The Liberal Gun Club Forum

https://www.upworthy.com/health-care-de ... aves?c=o98

*facepalm*

Bernie has an amazing capacity for self restraint.

The Pauls, the Bushes, where does it end? The Rommmmneys? Oh how cute! Mlia Obama for president. 2028

Why don't we just elect a family to be kings? sheesshh!

GuitarsandGuns wrote:The Pauls, the Bushes, where does it end? The Rommmmneys? Oh how cute! Mlia Obama for president. 2028

Why don't we just elect a family to be kings? sheesshh!

because the important part is the ILLUSION of freedom and democracy.

Sorry but, Rand Paul is not a physician, he's an opthamologist that's not even recognized by the American board so he created his board.

whitey wrote:Sorry but, Rand Paul is not a physician, he's an opthamologist that's not even recognized by the American board so he created his board.

It hurts me to look at him. He reminds me of this SS guy from WW2.
Can he be forced to fix it under his slavery theory? Medically he'd have to remove himself from human sight.

Sorry this guy is one of the worst ever.

GuitarsandGuns wrote:Why don't we just elect a family to be kings? sheesshh!

Hillary's running again??

Paul makes an interesting point: what is a right? He's far too melodramatic, but nonetheless...

A right to healthcare is a right to wait in line. A right to be denied. Other countries ration healthcare via universal coverage. We do it via health insurance companies. A couple of years back, a friend whined about Obama death panels. I chuckled and said we already got that. It's called denial of coverage. Insurance companies do it all the time. Insurance companies already ration healthcare. The VA, the same. Or Medicare. We actually have a wonderfully disparate health care system. There's all these ways to get it in this country. Unless of course you want something like Gerson Therapy or another alternative modality.

I'm grateful healthcare is as broken as it is...call me crazy. I just wish it wasn't so expensive (another thing Obama's done nothing about). But, hey, there are those doctors who take cash only.

A child has a $4000 per month drug dependency. The child has an extended life expectancy of 1 year because of the drug and will most likely die at the age of 4.

12 people need a surgery that cost each $4000. They were all apparently healthy, in their 20's with family's they were supporting. They either had accidents or some other unexpected cause of illness.

In one year it costs the same to keep 1 child alive as to save 12 people.

Now if you have enough healthy people who pay into the system (or taxes) this can still work.

But the greedy people in the health care system with all the lawyers and administrators and stockholders in drug company's and CEO's etc., will always insert themselves between the patient and the doctor.

Even a good intentioned insurance company or system has a dilemma.

The weird thing is we live in a relatively recent time where there is actually such a thing as health insurance.

It's a tough problem for all.

I think universal healthcare is a good idea but I have my issues with it.The mandation part of it pisses me off as we should have a right to chose not have it forced on us,I know there are a few other things about it also but I can't remember what they are at the moment

Vodkin wrote:I think universal healthcare is a good idea but I have my issues with it.The mandation part of it pisses me off as we should have a right to chose not have it forced on us,I know there are a few other things about it also but I can't remember what they are at the moment

True universal healthcare i.e., single payer, would not require a mandate, you would be automatically covered thru paying a little more in taxes. The affordable care act is a bonus to the insurance companies because you're forced to buy into it.

whitey wrote: True universal healthcare i.e., single payer, would not require a mandate, you would be automatically covered thru paying a little more in taxes.

Yep, that's how it should be.

whitey wrote: True universal healthcare i.e., single payer, would not require a mandate, you would be automatically covered thru paying a little more in taxes. The affordable care act is a bonus to the insurance companies because you're forced to buy into it.

DUH!


Edit: fixed quote

Yeah, the mandate was a republican idea from the Hillary-care days. It is a bad idea on it's own, and probably is as part of the Affordable Health Care Act, but the AHCA was never meant to be the end of the discussion in the first place. There was no way in hell single payer was getting through the 111th congress, and it sure as hell isn't getting through 112th, so AHCA is apparently the best we can do. It was intended to pave the way for single payer in the future, but of course elections have consequences, and who wins the next two or three presidential and congressional cycles will determine a good deal of the direction we go from here.

Regardless, the health insurance industry should be reduced down to a size small enough to drown in a bath tub. It should be zeroed out. They should all be forced to seek other means of income, possibly in manufacturing, and their lobbyists should all be forced into service industry jobs, preferably involving the phrase "would you like fries with that?"

They invented this system we have now because they needed a custom made environment for them to suck up as much money as corporately possible. That any of us receive any level of health care out of the deal is merely incidental to them, and it better not cut into their profits or by god you can just forget about it. Medical professionals, and to some degree even big pharma had little choice in playing along, and now they're all addicted to the viscous circle and we're all stuck giving our money to heartless, gutless bureaucrats in swanky insurance company offices.

I was shocked and appalled that the health insurance industry had a seat at the table during the AHCA debates. The police would never ask a burglar sitting in an interrogation room to come up with a new security system for the house he just broke into, and yet that's just what congress was doing. It would be nice to see a health insurance company with it's hands in it's own pockets for a change. Yeah, I don't fucking like the health insurance industry one single bit, and I'm through listening to solutions which include them.

Rand Paul was arguing one of the biggest, fattest straw man arguments I've heard in a long time. No one has ever suggested that doctors simply don't get paid and he knows it. Medical professionals would still be paid, just as they are in other countries. Where the money comes from, and how it's allocated is all that would really change. Health insurance would still exist too. If, for some retarded reason, you'd rather take your chances with a dubious corporate entity of as highly questionable moral fiber as your average health insurance company, you still could. No one would tell you that you couldn't. Perhaps you just want to have it as a back up to could cover necessities such as non-reconstructive breast augmentation, rogaine, Viagra and all of those super important things that Universal wouldn't. You could do that.

Honestly, I believe we all spend enough in individual income tax to pay for a decent universal health care system, but the money is going elsewhere. Given a choice, I'd roll back %20 of my tax dollars off of defense and channel it to health care. Maybe even 30% and channel 10-15% towards education. That's what I think is important and I'm willing to pay taxes for it. I'm not willing to pay for starting wars in Iraq and other things we really have no need for.

I'm just ranting now, sorry. I really hate the health insurance industry...

whitey wrote:

Vodkin wrote:I think universal healthcare is a good idea but I have my issues with it.The mandation part of it pisses me off as we should have a right to chose not have it forced on us,I know there are a few other things about it also but I can't remember what they are at the moment

True universal healthcare i.e., single payer, would not require a mandate, you would be automatically covered thru paying a little more in taxes. The affordable care act is a bonus to the insurance companies because you're forced to buy into it.

I'm not a big fan of paying more in taxes either,I pay enough as it is I make around 20,000 a year with child support coming out of that,not much wiggle room in my budget for that kinda stuff,when the Healthcare bill was passed my boss found the perfect reason to raise our end of the insurance package causing me to drop it,lucky for me I have Healthcare through my wifes plan which better than my prior anyhow ,I also hate the Healthcare industry,if any industry needs an overhaul of ethics and price control healthcare would be it

While this observation may seem pedantic, when I hear the type of bullshit spouted by Rand Paul, I begin to wonder if we've gotten too careless with language.

Does it mean anything anymore?

Single-payer is "slavery"? Slavery involves the physical OWNERSHIP of another human being. It involves confiscating the labor of another person without payment. It involves being able to rob, rape, and/or beat another human with impunity.

Let's take this logic in another direction. I'm a massage therapist. It is ILLEGAL for me to refuse treatment to anyone based on race, religion, or gender. In Paul's world, I'm being "forced" by the state to provide treatment in the sense that I'm not allowed to discriminate. However, do I consider myself a slave? NO! Are state requirements that govern my profession a form of tyranny? NO!

People like Paul have a fucked up idea of what constitutes "slavery"? As Molly Ivans once said, libertarians can't seem to distinguish inconvenience from tyranny.

Van wrote:While this observation may seem pedantic, when I hear the type of bullshit spouted by Rand Paul, I begin to wonder if we've gotten too careless with language.

Your observation is pertinent. I would not call that being pedantic.

GuitarsandGuns wrote:

whitey wrote: True universal healthcare i.e., single payer, would not require a mandate, you would be automatically covered thru paying a little more in taxes. The affordable care act is a bonus to the insurance companies because you're forced to buy into it.

DUH!


Thank you Whitey. There is no other solution. At least to me.

The DUH! is this is what I've been saying all along, and when the Obama Administration did it the way they did it,
I couldn't fucking believe it. I couldn't fucking believe that the Dems would do anything other than single payer.

Dino's - I spit on you!

All we have to to is stop making so many war toys. Health care paid.
We could have it all but instead our country would rather strut around like George Bush pretending he has a big dick.

This is a bit from the novel All Quiet on the Western Front. Kind of relevant.

At this point in the book, the main character, Paul Bäumer, is home on leave. He's visiting with his father and discussing the state of his mother, who is in the hospital suffering with cancer. His father is voicing his anxieties over the as yet unknown costs of her care and treatment, fearing that the doctor would take any inquiries as to cost "amiss".

Bäumer reflects:

"That's how it is with us, and with all poor people. They don't dare ask the price, but worry themselves dreadfully beforehand about it; but the others, for whom it is not important, they settle the price first as a matter of course, and the doctor does not take it amiss from them."

Vodkin wrote: I'm not a big fan of paying more in taxes either...lucky for me I have Healthcare through my wifes plan which better than my prior anyhow...

You have paid for it in the past when you did have an employee benefit, paid by your employer. Your are currently paying for it through your wife's employer.

By administering health care through the government, as in Medicare, we would eliminate the profits that we pay to the health insurance companies. I don't know what it would save, but the insurance companies post profits of billions. Those billions are coming out of your employee-paid benefits, part of what you are paid in return for your labor. Eliminate one expense, and make it up with a tax where you don't have to subsidize the fancy corporate offices, the private jets, the CEO profits, etc.

The administrative cost savings alone compared between Medicare and private companies would further increase your tax dollar spent on health care as compared to what we currently have.

Plus we would not have shitty insurance coverage and a constant battle with the insurance companies once we do get sick or injured.

I'll pay a tax for single-payer health care, Medicare for all, whatever it might be called, over paying a private insurance company any day.

Van wrote:As Molly Ivans once said, libertarians can't seem to distinguish inconvenience from tyranny.

Nail on the motherfuckin head!

Fukshot wrote:

Van wrote:As Molly Ivans once said, libertarians can't seem to distinguish inconvenience from tyranny.

Nail on the motherfuckin head!

I don't know who said it, but it has also been said that libertarians are anarchists who want police to protect them from their slaves.

Yossarian wrote:

Fukshot wrote:

Van wrote:As Molly Ivans once said, libertarians can't seem to distinguish inconvenience from tyranny.

Nail on the motherfuckin head!

I don't know who said it, but it has also been said that libertarians are anarchists who want police to protect them from their slaves.

I believe that was uttered by SI Fi author Kim Stanley Robinson.

Here's a quote from me:

"Some say 'A conservative is a liberal who's been mugged.'"

Wrong.

A Marxist is a liberal who's been mugged! A conservative is just someone with a shitty attitude."

Man, I can see you know what's going on with THIS topic! Food for thought- EVERY industrial nation but the US of A has single payer health insurance. So we have THAT may stupid people? Guess so. How many Americans think Ronnie Raygun was a great President? The bastard robbed us blind- TRIPLING the deficit- while setting up Nazis in Central America to kill nuns and any others who got in the way of the right wing gummints there. Case closed.

Best,
Bill in Cleveland