Re: GOP gov’s Ten Commandments bill 'flagrantly' violates First Amendment: legal expert

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I have no problem with people and religion, as long as someone keeps it in the proper sphere. Since I’m not religious, I don’t care to see it given extra weight of approval by the state. I could just as well demand my ancestors native beliefs to be enshrined for all to see. Since it’s not practical to do so for all, it’s best to keep those beliefs at home.
Last edited by sikacz on Sat Jun 22, 2024 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: GOP gov’s Ten Commandments bill 'flagrantly' violates First Amendment: legal expert

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Perhaps other religious symbols should be allowed as well.
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0E18E2C9-0197-4E58-B5FC-6954285B5BDC.jpeg (239.33 KiB) Viewed 762 times
https://symbolsage.com/hindu-symbols-list/

That said, let’s just keep religion out of our common spaces and public institutions. Fairness leads to having the spaghetti monster get her place on the wall as well.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: GOP gov’s Ten Commandments bill 'flagrantly' violates First Amendment: legal expert

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Ahem… it was my understanding that the Old Testament containing the 10 commandments were pretty much supplanted by the New Testament to Christians. So why are these Christians, who continue to blame their old Jewish brethren (that compiled the Old Testaments) for killing their Jesus Christ, why do they continue to have such a hard-on for the 10 Commandments? Is there some BDSM kind of kink going on in just fetishizing these prohibitions, so they can repeatedly break them and hope not to get caught —like children sneaking candy after midnight?
Because their leaders seem to always be breaking their “commandments”. And they are always getting caught!!!
:wall:
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"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: GOP gov’s Ten Commandments bill 'flagrantly' violates First Amendment: legal expert

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Bisbee wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2024 3:13 pm Ahem… it was my understanding that the Old Testament containing the 10 commandments were pretty much supplanted by the New Testament to Christians. So why are these Christians, who continue to blame their old Jewish brethren (that compiled the Old Testaments) for killing their Jesus Christ, why do they continue to have such a hard-on for the 10 Commandments? Is there some BDSM kind of kink going on in just fetishizing these prohibitions, so they can repeatedly break them and hope not to get caught —like children sneaking candy after midnight?
Because their leaders seem to always be breaking their “commandments”. And they are always getting caught!!!
:wall:
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The "2nd Covenant" (Paul?) said everything that came before Jesus was just temporary and could be ignored....except when they wanna enforce the King James Commandments on OTHER people, or they're looking for reasons to write laws against LGBTQ+ and Black & Brown people.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: GOP gov’s Ten Commandments bill 'flagrantly' violates First Amendment: legal expert

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The Apostles, and other followers of Jesus, I'm sure thought of themselves as Jews, as Jesus himself would have. What's in and what's not is pure politics. The Book of Revelation, authored by John, now referred to as John of Patmos, was thought possibly to be the same John of Gospel fame. So in that horror show went. Even the names of Gospel authors are unknown. M,M,L, John, are just reference names so as to keep things neat and tidy.

People of faith are immune to large degree from all the inconsistencies. Few actually read the thing except for the study lessons they are given and quizzed on, so tell them anything. Probably, The Ten is intended to be a segway to even more divine wisdom. I think it will backfire. We don't teach kids about fast food in schools, private or public, but there are some things that are just in your hap-hap-happy face no matter where you go.

Junk food for thought.

Re: GOP gov’s Ten Commandments bill 'flagrantly' violates First Amendment: legal expert

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Before Gutenberg and his press, the Bible including the gospels were manually copied and miscopied by monks, sayings were changed. Translations by scholars differed which led to differing versions. The Bible was changed over the centuries.
https://historycollection.com/18-ways-t ... t-history/
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: GOP gov’s Ten Commandments bill 'flagrantly' violates First Amendment: legal expert

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highdesert wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2024 7:50 am Before Gutenberg and his press, the Bible including the gospels were manually copied and miscopied by monks, sayings were changed. Translations by scholars differed which led to differing versions. The Bible was changed over the centuries.
https://historycollection.com/18-ways-t ... t-history/
A lot was probably changed to fit the ideas of doctrine of the times and the whims of the leader in charge. How many different "Bibles" do we have in the Christian world and which one is the "Real" Bible?
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: GOP gov’s Ten Commandments bill 'flagrantly' violates First Amendment: legal expert

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TrueTexan wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2024 8:47 am
highdesert wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2024 7:50 am Before Gutenberg and his press, the Bible including the gospels were manually copied and miscopied by monks, sayings were changed. Translations by scholars differed which led to differing versions. The Bible was changed over the centuries.
https://historycollection.com/18-ways-t ... t-history/
A lot was probably changed to fit the ideas of doctrine of the times and the whims of the leader in charge. How many different "Bibles" do we have in the Christian world and which one is the "Real" Bible?
See message six.
To be vintage it must be older than me!
The next gun I buy will be the next to last gun I ever buy. PROMISE!
jim

Re: GOP gov’s Ten Commandments bill 'flagrantly' violates First Amendment: legal expert

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sig230 wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2024 9:10 am
TrueTexan wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2024 8:47 am
highdesert wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2024 7:50 am Before Gutenberg and his press, the Bible including the gospels were manually copied and miscopied by monks, sayings were changed. Translations by scholars differed which led to differing versions. The Bible was changed over the centuries.
https://historycollection.com/18-ways-t ... t-history/
A lot was probably changed to fit the ideas of doctrine of the times and the whims of the leader in charge. How many different "Bibles" do we have in the Christian world and which one is the "Real" Bible?
See message six.
I saw that and each one claims to be the only True Bible.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: GOP gov’s Ten Commandments bill 'flagrantly' violates First Amendment: legal expert

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Why does it matter if there’s a correct bible or not? They can all be incorrect, especially when not everyone believes god exists. None of them are appropriate in the spaces being discussed anymore than having any part of the Vedas displayed or any other. Non religious texts is perfectly acceptable, like “do good works and have a happy day”. Or perhaps this one:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Perhaps being reminded of the constitution would serve us better than a reference to a particular religion or belief.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: GOP gov’s Ten Commandments bill 'flagrantly' violates First Amendment: legal expert

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TrueTexan wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2024 11:16 am
sig230 wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2024 9:10 am
TrueTexan wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2024 8:47 am
highdesert wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2024 7:50 am Before Gutenberg and his press, the Bible including the gospels were manually copied and miscopied by monks, sayings were changed. Translations by scholars differed which led to differing versions. The Bible was changed over the centuries.
https://historycollection.com/18-ways-t ... t-history/
A lot was probably changed to fit the ideas of doctrine of the times and the whims of the leader in charge. How many different "Bibles" do we have in the Christian world and which one is the "Real" Bible?
See message six.
I saw that and each one claims to be the only True Bible.
Not really. There really are a whole host of 'Christians' that are not members of the Christian Cult of Ignorance. For example, the Ethiopian Orthodox church has two Canons, the Long Canon mention in message #6 but also a Short Canon that is very similar to the current Protestant Canon. There is also the Ecumenical movement where for example the Episcopal Church fully recognizes several other mainstream Protestant denomination and even allows priest of the different denomination to officiate and serve as Priests in Episcopal Churches.

The Episcopal Church, being part of the Anglican Communion does generally use the King James Version but there is no prohibition of using other formats as well or instead of. Such decisions are made at the parish level. The Protestant Canon (list of books to be included) is what determines content but format or translation is open to local choices. The Book of Common Prayer which predates the King James bible is standard and sets the order of service so that over a three year cycle all of the books in the Canon get read but even there there are two versions and the churches alternate between the two.

The National Cathedral in DC, an Episcopal Church, regularly brings in people from other faith, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, even Taoists to teach about their religion and even lead worship services. But then one of the Grotesques on the National Cathedral is Darth Vader.
To be vintage it must be older than me!
The next gun I buy will be the next to last gun I ever buy. PROMISE!
jim

Re: GOP gov’s Ten Commandments bill 'flagrantly' violates First Amendment: legal expert

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Rather pointless who guess stars at the “national cathedral”, the whole concept of a national church is against the principles of the constitution and separation of church and state. Interestingly we can see how this has been a part of the long process of the intrusion of religion in to our government structures. I bet few if any objected when Congress got involved and passed the charter in 1893. This should have been met by stern objections from the majority. Interesting also is that the cathedral is an episcopalian, does that make it our preferred religion….
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: GOP gov’s Ten Commandments bill 'flagrantly' violates First Amendment: legal expert

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sikacz wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2024 1:18 pm Rather pointless who guess stars at the “national cathedral”, the whole concept of a national church is against the principles of the constitution and separation of church and state. Interestingly we can see how this has been a part of the long process of the intrusion of religion in to our government structures. I bet few if any objected when Congress got involved and passed the charter in 1893. This should have been met by stern objections from the majority. Interesting also is that the cathedral is an episcopalian, does that make it our preferred religion….
The National in National Cathedral revers to location. It's located on one of the highest hills in the Nations Capitol.

see next post.
Last edited by sig230 on Mon Jun 24, 2024 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
To be vintage it must be older than me!
The next gun I buy will be the next to last gun I ever buy. PROMISE!
jim

Re: GOP gov’s Ten Commandments bill 'flagrantly' violates First Amendment: legal expert

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sikacz wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2024 1:18 pm Rather pointless who guess stars at the “national cathedral”, the whole concept of a national church is against the principles of the constitution and separation of church and state. Interestingly we can see how this has been a part of the long process of the intrusion of religion in to our government structures. I bet few if any objected when Congress got involved and passed the charter in 1893. This should have been met by stern objections from the majority. Interesting also is that the cathedral is an episcopalian, does that make it our preferred religion….
The National in National Cathedral revers to location. It's located on one of the highest hills in the Nations Capitol. And no, it does not make it a preferred religion but rather recognizes the reality the the US was an English Colony and that it is part of the Anglican Communion and thus is affiliated with the Church Of England and within the Apostolic tradition. Those are simply reality and history.

The Apostolic tradition is based again in reality, the creation of a long line of interconnected anointed individuals. The key again is simply recognizing a form of government of the organization. It makes no claims of being the right or only or even proper 'religion'.

The two organizations, church and state are separate. But reality says that some times custom intrudes. Both the Senate and the House of Representatives have Chaplains however they have no say or input into the process, procedures, models, methods or mechanisms of created laws or determining spending.
To be vintage it must be older than me!
The next gun I buy will be the next to last gun I ever buy. PROMISE!
jim

Re: GOP gov’s Ten Commandments bill 'flagrantly' violates First Amendment: legal expert

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As we discuss religions and how each has declared they are the one. I am reminded what I hear at the gun range as to what is the best handgun for self defense. I always believe, it is the one you have in your hand when you really need it.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: GOP gov’s Ten Commandments bill 'flagrantly' violates First Amendment: legal expert

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sikacz wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2024 1:18 pm Rather pointless who guess stars at the “national cathedral”, the whole concept of a national church is against the principles of the constitution and separation of church and state. Interestingly we can see how this has been a part of the long process of the intrusion of religion in to our government structures. I bet few if any objected when Congress got involved and passed the charter in 1893. This should have been met by stern objections from the majority. Interesting also is that the cathedral is an episcopalian, does that make it our preferred religion….
The Washington National Cathedral is private, not a government entity.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: GOP gov’s Ten Commandments bill 'flagrantly' violates First Amendment: legal expert

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sig230 wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2024 1:40 pm
sikacz wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2024 1:18 pm Rather pointless who guess stars at the “national cathedral”, the whole concept of a national church is against the principles of the constitution and separation of church and state. Interestingly we can see how this has been a part of the long process of the intrusion of religion in to our government structures. I bet few if any objected when Congress got involved and passed the charter in 1893. This should have been met by stern objections from the majority. Interesting also is that the cathedral is an episcopalian, does that make it our preferred religion….
The National in National Cathedral revers to location. It's located on one of the highest hills in the Nations Capitol. And no, it does not make it a preferred religion but rather recognizes the reality the the US was an English Colony and that it is part of the Anglican Communion and thus is affiliated with the Church Of England and within the Apostolic tradition. Those are simply reality and history.

The Apostolic tradition is based again in reality, the creation of a long line of interconnected anointed individuals. The key again is simply recognizing a form of government of the organization. It makes no claims of being the right or only or even proper 'religion'.

The two organizations, church and state are separate. But reality says that some times custom intrudes. Both the Senate and the House of Representatives have Chaplains however they have no say or input into the process, procedures, models, methods or mechanisms of created laws or determining spending.
Yes and last I looked the Episcopal Bishop of Washington is a woman. It's called the National Cathedral because it's in Washington, DC, not because we have a national or state church like some countries. The Church of England (Anglican), Church of Scotland (Presbyterian); Church of Denmark, Church of Iceland (Lutheran) are state churches and in some countries the Roman Catholic Church is recognized in constitutions as the national church.

The Episcopal Church in the US was patterned after the Scottish Episcopal Church, because the first American Episcopal bishop Samuel Seabury was ordained/consecrated a bishop by bishops of the Scottish Episcopal Church. He could only have been ordained/consecrated by Church of England bishops if he took the Oath of Allegiance to the British Crown which he rejected. The Scottish Episcopal Church didn't require the Oath. Both churches had apostolic succession.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: GOP gov’s Ten Commandments bill 'flagrantly' violates First Amendment: legal expert

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Why did it need a charter set by Congress in the 1890’s, that’s not during the founding. I’m simply saying it is not congruent with the constitution to have congress get involved in the building of a church. That’s pretty close to establishment of religion. Did congress charter every church in Washington DC? Are all churches in Washington DC then National since they are in the location of the capitol? Is the a “national” Buddhist temple with a charter from Congress? I think you can see my point, we have already favored a Christian religion over others. Customs of religion doesn’t belong in state functions when there is a separation of church and state. That’s simply illogical.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: GOP gov’s Ten Commandments bill 'flagrantly' violates First Amendment: legal expert

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The idea for a sacred home for all Americans in the nation’s capital is as old as the country itself. Pierre L’Enfant’s original design for the new capital city included a “great church for national purposes,” an idea that sat idle until a congressional charter authorized a cathedral dedicated to religion, education and charity, in 1893. Construction began in 1907, when President Theodore Roosevelt helped lay the foundation stone. Through world wars, the Great Depression and immense social change, construction ended exactly 83 years after it began, when President George H.W. Bush oversaw the laying of the final stone atop the towers, in 1990.
https://cathedral.org/discover/history/ ... in%201893.

A lot of entities in the US have Congressional charters:
Other national-level groups with such charters are the American Chemical Society, American Legion, American Red Cross, the Boy Scouts of America,[4] the Girl Scouts of the USA,[5] Little League Baseball Inc, the National Academy of Public Administration, The National Academy of Sciences, the National Ski Patrol, the National FFA Organization, the National Safety Council, National Park Foundation, the Disabled American Veterans, Veterans of Foreign Wars, National Trust for Historic Preservation, the United States Olympic Committee,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressi ... 20National

Though not the established church in the US, many of the rich and powerful over the centuries have been Episcopalians. More US presidents have been Episcopalians than any other denomination.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads ... iest,Bush.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: GOP gov’s Ten Commandments bill 'flagrantly' violates First Amendment: legal expert

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Civil liberties groups filed a lawsuit Monday to block Louisiana’s new law that requires the Ten Commandments to be displayed in every public school classroom, a measure they contend is unconstitutional. Plaintiffs in the suit include parents of Louisiana public school children with various religious backgrounds, who are represented by attorneys with the American Civil Liberties Union Foundation, Americans United for Separation of Church and State, the Freedom From Religion Foundation and the New York City law firm Simpson, Thacher & Bartlett. “This display sends a message to my children and other students that people of some religious dominations are superior to others,” said the Rev. Jeff Simms, a Presbyterian pastor who is a plaintiff in the suit and father of three children in Louisiana public schools. “This is religious favoritism.”

Under the legislation signed into law by Republican Gov. Jeff Landry last week, all public K-12 classrooms and state-funded universities will be required to display a poster-sized version of the Ten Commandments in “large, easily readable font” next year. Opponents argue that the law is a violation of separation of church and state and that the display will isolate students, especially those who are not Christian. Proponents say the measure is not solely religious, but that it has historical significance. In the language of the law, the Ten Commandments are “foundational documents of our state and national government.”

Plaintiff Joshua Herlands has two young children in New Orleans public schools who, like their father, are Jewish. There are multiple versions of the Ten Commandments, and Herlands said the specific version mandated for classroom walls does not align with the version from his faith. He worries the display will send a troubling message to his kids and others that “they may be lesser in the eyes of the government.” “Politicians have absolutely no business forcing their religious beliefs on my kids or any kids, or attempting to indoctrinate them with what they think is the right version of a particular piece of religious text,” Herlands said.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/law ... -111380162

If this is struck down by a US district judge, then it would be appealed to the US 5th Circuit and who knows what would happen.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: GOP gov’s Ten Commandments bill 'flagrantly' violates First Amendment: legal expert

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highdesert wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2024 7:20 am
The idea for a sacred home for all Americans in the nation’s capital is as old as the country itself. Pierre L’Enfant’s original design for the new capital city included a “great church for national purposes,” an idea that sat idle until a congressional charter authorized a cathedral dedicated to religion, education and charity, in 1893. Construction began in 1907, when President Theodore Roosevelt helped lay the foundation stone. Through world wars, the Great Depression and immense social change, construction ended exactly 83 years after it began, when President George H.W. Bush oversaw the laying of the final stone atop the towers, in 1990.
https://cathedral.org/discover/history/ ... in%201893.

A lot of entities in the US have Congressional charters:
Other national-level groups with such charters are the American Chemical Society, American Legion, American Red Cross, the Boy Scouts of America,[4] the Girl Scouts of the USA,[5] Little League Baseball Inc, the National Academy of Public Administration, The National Academy of Sciences, the National Ski Patrol, the National FFA Organization, the National Safety Council, National Park Foundation, the Disabled American Veterans, Veterans of Foreign Wars, National Trust for Historic Preservation, the United States Olympic Committee,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressi ... 20National

Though not the established church in the US, many of the rich and powerful over the centuries have been Episcopalians. More US presidents have been Episcopalians than any other denomination.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads ... iest,Bush.
And many of those with these charters push religion and favor Christianity over other beliefs. The inclusion of under god into the pledge is another example of this encroachment.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

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