure that THAT will be the final straw and suddenly the vast majority of the US electorate will have a progressive epiphany is just as delusional as believing that O is a leftist and has a greater cost.

I wish it were so. I really do, but it just ain't.

Bottom line is we have a broken system and we need to fix it. Obama will not fix it, and it's heading for a bad place. The question of how to fix it has been answered a million times, but how we implement that solution is one which we still need to figure out.

So, slow the enemies advance or lose the war and start an insurgency?

That's my choice?

Inquisitor wrote:So, slow the enemies advance or lose the war and start an insurgency?

That's my choice?

It's not even slowing the enemies advance, just keeping them for accelerating.

There are VERY few limited options we have to keep from nose diving into an outright open plutocracy, the best chance lies with a constitutional convention.

Inquisitor wrote:So, slow the enemies advance or lose the war and start an insurgency?

That's my choice?

Oh that's a grim summation, but I'm afraid it is right.

Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
Everybody knows that the war is over
Everybody knows the good guys lost
Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The poor stay poor, the rich get rich
That's how it goes
Everybody knows

-Leonard Cohen

I don't think the current Third Way philosophy of the Democrats is going to change at all if Obama is defeated.
Some sort of revolution, not of the " off with their heads" kind but of the refuse to co- operate kind, will be needed to dismantle the farce of the two- party system.
I think it is much more naive to think that you can rely on the democratic candidates to put their own self- interest aside and work toward the greater good. Not while they are chosen by the corporatists in the DLC.
It seems candidates follow their heart at a local level but when they obtain federal office, well then they start following their wallet.

What kind of non co-operation are you talking about? Sit ins and protests? or just not voting for the dems, because one might work, the other is just a show of unhappiness. Nothing is going to get done via the voting system as it is currently. Not even so much as the vote is rigged as the only options are those pre approved by the masters.

Fukshot wrote:.....the level of cultural balkanization that has happened in US politics.

I lost 5 friends. All of them sent racist shit about Obama.

I was invited to something and when I saw the Faux news sippie cup in their hand, I declined.

The problem is If the Republicans are the German Facists, then the Democrats are the Italian Facists.
I don't want to have anything to do with either one of them.
It's an internal correlation. It's how I feel.

When I came back to the states, I watched the news on TV for about 3 days, and when I saw that most of the stories on Vietnam were lies and distortions, I stopped watching the news. It wasn't until my best friend convinced me to vote for Jimmy Carter (who I couldn't stand) over Ford. I didn't want Ford either (worse) , I just didn't want to vote.

Now I'm done. We don't watch the news any more.
We get all our news from the Daily Show, and The Liberal Gun Club

I'm never paying attention to this shit any more.

OK that's a big lie, because I'm here, but if you are a Conservative, be it Republican or Democrat -

I hate you. You will never be my friend.

I'm still a Liberal

GuitarsandGuns wrote:

Fukshot wrote:.....the level of cultural balkanization that has happened in US politics.

I lost 5 friends. All of them sent racist shit about Obama.

I was invited to something and when I saw the Faux news sippie cup in their hand, I declined.

The problem is If the Republicans are the German Facists, then the Democrats are the Italian Facists.
I don't want to have anything to do with either one of them.
It's an internal correlation. It's how I feel.

When I came back to the states, I watched the news on TV for about 3 days, and when I saw that most of the stories on Vietnam were lies and distortions, I stopped watching the news. It wasn't until my best friend convinced me to vote for Jimmy Carter (who I couldn't stand) over Ford. I didn't want Ford either (worse) , I just didn't want to vote.

Now I'm done. We don't watch the news any more.
We get all our news from the Daily Show, and The Liberal Gun Club

I'm never paying attention to this shit any more.

OK that's a big lie, because I'm here, but if you are a Conservative, be it Republican or Democrat -

I hate you. You will never be my friend.

I'm still a Liberal

We almost bought an HD tantenna over teh weekend, then I pointed out that we'd get teh broadcast news again. My wife put it back on the shelf.

Once again, I am a lucky, lucky guy.

Personally I'm starting to see the 80s all over again. This has happened before, and the results will be the same. Very low voter turn out many voting for 3rd party vanity candidates and reagan er I mean romney creating a conservative super scotus.

The problem is If the Republicans are the German Facists, then the Democrats are the Italian Facists.

actually if you want to get technical for a minute the republicans are the Italian fascists, with their reliance on corporate power. Don't know what you would then classify the dems as, actually they are about the same. Neither are really German fascists.

Inquisitor wrote:So, slow the enemies advance or lose the war and start an insurgency?

That's my choice?

I look at it this way: We're going downhill with both the Democrats and the Republicans. Democrats are going down at the rate of 1x. Republicans are going down at the rate of 1.5x, or 2x, or whatever. Maybe the Republicans are going downhill a little faster, but you're going to hit the bottom with the Democrats anyway.

the comedian wrote:I don't think the current Third Way philosophy of the Democrats is going to change at all if Obama is defeated.
Some sort of revolution, not of the " off with their heads" kind but of the refuse to co- operate kind, will be needed to dismantle the farce of the two- party system.
I think it is much more naive to think that you can rely on the democratic candidates to put their own self- interest aside and work toward the greater good. Not while they are chosen by the corporatists in the DLC.
It seems candidates follow their heart at a local level but when they obtain federal office, well then they start following their wallet.

I expect that you're right. The Democrats are still the party of the 1%. We're not the ones paying for their re-elections. That's their big business buddies. We need a peaceful "revolution", or a Constitutional Convention. In the US, it's hard to think of a revolution as anything but violent because of the American Revolution, but I'm thinking like the Orange or Velvet Revolutions. A Constitutional Convention, in a sane world, would be an excellent way to resolve a variety of issues. But we're too fractured a country for it to work. We would never be able to work together as a country to manage a constitutional convention. It'd lead to a civil war, I expect.

global war is on the horizon anyway. A multitude of economic, geo-political, resource, and climate catastrophes are set to collide within 50 years of each other. One way or another the 22nd century is going to be an interesting time to live in.

gendoikari87 wrote:global war is on the horizon anyway. A multitude of economic, geo-political, resource, and climate catastrophes are set to collide within 50 years of each other. One way or another the 22nd century is going to be an interesting time to live in.

22nd or21st?

Progurt wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:global war is on the horizon anyway. A multitude of economic, geo-political, resource, and climate catastrophes are set to collide within 50 years of each other. One way or another the 22nd century is going to be an interesting time to live in.

22nd or21st?

Shh! He's on a roll.

gendoikari87 wrote:

The problem is If the Republicans are the German Facists, then the Democrats are the Italian Facists.

actually if you want to get technical for a minute the republicans are the Italian fascists, with their reliance on corporate power. Don't know what you would then classify the dems as, actually they are about the same. Neither are really German fascists.

No I don't want to get technical.
One sucks more, one sucks less.
Don't start arguing what words I should use when describing my inner FEELINGS.

The problem is If the Republicans are the German Facists, then the Democrats are the Italian Facists.
I don't want to have anything to do with either one of them.
It's an internal correlation. It's how I feel.

If you want to take what I say out of context and correct me. Then go right ahead. Make your day.

Progurt wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:global war is on the horizon anyway. A multitude of economic, geo-political, resource, and climate catastrophes are set to collide within 50 years of each other. One way or another the 22nd century is going to be an interesting time to live in.

22nd or21st?

I want to say 22nd, that's when the big one, overpopulation is estimated. Oil, economics, climate? Those are just going to be drops in the bucket.

GuitarsandGuns wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

The problem is If the Republicans are the German Facists, then the Democrats are the Italian Facists.

actually if you want to get technical for a minute the republicans are the Italian fascists, with their reliance on corporate power. Don't know what you would then classify the dems as, actually they are about the same. Neither are really German fascists.

No I don't want to get technical.
One sucks more, one sucks less.
Don't start arguing what words I should use when describing my inner FEELINGS.

The problem is If the Republicans are the German Facists, then the Democrats are the Italian Facists.
I don't want to have anything to do with either one of them.
It's an internal correlation. It's how I feel.

If you want to take what I say out of context and correct me. Then go right ahead. Make your day.

Sorry if I offended.