The Liberal Gun Club Forum

The news account states the pirates off of Somali are arming themselves more heavily, killing or injuring captives, demading ransoms only in $100 dollar bills dropped from a plane. It has turned into a "badlands area" over there and the challenge is what to do to stop it ? Who? How? With what? Negotiations with the leaders? Invasion ?

Personally, I think the maritime trades should require and have trained well armed combatants on each ship going through those waters with "shoot to kill orders if attacked " !

How would you handle it if it was your ships and employees / friends, etc. in the area?

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/06/04 ... y-violent/

we've got a mothball flotilla/fleet in California don't we? why not train some people to man relic ships to escort these ships through....sounds dumb i know..

fishingal wrote:The news account states the pirates off of Somali are arming themselves more heavily, killing or injuring captives, demading ransoms only in $100 dollar bills dropped from a plane. It has turned into a "badlands area" over there and the challenge is what to do to stop it ? Who? How? With what? Negotiations with the leaders? Invasion ?

Personally, I think the maritime trades should require and have trained well armed combatants on each ship going through those waters with "shoot to kill orders if attacked " !

How would you handle it if it was your ships and employees / friends, etc. in the area?

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/06/04 ... y-violent/

If it was me and my friends/family? I'd be buying a barrett and hiding it somewhere onboard. AP rounds if I could find them.

Letters of Marque and Reprisal.

Too bad crewing a ship just for such a journey would only be within reach for the most rich.

RambaRal wrote:we've got a mothball flotilla/fleet in California don't we? why not train some people to man relic ships to escort these ships through....sounds dumb i know..

The mothball fleet is pretty much all gone to scrap.

I can remember rows and rows of mothballed warships at Mare Island near Vallejo and other places around SF Bay as recently as the 1970s, but they are gone now.

fishingal wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/06/04 ... y-violent/

I'd stop watching Fox News. That's how I'd deal with the situation.

OMG! the poor poor capitalists don't have a stable enough government to manipulate in to protecting their interests. It's a freakin' crisis! Funny how you don't hear much about all the civilians our government is killing all over the world on that channel, but a dozen people getting kidnapped every few months? That's news because it is costing ship owners money.

larrymod wrote:

RambaRal wrote:we've got a mothball flotilla/fleet in California don't we? why not train some people to man relic ships to escort these ships through....sounds dumb i know..

The mothball fleet is pretty much all gone to scrap.

I can remember rows and rows of mothballed warships at Mare Island near Vallejo and other places around SF Bay as recently as the 1970s, but they are gone now.

well damn...should pay someone to do something about them... >.>

Fukshot wrote:

fishingal wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/06/04 ... y-violent/

I'd stop watching Fox News. That's how I'd deal with the situation.

OMG! the poor poor capitalists don't have a stable enough government to manipulate in to protecting their interests. It's a freakin' crisis! Funny how you don't hear much about all the civilians our government is killing all over the world on that channel, but a dozen people getting kidnapped every few months? That's news because it is costing ship owners money.

x2

Also, having done a few reports on the situation in Somalia, the illegal fishing ships and toxic waste dumpers from other countries, the people that many of the pirates initially organized to fight, still go unpunished and unreported.

Fukshot wrote:

fishingal wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/06/04 ... y-violent/

I'd stop watching Fox News. That's how I'd deal with the situation.

OMG! the poor poor capitalists don't have a stable enough government to manipulate in to protecting their interests. It's a freakin' crisis! Funny how you don't hear much about all the civilians our government is killing all over the world on that channel, but a dozen people getting kidnapped every few months? That's news because it is costing ship owners money.

Just for the record, I read all the internet news sites also such as CNN, MSNBC, ABC, assorted other news outlets depending on the story I may be interested in . Also, happen to have a brother in law who works on tankers that go through that area once in a while so have a personal interest in his safety along with his shipmates.

Regardless, if it is a few or a bunch of people killed, tortured or maimed by these pirates, I find reprehensible. All criminal death is awful. I have heard about the many civilian deaths by our drones and other military means which is done in time of combat per se by all sides. They they say it is OK if in a war situation ? IE: Assad presently ?

The inital point was about all the worlds shipping that goes through this area being hijacked by the Somali poor without a government of their own to control them. So should we all just shrug our shoulders and not protect our commercial interest around the World and it will go away somehow ? I don't think avoidance is the proper strategy. Require appropriate self protection in this region by the shippers to sail it is a good start to stop the piracy or slow it down a lot.

Just my thought.

Fukshot wrote:

fishingal wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/06/04 ... y-violent/

I'd stop watching Fox News. That's how I'd deal with the situation.

OMG! the poor poor capitalists don't have a stable enough government to manipulate in to protecting their interests. It's a freakin' crisis! Funny how you don't hear much about all the civilians our government is killing all over the world on that channel, but a dozen people getting kidnapped every few months? That's news because it is costing ship owners money.

You're making too much sense.

Stick a couple of M240's on both sides of the ship. If that's not enough, also put a minigun, M2, or Mk. 19 on each side.

gendoikari87 wrote:

fishingal wrote:The news account states the pirates off of Somali are arming themselves more heavily, killing or injuring captives, demading ransoms only in $100 dollar bills dropped from a plane. It has turned into a "badlands area" over there and the challenge is what to do to stop it ? Who? How? With what? Negotiations with the leaders? Invasion ?

Personally, I think the maritime trades should require and have trained well armed combatants on each ship going through those waters with "shoot to kill orders if attacked " !

How would you handle it if it was your ships and employees / friends, etc. in the area?

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/06/04 ... y-violent/

If it was me and my friends/family? I'd be buying a barrett and hiding it somewhere onboard. AP rounds if I could find them.

Not enough dakka.

Progurt wrote: x2
Also, having done a few reports on the situation in Somalia, the illegal fishing ships and toxic waste dumpers from other countries, the people that many of the pirates initially organized to fight, still go unpunished and unreported.

x3 Spot on. Flipside, Xe, formerly Blackwater, now provides maritime security as a response.

fishingal wrote:
The inital point was about all the worlds shipping that goes through this area being hijacked by the Somali poor without a government of their own to control them. So should we all just shrug our shoulders and not protect our commercial interest around the World and it will go away somehow ? I don't think avoidance is the proper strategy. Require appropriate self protection in this region by the shippers to sail it is a good start to stop the piracy or slow it down a lot.

Just my thought.

Too many guns, and too many desperately poor people over there for such a band-aid approach to work.

The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Somalia is 550,000 to 750,000.
The defence forces of Somalia are reported to have 106,750 firearms.
Police in Somalia are reported to have 14,672 firearms.
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/somalia

Somalia must be a wingnut's wet dream - really small government and few if any gun control laws enforced.

But hey, did you really complain about the Somalian poor "without a government of their own to control them"? Say it ain't so...

I live in a country where the poor have a government of their own to control them. It ain't all it's cracked up to be (at least not for the poor).

AdAstra wrote:

fishingal wrote:
The inital point was about all the worlds shipping that goes through this area being hijacked by the Somali poor without a government of their own to control them. So should we all just shrug our shoulders and not protect our commercial interest around the World and it will go away somehow ? I don't think avoidance is the proper strategy. Require appropriate self protection in this region by the shippers to sail it is a good start to stop the piracy or slow it down a lot.

Just my thought.

Too many guns, and too many desperately poor people over there for such a band-aid approach to work.

The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Somalia is 550,000 to 750,000.
The defence forces of Somalia are reported to have 106,750 firearms.
Police in Somalia are reported to have 14,672 firearms.
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/somalia

Somalia must be a wingnut's wet dream - really small government and few if any gun control laws enforced.

But hey, did you really complain about the Somalian poor "without a government of their own to control them"? Say it ain't so...

I believe in legal government and following the law and enforcing the legal laws equally. Somali to the best of my knowledge lacks such a government and the land is basically lawless. If expecting others to follow laws is wrong here then I don't know else to say ? Equal laws for everyone and hopefully equal justice too. Countries must enforce laws with their citizens or you have chaos, like we have in Samoli ?

Fukshot wrote:I live in a country where the poor have a government of their own to control them. It ain't all it's cracked up to be (at least not for the poor).

The key is legal and just control in a society. I am not talking about dictator type controls. Sorry if I am not being clear on what I mean.

fishingal wrote:

Fukshot wrote:I live in a country where the poor have a government of their own to control them. It ain't all it's cracked up to be (at least not for the poor).

The key is legal and just control in a society. I am not talking about dictator type controls. Sorry if I am not being clear on what I mean.

Oh, nevermind. I don't live in a place like that.

Progurt wrote:

1) Good video and I understand and agree with the message on it.
I feel like we are talking apples and oranges here ?

Yes, corporate greed, and currupt imperialistic government prevails, and yes minorities are abused and singled out for injustice and , and money talks as we all know and makes all World a competitive glabal power grab battleground. OK ?

My whole point is, these are bandits, just like the cartels in Mexico, or the mob in Russia, or other thugs and gangs everywhere. The good of the majority prevails or we have chaos and mob rule which cannot be condoned if it deprives the majority of their rights.

Civilizations must have some order and controls to exist effectively for the good of it's people, some exist this way fairly good, some are downright ugly controllers. We have SOME control over our destiny in America, not perfect, but better than most, but we have to follow the rules to survive or face the consquences. The same as a job and the companies rules and policies and expectations of behavior.

So, for the good of international commerce of the goods you and everyone else damands and needs, these unfortunate, deprived and ignorant people have to be dealt with on the same terms that they are giving us to maintain order in a crazy and violent World of power grabbers. Call it the law of the jungle ? This is the way it is and it will not stop until we all blow our asses up with a bombing war out of greed.

PEACE ALREADY ?

There are legal and insurance hassels preventing merchant shipping companies from arming their vessels.
As far as the U.S. Navy patrolling the area, they do what they can but the response time has to be very quick and finding the ship under attack isn't easy even these days.
Send obsolete vessels to protect a shipping lane that mainly supplies the E.U. and Asia? Too costly to justify protecting someone else's interests.

What I'm getting at is that unless we treat and resolve the underlying causes behind the piracy, anything we try to do to fight the piracy itself will be ultimately a futile gesture. Too often as a country we try to treat the symptoms and not the diseases... usually because treating the symptoms is quick and violent and treating the disease is slow and complicated and boring.

Progurt wrote:What I'm getting at is that unless we treat and resolve the underlying causes behind the piracy, anything we try to do to fight the piracy itself will be ultimately a futile gesture. Too often as a country we try to treat the symptoms and not the diseases... usually because treating the symptoms is quick and violent and treating the disease is slow and complicated and boring.

Somalia has been a ruin for so long. With no standing navy or coast guard, the fishing grounds just offshore have been decimated by foreign factory ships overharvesting as well as rampant dumping of toxic waste. BBC ran a piece a few years back about radioactive barrels of waste being washed onshore by the 2005 tsunami. How to restore the fishing economy?

I'm just spitballing here, but I wonder if the world's navvies could work with the more reasonable and non-crazy-violent pirate forces to create a Somali navy that would work with the world navvies to patrol and defend against illegal fishers and dumpers, and also protect legitimate shipping traffic and fight the more unreasonable Somali pirates.

Fundamentally, the pirates are looking to make a living in a bad situation. The fact that they take hostages and ransom them and the cargoes of the ships they take shows that they're not unreasonable bloodthirsty madmen, but businessmen trying to get by. It wouldn't be the first time a treaty has been used to deal with a corsair problem.

hagagaga wrote:Stick a couple of M240's on both sides of the ship. If that's not enough, also put a minigun, M2, or Mk. 19 on each side.

Now we're cooking...