The Liberal Gun Club Forum

A friend on this forum asked me about my impressions of the Russian people.
The people we knew were middle class, as should be in a classless society.
The Muskvites were different from the People of the Ural mountains were our hosts lived.

I love the Russians.

Their physical needs were taken care of. They didn't have a lot of crap consumer goods but they weren't hungry. There were only 3 radio stations.
I found them to be like a bunch of children. They did not feel any responsibility do do anything on their own. They had abusive parents and acted a bit like that.

There were about 16 of us 10 americans and 6 russians there in June.
There was ragweed in the center of all the soviet apartment buildings and all of us, the russians included were full of allergies.

One of the Americans asked - "Why doesn't anyone clean up all this dead vegetation? It would be healthier for all around."

The answer was that the state did not consider that kind of work productive.
If some group or individual were to clean it up they would hated by their neighbors because then the neighbors would possibly be expected to do clean up too and well that's ....work.

You could not buy a new lightbulb in the market. If you had a lamp with no bulb, you would buy a burned out lightbulb from a street vendor. Then you would take your broken lightbulb to work. Then you would take the bulb out of your desklamp or ceiling lamp at work and replace it with the burned out bulb. Then since there was no more light in your office, you would put in a requisition for a replacement bulb and go home because you couldn't work in the dark.

On the way home you may purchase some spirits to enjoy as you read your smuggled western book by the light from your new lamp.

In a few days someone would replace the lightbulb and you would have to go back to ......work.

Russia is too big for the Russians. We flew 5 time zones from Moskva and we were not even in the middle.

What were some of the biggest pluses and the biggest minuses you saw, particularly compared to life in the US at the same time period?

Actually how did you buy stuff over there? like household times, was there anything like a grocery store (or I guess in a society like that PX would be more appropriate)? Economically where would the average russian fall in terms of how americans were doing?

Progurt wrote:What were some of the biggest pluses and the biggest minuses you saw, particularly compared to life in the US at the same time period?

This is too big a country to give a representative answer. They lived in uninspiring tenements. I don't think they had as many people living on the street. No one was going to be homeless for failure to pay rent.
It's a trade off. Crappy housing for no housing.
We went to a village that was founded in the year 800 and was log cabins, Wood heat.
But you can find the same here.

The biggest complaint was how Stalin had fucked them and killed more Russians than anyone..

Svetlana took us to a canal in Moskva that was heding into the city and then it just stopped.
She told us that 30,000 people had died digging the canal. The end of the canal marked the the day Stalin died.

Most of the Americans smoked. The Russians asked us why we smoked since we new about the dangers of smoking.
We said we were stressed out Vietnam Vets.

The Russians ate lots of fatty food and butter. We asked them if they knew about the health hazards of eating all that fat. They told us that they knew and would rather enjoy life and eat well even if it hurts them.

The 30 year olds had hope. The older people were proud of their crappy state. There was spiritual entropy.



More later.

gendoikari87 wrote:Actually how did you buy stuff over there? like household times, was there anything like a grocery store (or I guess in a society like that PX would be more appropriate)? Economically where would the average russian fall in terms of how americans were doing?

Even GUM the state department store in Red Square was pathetic.
The big stuff for sale in Moscva was american jeans and t-shirts for ridiculous prices only in dollars.

In the midwest, They used abacus's in the market. the markets were mostly empty. The black market was where you got things.

Our host family was interesting. Mom worked for Aeroflot and their daughter Julia was on an Aeroflot poster.
Dad I think was a fringe character. Maybe mafia. He could get an NTSC videotape machine at 3:00 AM.
Their fridge was bulging with food.

We drank a lot of booze.

Someday I will post our Drunken Video from the CCCP

My wife recently went to Cuba and absolutely loved everything about it. She visited small towns and cities all over the island and was impressed with how well the system was working despite our 50 years of attempting to ruin their economy.

It was like being back in the 60's. Friends showing up late at night with bottles of vodka or brandy/cognac, chocolate. We danced, played music, sang and really enjoyed each others' company. No dope or drugs that we were aware of.

The family we stayed with actually had a decent sized apartment in one of those 'tenement' type buildings. Two bedrooms and a living room. Kitchen the size of a small square closet. They moved the table into the center of the kitchen for breakfast and there was no room to walk around. In the morning we would have the three C's: cognac, chocolate and coffee.

Windows were double with dead air space between. Inside and outside windows could swing open. In order to regulate the heat in the apartment, you would open the inside window. The outer window often had frost on it. (we were there in November and it was cold.)

The bathroom consisted of two rooms. The toilet was in one room and the other room had a sink and shower with one spigot that swiveled between the sink and the shower. One of the rooms also had the cat box.

The family didn't speak much English and we didn't speak much Russian so we each had a little phrase book that we would use to look up words to communicate with each other when our interpreter wasn't there. I remember the guy, named Stas, short for Stanislov, wore this Raiders tee shirt and he had a big mustache. Looked like an American to us.

As G&G said, the frig was stocked. Stas made a meal that we still call Stas. Russian brown bread, like pumpernickel, with salami, tomato, dill and Russian cheese. Toasted under the broiler. Yum. I remember a long braid of garlic hanging on the wall. We never found out where he got his supplies.

One day G&G made enchiladas with tortillas, enchilada sauce and Mexican cheese we brought from the states. They loved it.

We never got to go out alone. Always with the group. They took us to the store and bought us these fur hats. Very crowded with people, rather sparsely filled shelves. Few places to shop.

When we first arrived in Moscow, they took our passports. And there we were, in the Soviet Union, no papers. our family didn't know exactly where we were and we just trusted the goodness and kindness of our hosts. If there had been any mean intent, I wouldn't be writing this today. The people were great.

more on the Moscow part of the trip later.

Wildvine wrote:It was like being back in the 60's. Friends showing up late at night with bottles of vodka or brandy/cognac, chocolate. We danced, played music, sang and really enjoyed each others' company. No dope or drugs that we were aware of.

The family we stayed with actually had a decent sized apartment in one of those 'tenement' type buildings. Two bedrooms and a living room. Kitchen the size of a small square closet. They moved the table into the center of the kitchen for breakfast and there was no room to walk around. In the morning we would have the three C's: cognac, chocolate and coffee.

Windows were double with dead air space between. Inside and outside windows could swing open. In order to regulate the heat in the apartment, you would open the inside window. The outer window often had frost on it. (we were there in November and it was cold.)

The bathroom consisted of two rooms. The toilet was in one room and the other room had a sink and shower with one spigot that swiveled between the sink and the shower. One of the rooms also had the cat box.

The family didn't speak much English and we didn't speak much Russian so we each had a little phrase book that we would use to look up words to communicate with each other when our interpreter wasn't there. I remember the guy, named Stas, short for Stanislov, wore this Raiders tee shirt and he had a big mustache. Looked like an American to us.

As G&G said, the frig was stocked. Stas made a meal that we still call Stas. Russian brown bread, like pumpernickel, with salami, tomato, dill and Russian cheese. Toasted under the broiler. Yum. I remember a long braid of garlic hanging on the wall. We never found out where he got his supplies.

One day G&G made enchiladas with tortillas, enchilada sauce and Mexican cheese we brought from the states. They loved it.

We never got to go out alone. Always with the group. They took us to the store and bought us these fur hats. Very crowded with people, rather sparsely filled shelves. Few places to shop.

When we first arrived in Moscow, they took our passports. And there we were, in the Soviet Union, no papers. our family didn't know exactly where we were and we just trusted the goodness and kindness of our hosts. If there had been any mean intent, I wouldn't be writing this today. The people were great.

more on the Moscow part of the trip later.

sure that wasn't average, that sounds like a very decent set up, and the american history books tell me it was a horrible place to live.

Edit: one more question, and this is going to sound like a very stupid question because it is, but I just want to make sure: what was the unemployment rate over there like?

I want to comment on this story but my info is limited to a Polish friend that lived thru this. Yes, I know, as has been discussed in previous threads, different countries had different experiences. Gendo, I really don't think that the place G&G and wildvine stayed at was the norm. Seems their hosts may have been in a better position with the gov't given their backgrounds. Please feel free to correct me where I'm wrong G&G or Wildvine.

Given that the Soviet Union collapsed into Russia and breakaway satellite states when I was 9, I'm curious to hear what it was like from people who were personally there. First-hand accounts and so on. Now, as a degenerated worker's state, the Soviet Union would obviously be far from a paradise. I expect it was bad, I'm curious about exactly how bad it was, particularly in relation to what little we've been told, filtered through both American and Soviet propaganda.

Since it's entirely possible that involvement in Afghanistan and elsewhere in the Middle East will be what ultimately bankrupts our own empire (unless we're actually not borrowing billions a day to fund our ultimately futile war efforts), same as it did the Soviets. With that in mind looking at their past seems to me like it could be looking at our future.

Progurt wrote:Given that the Soviet Union collapsed into Russia and breakaway satellite states when I was 9, I'm curious to hear what it was like from people who were personally there. First-hand accounts and so on

OH SNAP! I'll STFU and back on out of here. I guess repeating verbatim what my friend lived thru isn't worthy.

Say whatever you want to say, doesn't make any difference to me.

I remember Glasnost from the late 80's,,seemed Gorbachov and Reagan were always in the news at the time,the Russians war in Afghanistan was an utter failure just like ours and all Ameircans wanted to do was watch MTV and make fun of the photos of Russians standing in line for hours for 1 potato,as wonderful as it was to see the cold war ending it wasn't without sadness felt for the Russian people adjusting to their newly found "freedom".
I was a teenager at the time and what I have written was from my memories,honestly at the time I never really thought to much about it,thans Gand G and Wild vine for the great read,I can't wait for more

What is missing from these posts is the fact that the U.S.S.R. was still recovering from the Great Patriotic War of 1941- 1945, a war that destroyed most of their heavy industry and cost over 20 million Soviet citizens dead.
After that, they had to compete with the West for military dominance.
So, even if they still had the Tsar running things back then, I doubt they would have been doing well.
Oh, BTW, Russia has been a full- fledged capitalist state for 20+ years now. Where's all the freedom?

the comedian wrote:What is missing from these posts is the fact that the U.S.S.R. was still recovering from the Great Patriotic War of 1941- 1945, a war that destroyed most of their heavy industry and cost over 20 million Soviet citizens dead.
After that, they had to compete with the West for military dominance.
So, even if they still had the Tsar running things back then, I doubt they would have been doing well.
Oh, BTW, Russia has been a full- fledged capitalist state for 20+ years now. Where's all the freedom?

Same place ours is, bought and sold.

Progurt wrote:What were some of the biggest pluses and the biggest minuses you saw, particularly compared to life in the US at the same time period?

No toilet paper. Even in the Kremlin. On the second trip we brought toilet paper. It was like gold.
Restaurant food was crappy. The attitude of the PECTOPAH (Restaurant) was fuck you I hate this job I don't get a tip here's your fucking food.

Did I say 3 radio stations? Music or lying propaganda. Your choice.

Knowing you don't live in a free country hurts the mind. It doesn't develop well unless you are a dissident.

My overall impression was that I liked the people and I felt sorry for them.

The newspaper I showed in the thread was a huge fucking deal.
It was the first free newspaper that was published in Sverdlovsk.
It was published in the commie party building. (they thought that was pretty funny)
The significance is they were ALLOWED to do it.
Wildvine mentioned them taking our passports.
The reason they did that was to get our pictures. As soon as we got the paper we got our passports back.
They couldn't just take pictures because there was no film and few facilities to develop it.
So they used a scanner.

It was no workers paradise. The workers didn't want to work.
It sucked. It sucked a lot less than the standard of living they had before.

To get this paradise, They only had to give up freedom of movement.

It was stressed that we were the first Americans to ever visit Sverdlovsk.
Russians could not travel there or leave because it was a CLOSED city.

They had to give up freedom of speech.

One time we were in a restaurant.

I was talking to them about the fact that they were the youth of their country and they were at a point where they could change their country due to Perestroyka.

They pointed at the ceiling. I realized I was fomenting revolution on the border of Siberia. No one had even stamped my passport. We even tried to get our passports stamped. According to my travel history, I only went to England.

When I was first going to travel abroad, I put in a request to Wildvine for tickets to England because the only 2 other countries I had ever visited were full of non-english speaking commies.

Many times Svetlana, our KGB handler warned us that some group we were going to meet weren't friendly to us and we should be careful.

As far as comparing Los Angeles and Sverdlovsk - LA is vibrant. Sverdlovsk is dead. Except for the circus.
They make nukes there. They turned Artillery rounds into Samovars as a gesture of peace. They tried to shoot down Gary Powers in the U2 (they didn't hit him) I should get the tapes on youtube.

I can tell you what the Russians told us.

They said they knew their government lied to them about the US and our citizens.

They judged a country by how well the people live. They wanted to be US

Again THEY WANTED TO BE LIKE US! ... or what they thought we were like.

Progurt wrote:Since it's entirely possible that involvement in Afghanistan and elsewhere in the Middle East will be what ultimately bankrupts our own empire (unless we're actually not borrowing billions a day to fund our ultimately futile war efforts), same as it did the Soviets. With that in mind looking at their past seems to me like it could be looking at our future.

It was the Afghanistan Vets that were our hosts. They compared it to our Vietnam. That's whey they invited Vietnam Vets. They didn't have decent treatment as veterans. When we invaded Afghanistan. I bet they were laughing their asses off at us.

They had commie party guys with them so the soldiers had to be careful what they would talk about.

{Warning - OPINION}We have Christians in our military who perform a similar function.{OPINION}

BTW, I was not making excuses for the crappy Soviet economy or the chauvinistic militaristic oligarchy they had for a government. Just saying there were other reasons for their lack of consumer goods than simple bad management.

the comedian wrote:BTW, I was not making excuses for the crappy Soviet economy or the chauvinistic militaristic oligarchy they had for a government. Just saying there were other reasons for their lack of consumer goods than simple bad management.

Svetlana wore a pair of sunglasses with an "Italia" sticker on the lens, a little oval.
I asked her why she didn't remove it and she told me that Russian sunglasses were shitty.
By having the sticker, it showed the other Russians that she was special, that she had been allowed to go abroad.
She called herself "The Fake Rich."

Stas, on the other hand, had a house full of food, could acquire anything you needed, and people would deliver things.
He was some kind of capitalist. The KGB turned to him to provide a nice experience for us.

Svetlana was actually the KGB agent in charge. I found this out when I got back to the states and I had a former soviet major and cia double agent sit with me as I went through the videotapes. I used 2 cameras and I told the other operater do not turn it off let the tape run out. So Svetlana was wearing a wireless mic and didn't know that even my footage was of the floor, the audio was her telling the captains of the Uralmash plant how to behave and what to say.

Anyway, her husband was some kind of police detective. (we never met him)
She took us to her apartment. It was pretty poor. We had brought jiffy-pop popcorn and we made some. She didn't have a bowl to put it in. Really nice tailored clothes and a shabby apartment. Just like New Yorkers.
We joked about it

Everyone paid the same rent.
The Americans kept trying to compare the money. It was like 900 rubles to the dollar.
I compared hours worked. 1/2 hour to buy a pack of cigarettes. 1 week for 1 months rent.

Think about this, If everyone pays the same rent, then they all have to get the same size place, No one can have a bigger place, It isn't fair to the rest.

As far as Soviet consumer goods sucking it is cause there was no incentive to make things of quality,
combined with a hyper inflated currency where no on could import or export things.

I brought aspirin and gave it to a doctor we had met the first time. He was grateful because the Russian aspirin was fake and didn't to shit.


Keeping people from leaving a country isn't a good idea.

whitey wrote:I want to comment on this story but my info is limited to a Polish friend that lived thru this. Yes, I know, as has been discussed in previous threads, different countries had different experiences. Gendo, I really don't think that the place G&G and wildvine stayed at was the norm. Seems their hosts may have been in a better position with the gov't given their backgrounds. Please feel free to correct me where I'm wrong G&G or Wildvine.

I would say they were people who were considered middle class by their own standards.
It helped to be Russian.

The first trip it was GOVT approved and we got VIP treatment sll the way.

The second trip was actually personal so we did get to see how fucked up it was. We were not connected anymore as the Govt' was in meltdown.

We couldn't get a cab out of Sheremetyevo airport because it was like Vietnam 1975. People panicking and trying to get away. So Misha bribed a Sosisko Bus driver and the 5 of us went into the snowy night in a huge empty bus.

I think we got to see about 4 sides of Russia.

It sounds like you have led a very interesting life, I have been enjoying what you have written.
I also watched some of your you tube vids very nice.............great guitar playing lots of talent..

Thank you, G&G and Wild.