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Re: Shameless Socialist Propaganda Picture Thread!!! BUMP BU
Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:16 pm
by gendoikari87
bumDharma wrote:
It's way easier to attack a strawman than the truth, isn't it?
Did you bother to read my earlier post about mixed economies at all? A lot of times you guys are just as bad as the wingers when it comes time to have an honest conversation. You're long on indignation and short on the ideas to actually do anything about it.
yes I did, but your missing the point. Capitalism is simply the personal ownership of the means of production. So the oligarchicy you mention, that's capitalism, whether or not you want to call it that. It might not be your particular form of capitalism, but crony capitalism, hyper capitalism, they are all part of the same tree just as marxists, leninists, democratic socialists and anarcho syndicalists are all socialists.
Re: Shameless Socialist Propaganda Picture Thread!!! BUMP BU
Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:23 pm
by bumDharma
gendoikari87 wrote:bumDharma wrote:
It's way easier to attack a strawman than the truth, isn't it?
Did you bother to read my earlier post about mixed economies at all? A lot of times you guys are just as bad as the wingers when it comes time to have an honest conversation. You're long on indignation and short on the ideas to actually do anything about it.
yes I did, but your missing the point. Capitalism is simply the personal ownership of the means of production. So the oligarchicy you mention, that's capitalism, whether or not you want to call it that. It might not be your particular form of capitalism, but crony capitalism, hyper capitalism, they are all part of the same tree just as marxists, leninists, democratic socialists and anarcho syndicalists are all socialists.
There can be personal ownership of the means of production without it being an oligarchy. Immigrant shop owners everywhere kind of prove this. You're refusal to acknowledge that distorts what capitalism actually is. I'd posit an oligarchy has a lot more in common with Leninism than you'd be comfortable to admit.
Re: Shameless Socialist Propaganda Picture Thread!!! BUMP BU
Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:33 pm
by gendoikari87
bumDharma wrote:gendoikari87 wrote:bumDharma wrote:
It's way easier to attack a strawman than the truth, isn't it?
Did you bother to read my earlier post about mixed economies at all? A lot of times you guys are just as bad as the wingers when it comes time to have an honest conversation. You're long on indignation and short on the ideas to actually do anything about it.
yes I did, but your missing the point. Capitalism is simply the personal ownership of the means of production. So the oligarchicy you mention, that's capitalism, whether or not you want to call it that. It might not be your particular form of capitalism, but crony capitalism, hyper capitalism, they are all part of the same tree just as marxists, leninists, democratic socialists and anarcho syndicalists are all socialists.
There can be personal ownership of the means of production without it being an oligarchy. Immigrant shop owners everywhere kind of prove this. You're refusal to acknowledge that distorts what capitalism actually is. I'd posit an oligarchy has a lot more in common with Leninism than you'd be comfortable to admit.
I don't reject it. If I gave you that impression i apologize. A town full of individual shop owners is a capitalist society. However, a single man owning all of those shops is also a capitalist society. As for leninism, it's top down socialism, which I reject as a good system but it was still socialism, Stalinists on the other hand well... there's debate on whether there really is control over the means of production in the hands of the people, thus constituting true socialism. I'm not a stalinist, so i leave that one alone.
Re: Shameless Socialist Propaganda Picture Thread!!! BUMP BU
Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:38 pm
by bumDharma
gendoikari87 wrote:
People who control vast monopolies aren't capitalists by any strict definition.
cap·i·tal·ist [kap-i-tl-ist]
Look at me, I'm a big boy who can read the dictionary. It totally validates my argument and proves you wrong , even though what someone wrote in the dictionary bears little real resemblance to what is actually going on in the world...
Two can play this game.
ol·i·gar·chy
[ol-i-gahr-kee]
noun, plural -chies.
1.
a form of government in which all power is vested in a few persons or in a dominant class or clique; government by the few.
2.
a state or organization so ruled.
3.
the persons or class so ruling.
Oh so rule by a clique. Sort of like the Politburo, or the Internationale. They're in good company with the US Chamber of Commerce and the Bilderbergers I guess...
At least the anarcho-syndicalists sort of believe in something like democracy.
In summary, capitalism depends on competition, which is something those who run an oligarchy certainly do not want...
Re: Shameless Socialist Propaganda Picture Thread!!! BUMP BU
Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:06 pm
by the comedian
bumDharma wrote:[
Oh so rule by a clique. Sort of like the Politburo, or the Internationale. They're in good company with the US Chamber of Commerce and the Bilderbergers I guess...
What in the hell did the Internationale rule? It was either an international workingman's association or a song.At least the anarcho-syndicalists sort of believe in something like democracy.
In summary, capitalism depends on competition, which is something those who run an oligarchy certainly do not want...
Allright professor, you identified the problem. What is your solution? 
Re: Shameless Socialist Propaganda Picture Thread!!! BUMP BU
Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:13 pm
by bumDharma
the comedian wrote:bumDharma wrote:[
Oh so rule by a clique. Sort of like the Politburo, or the Internationale. They're in good company with the US Chamber of Commerce and the Bilderbergers I guess...
What in the hell did the Internationale rule? It was either an international workingman's association or a song.At least the anarcho-syndicalists sort of believe in something like democracy.
In summary, capitalism depends on competition, which is something those who run an oligarchy certainly do not want...
Allright professor, you identified the problem. What is your solution?
I'm not entirely sure what it is, but outright rejection of the things capitalism does do well, or rejection of things that socialism does well are part of the problem.
That said, an honest conversation with a eye towards building a working consensus would be a start. Also building a society where everyone has to buy-in (and no, I don't mean some stupid "fair tax" either,
) to preserve it's institutions would be a laudable goal.
Re: Shameless Socialist Propaganda Picture Thread!!! BUMP BU
Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:14 pm
by gendoikari87
I also never said we don't live in an oligarchy, the question is how do you think we got that way?
Re: Shameless Socialist Propaganda Picture Thread!!! BUMP BU
Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:15 pm
by bumDharma
gendoikari87 wrote:I also never said we don't live in an oligarchy, the question is how do you think we got that way?
Lots of factors, but capitalism itself isn't the whole story.
Re: Shameless Socialist Propaganda Picture Thread!!! BUMP BU
Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:16 pm
by gendoikari87
bumDharma wrote:gendoikari87 wrote:I also never said we don't live in an oligarchy, the question is how do you think we got that way?
Lots of factors, but capitalism itself isn't the whole story.
Not the whole story no, but it was a contributing factor. Again the original theories behind capitalism were sound and good, but in practice they are much different than their theory.
Re: Shameless Socialist Propaganda Picture Thread!!! BUMP BU
Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:45 pm
by the comedian
gendoikari87 wrote:bumDharma wrote:gendoikari87 wrote:I also never said we don't live in an oligarchy, the question is how do you think we got that way?
Lots of factors, but capitalism itself isn't the whole story.
Not the whole story no, but it was a contributing factor. Again the original theories behind capitalism were sound and good, but in practice they are much different than their theory.
Adam Smith, who was for regulated markets, did not forsee the rapid and massive accumulation of wealth in the hands of a few ( capitalists ) that was the result of the Industrial revolution. The philosophy of the unfettered market, i.e.
lassiez- faire capitalism, arose during this time. It was not one of the founding economic principles of the U.S.A.
Re: Shameless Socialist Propaganda Picture Thread!!! BUMP BU
Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:57 pm
by gendoikari87
The whole theory behind regulated capitalism however breaks down when you realize you can buy politicians though.
Re: Shameless Socialist Propaganda Picture Thread!!! BUMP BU
Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:06 pm
by bumDharma
gendoikari87 wrote:The whole theory behind regulated capitalism however breaks down when you realize you can buy politicians though.
And this doesn't apply to other systems how?
Strict laws must be made, even if they are made at gunpoint, that prevent this. And it has to be that way for /any/ system. King John didn't sign the Magna Carta because he was a jolly good fellow.
Funny how this all comes round full circle to the reason why we even have this discussion board...
Re: Shameless Socialist Propaganda Picture Thread!!! BUMP BU
Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:09 pm
by gendoikari87
bumDharma wrote:gendoikari87 wrote:The whole theory behind regulated capitalism however breaks down when you realize you can buy politicians though.
And this doesn't apply to other systems how?
Strict laws must be made, even if they are made at gunpoint, that prevent this. And it has to be that way for /any/ system.
oh it does to some degree, corruption is eternal. Hell, even when your position is guaranteed by god you can subject to that kind of corruption.
Re: Shameless Socialist Propaganda Picture Thread!!! BUMP BU
Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:21 am
by Progurt
The core principle behind anarcho-syndicalism and Kropotkin's anarchism is that any government is corruptible and unreliable, and any capitalist system is corruptible and unreliable, with problems worsening as the system continues to survive and grow. As a result, the only sane and long-term stable option is an absolute minimum of decentralized government and economy.
In this work, Kropotkin points out what he considers to be the defects of the economic systems of feudalism and capitalism, and how he believes they thrive on and maintain poverty and scarcity, in spite of being in a time of abundance thanks to technology, while promoting privilege. He goes on to propose a more decentralised economic system based on mutual aid and voluntary cooperation, asserting that the tendencies for this kind of organisation already exist, both in evolution and in human society. He also talks about details of revolution and expropriation in order not to end in a reactionary way.
Re: Shameless Socialist Propaganda Picture Thread!!! BUMP BU
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:36 pm
by GuitarsandGuns
Not necessarily socialist but definitely Soviet.
Just going through our Soviet junk drawer.
Re: Shameless Socialist Propaganda Picture Thread!!! BUMP BU
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:38 pm
by gendoikari87
Re: Shameless Socialist Propaganda Picture Thread!!! BUMP BU
Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:14 am
by the comedian
Old British cartoon:
Re: Shameless Socialist Propaganda Picture Thread!!! BUMP BU
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:12 am
by the comedian
Re: Shameless Socialist Propaganda Picture Thread!!! BUMP BU
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:44 am
by gendoikari87
Oh god, zombie lenin, shoot him before he fucks up another revolution!
Re: Shameless Socialist Propaganda Picture Thread!!! BUMP BU
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:52 am
by Grimstad
gendoikari87 wrote:okay close enough
Who says socialists don't know how to ridiculously waste large amounts of money on a good time?
Re: Shameless Socialist Propaganda Picture Thread!!! BUMP BU
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:47 am
by GuitarsandGuns
Re: Shameless Socialist Propaganda Picture Thread!!! BUMP BU
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:43 am
by the comedian
***
Re: Shameless Socialist Propaganda Picture Thread!!! BUMP BU
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:07 am
by whitey
gendoikari87 wrote:okay close enough
What a bunch of assholes.
Re: Shameless Socialist Propaganda Picture Thread!!! BUMP BU
Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:56 am
by the comedian
Re: Shameless Socialist Propaganda Picture Thread!!! BUMP BU
Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:10 am
by gendoikari87
whitey wrote:gendoikari87 wrote:okay close enough
What a bunch of assholes.
No, the assholes are the ones wasting such vast resources on personal car when children are starving. Capitalism claims that we live in a scarcity based economy (which is true), and then goes and does wasteful shit like this. Now, tell me how that makes any sense.
