Re: Shooter on the loose in Lewiston, Maine

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While not surprising, we are discovering that many of the people we hire to put their ass on the line are really not totally vested or interested in putting their ass on the line when it comes to putting their ass on the line ala Uvalde, Florida, Maine et al.
"Being Republican is more than a difference of opinion - it's a character flaw." "COVID can fix STUPID!"
The greatest, most aggrieved mistake EVER made in USA was electing DJT as POTUS.

Re: Shooter on the loose in Lewiston, Maine

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When police officers stand in court and argue to the judge & jury that their paycheck doesn’t legally obligate them to do anything to ensure public safety, it’s really time for them to find another job.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: Shooter on the loose in Lewiston, Maine

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Wino wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 8:54 pm While not surprising, we are discovering that many of the people we hire to put their ass on the line are really not totally vested or interested in putting their ass on the line when it comes to putting their ass on the line ala Uvalde, Florida, Maine et al.
True.
Bisbee wrote: When police officers stand in court and argue to the judge & jury that their paycheck doesn’t legally obligate them to do anything to ensure public safety, it’s really time for them to find another job.
Agree. People that failed in this instance should all be looked at with scrutiny and fired.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Shooter on the loose in Lewiston, Maine

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Wino wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 8:54 pm While not surprising, we are discovering that many of the people we hire to put their ass on the line are really not totally vested or interested in putting their ass on the line when it comes to putting their ass on the line ala Uvalde, Florida, Maine et al.
And why would they when they've got precedent like Warren v. District of Columbia covering their asses? I learned the lesson long ago that, despite the cliché, the policeman is not your friend.
The following statement is true: the previous statement was a lie.

Re: Shooter on the loose in Lewiston, Maine

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Every cop wants to go home at the end of their shift. I don't blame the beat cops, it was the supervisors and higher ranking officers in the Lewiston PD that didn't pursued the Card case. ME already has a law for dealing with residents who may be a threat to themselves or others. Even though Card was given a psychiatric evaluation that result apparently wasn't passed on to law enforcement and they didn't start a judicial process.
A. The restricted person, after notice under paragraph B:

(1) Is prohibited from possessing, controlling, acquiring or attempting to possess, control or acquire a dangerous weapon pending the outcome of a judicial hearing;

(2) Shall immediately and temporarily surrender any weapons possessed, controlled or acquired by the restricted person to a law enforcement officer who has authority in the jurisdiction in which the weapons are located pending the outcome of a judicial hearing; and

(3) Has a right to a judicial hearing within 14 days of notice under paragraph B; and
https://legislature.maine.gov/statutes/ ... 862-A.html

I expect we'll hear a lot more about this from the civil trials.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Shooter on the loose in Lewiston, Maine

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BKinzey wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2023 12:53 pm
wings wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 7:31 pm ....
As a member of the armed forces, Card had legal access to arms...
Generally true but a point in the case of Card was he had been restricted from the armory or being issued weapons. Which was another reason they should have made more of an effort to find the guy.
Card also enjoyed legal exposure to that state's "yellow flag laws" which, as we have seen, were not applied properly. Their bad. Lawsuits galore will descend upon them, as they should.

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Shooter on the loose in Lewiston, Maine

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A tissue sample from the brain of a gunman who killed 18 people and injured 13 others in Maine has been sent to a lab in Massachusetts to be examined for signs of injury or trauma related to his service in the Army Reserves, officials said Monday. The state’s chief medical examiner wants to know if a brain injury stemming from 40-year-old Robert Card’s military service could have contributed to the unusual behavior he exhibited leading up to the Oct. 25 shootings at a bowling alley and at a bar in Lewiston. A spokesperson for the medical examiner’s office characterized the extra step as a matter of thoroughness “due to the combined history of military experience and actions.”

“In an event such as this, people are left with more questions than answers. It is our belief that if we can conduct testing (in-house or outsourced) that may shed light on some of those answers, we have a responsibility to do that,” Lindsey Chasteen, office administrator, wrote in an email. The gunman’s body was found two days after the shootings in a nearby town. The medical examiner already concluded that Card died by suicide. The tissue samples, first reported by The New York Times, were sent to a laboratory at Boston University that specializes in problems associated with brain trauma, including chronic traumatic encephalopathy, or CTE, which has plagued many professional football players. A spokesperson said the CTE Center cannot comment without the family’s permission. Two family members didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment from The Associated Press.

The concerns surround Card’s exposure to repeated blasts while training U.S. Military Academy cadets about guns, anti-tank weapon and grenades at West Point, New York. Family members reported that Card had sunk into paranoid and delusional behavior that preceded him being hospitalized for two weeks last summer during training with fellow reservists at West Point. Among other things, Card thought others were accusing him of being a pedophile. His fellow soldiers were concerned enough that his access to weapons was restricted when he left the hospital. At least one of the reservists specifically expressed concerns of a mass shooting.

New York and Maine both have laws that can lead to the removal of weapons for someone who’s experiencing a mental health crisis, but those laws were not invoked to take his guns. Law enforcement officials in Maine were warned about concerns from Card’s fellow reservists. But Card didn’t answer the door at his Bowdoin home when deputies attempted to check on his well-being several weeks before the shootings.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ma ... rcna129117
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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Police who declined to confront an Army reservist in the weeks before he killed 18 people in Maine’s deadliest mass shooting feared that doing so would “throw a stick of dynamite on a pool of gas,” according to video released Friday by law enforcement. The video, which was released to the Portland Press Herald and then sent to The Associated Press, documents a Sept. 16 call between Sagadahoc County Sheriff’s Sgt. Aaron Skolfield and Army Reserve Capt. Jeremy Reamer. Skolfield was following up with Reamer about the potential threat posed by Robert Card, 40, who carried out the Oct. 25 attacks at a bowling alley and a restaurant. He was found dead two days later of a self-inflicted gunshot wound. Military officials alerted police in September that Card had been hospitalized in July after exhibiting erratic behavior while training, that he still had access to weapons and that he had threatened to “shoot up” an Army reserve center in Saco, a city in southern Maine. The sheriff’s department responded by briefly staking out the Saco facility and going to Card’s home in Bowdoin for what Reamer described as a “welfare check.”

“The only thing I would ask is if you could just document it,” Reamer said. “Just say, ’He was there, he was uncooperative. But we confirmed that he was alive and breathing.’ And then we can go from there. That’s, from my end here, all we’re really looking for.” Skolfield mentioned Maine’s yellow flag law, which can be used to remove guns from potentially dangerous people, after Reamer said Card had refused medical treatment after his hospitalization. “So that, obviously, is a hurdle we have to deal with. But at the same time, we don’t want to throw a stick of dynamite on a pool of gas, either — make things worse,” he said. Reamer expressed similar concerns. “I’m a cop myself,” he said. “Obviously, I don’t want you guys to get hurt or do anything that would put you guys in a compromising position.” Auburn City Councilor Leroy Walker Sr., whose son Joseph Walker was killed in the shootings, expressed frustration with police after seeing the video. Joseph Walker was the manager of Schemengees Bar & Grill, where part of the attack took place. “I would like to know what we train these people to do. Is it just to deliver mail? Or stop innocent people that may be driving 11 miles (per hour) over the speed limit?” Walker said in a text message, noting that watching the video made him “sick.”

In the video, Skolfield referred to the Cards as “a big family in this area,” and said he didn’t want to publicize that police were visiting the home. He told Reamer he would reach out to Card’s brother, Ryan, to ensure family members had taken Card’s guns, and a second video shows an officer at the father’s home. After Card’s father said he hadn’t spoken with Ryan in several days, the officer said he would try again later. “I just wanted to make sure Robert doesn’t do anything foolish at all,” he said. A report released last week by Sagadahoc Sheriff Joel Merry made clear that local law enforcement knew months before the attack that Card’s mental health was deteriorating. Police were aware of reports that he was paranoid, hearing voices, experiencing psychotic episodes and possibly dealing with schizophrenia. Merry and Lewiston city officials declined to comment on the release of the videos. But Stephanie Sherman, an attorney who has represented several families of survivors of the 2022 mass shooting at an elementary school in Uvalde, Texas, said the videos show officers took a disturbingly casual approach to the threat Card posed. Police had more than enough information to take to a local judge, she said.

“There was a history of problems within the Army, there was a history of institutionalization. The police knew that this person was having hallucinations,” Sherman said. “So there was a whole batch of problems that they quickly could have gotten an order to confiscate the guns, and even possibly put the person in custody. Not criminal custody, but some kind of psychiatric hold.” Sherman said, however, that police tend to rely on immunity, which historically has shielded them from liability when they avoid taking an action such as placing a person in custody. A former New York Police Department detective sergeant who reviewed the videos for the AP said the events preceding the shooting illustrate the difficulty in applying Maine’s yellow flag law. Lax laws about removing weapons from dangerous people is a problem in numerous states, said Felipe Rodriguez, an adjunct professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York City. “The laws are just too convoluted and they are working against each other. That’s the biggest problem we have,” Rodriguez said.
In addition to the inspector general’s investigation, Gov. Janet Mills appointed an an independent commission led by a former state chief justice to review all aspects of the tragedy. The actions of authorities ahead of and during mass shootings have come under increasing scrutiny. Last year, the Air Force was ordered to pay more than $230 million in damages to survivors and victims’ families for failing to flag a conviction that might have kept the gunman in a 2017 church shooting in Texas from legally buying the weapon he used in the attack. After a gunman fatally shot 19 children and two teachers at the school in Uvalde last year, state lawmakers issued a scathing report faulting law enforcement at every level with failing “to prioritize saving innocent lives over their own safety.” Several officers lost their jobs over the halting and haphazard response, and a state prosecutor is still considering whether to bring criminal charges.
https://apnews.com/article/lewiston-mai ... 5f779be617
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Shooter on the loose in Lewiston, Maine

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LEWISTON, Maine (AP) — Sean Hodgson watched and worried as his best friend of nearly two decades unraveled. His former roommate and fellow U.S. Army reservist’s anger and paranoia were mounting, he had access to guns, and he refused to get help. So Hodgson did the hardest thing of his life: He sent a text about Robert Card to their Army supervisor.

“I believe he’s going to snap and do a mass shooting,” he wrote on Sept. 15.

Six weeks later, Card fatally shot 18 people at a bowling alley and a bar in Lewiston before killing himself. His body was found in a trailer after a two-day search and regionwide lockdown.

“I wasn’t in his head. I don’t know exactly what went on,” Hodgson told The Associated Press last week in an exclusive interview, his first since the Oct. 25 shootings. “But I do know I was right.”
https://apnews.com/article/lewiston-mai ... dium=share

Yet another piece of support for treating the person rather than banning the gun.

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Shooter on the loose in Lewiston, Maine

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Here's an update on the Red Flag Law argument with respect to the State of Maine:
PORTLAND, Maine (AP) — Law enforcement should have seized a man’s guns and put him in protective custody weeks before he committed Maine’s deadliest mass shooting, a report found Friday.

An independent commission has been reviewing the events that led up to Army reservist Robert Card killing 18 people at a bowling alley and a bar in Lewiston on Oct. 25, as well as the subsequent response.

The commission criticized Sgt. Aaron Skolfield, who responded to a report five weeks before the shooting that Card was suffering from some sort of mental health crisis after he’d previously assaulted a friend and threatened to shoot up the Saco Armory.

The commission found Skolfield, of the Sagadahoc County Sheriff’s Office, should have realized he had probable cause to start a so-called “yellow flag” process, which allows a judge to temporarily remove somebody’s guns during a psychiatric health crisis.
https://apnews.com/article/maine-mass-s ... eb5e7a86b8

It's a fairly in-depth AP article exposing the weakness in the lack of proper application of the law.

It is really tough successfully to argue against Red Flag Laws in this particular case. Thus, a national Red Flag Law is tough to argue against in principle. From the practical view point, such laws must be written clearly in a way the person in question can get back the RKBA after undergoing classes, treatment, testing, letting time pass to heal, and so on.

Bring it.

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Shooter on the loose in Lewiston, Maine

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CDFingers wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2024 10:10 am Here's an update on the Red Flag Law argument with respect to the State of Maine:
PORTLAND, Maine (AP) — Law enforcement should have seized a man’s guns and put him in protective custody weeks before he committed Maine’s deadliest mass shooting, a report found Friday.

An independent commission has been reviewing the events that led up to Army reservist Robert Card killing 18 people at a bowling alley and a bar in Lewiston on Oct. 25, as well as the subsequent response.

The commission criticized Sgt. Aaron Skolfield, who responded to a report five weeks before the shooting that Card was suffering from some sort of mental health crisis after he’d previously assaulted a friend and threatened to shoot up the Saco Armory.

The commission found Skolfield, of the Sagadahoc County Sheriff’s Office, should have realized he had probable cause to start a so-called “yellow flag” process, which allows a judge to temporarily remove somebody’s guns during a psychiatric health crisis.
https://apnews.com/article/maine-mass-s ... eb5e7a86b8

It's a fairly in-depth AP article exposing the weakness in the lack of proper application of the law.

It is really tough successfully to argue against Red Flag Laws in this particular case. Thus, a national Red Flag Law is tough to argue against in principle. From the practical view point, such laws must be written clearly in a way the person in question can get back the RKBA after undergoing classes, treatment, testing, letting time pass to heal, and so on.

Bring it.

CDFingers
As with so many issues the problem is in implementation. We have neglected doing the basics and creating the needed infrastructure to successfully implement almost all of the root cause and basic solutions. We don't adequately train the folk, fund the things like review boards, teach basic civil behavior or fund needed medical and mental health resources.

Passing laws and making rules is the easy part but worthless unless we also put in the effort and funding required to implement.

And ALL of the evidence says we will not do the work or fund the investment or teach that rights also carry responsibilities.
To be vintage it must be older than me!
The next gun I buy will be the next to last gun I ever buy. PROMISE!
jim

Re: Shooter on the loose in Lewiston, Maine

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This is a preliminary report by the Commission, the final report will be out this summer. Maine had the laws but civil law enforcement didn't enforce them against Robert Card, which is the same conclusion of some experts. Glad they didn't dump on Maine's gun laws saying they should be tighten up, there were laws but law enforcement ignored them. I don't see a national red flag law passing Congress unless Biden gets reelected with strong majorities in both houses of Congress, in which case he'd also pass an AWB. That's Everytown's wet dream but it won't happen.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Shooter on the loose in Lewiston, Maine

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AUGUSTA, Maine (AP) — The Maine Legislature approved sweeping gun safety legislation including background checks on private gun sales, waiting periods for gun purchases and criminalizing gun sales to prohibited people before adjourning Thursday morning, nearly six months after the deadliest shooting in state history.

--snrps--

However, there was no action on a proposal to institute a “red flag” law. The bill sponsored by House Speaker Rachel Talbot Ross would have allowed family members to petition a judge to remove guns from someone who is in a psychiatric crisis. The state’s current “yellow flag” law differs by putting police in the lead of the process, which critics say is too complicated.

https://apnews.com/article/maine-legisl ... 2556e1abd3

I have a problem with waiting periods after the first gun is purchased. However, knowing one has a gun already would require some kind of registration. So I'll have to accept the waiting period for all purchases.

CDF
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Shooter on the loose in Lewiston, Maine

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I agree, waiting periods after the first purchase are meaningless. The tragedy of Robert Card's shooting spree was down to ME law enforcement and the ME National Guard, but there was no "off with their heads" punishment inflicted on either law enforcement or the Guard. As usual legal gun owners are penalized.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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I'm ok with waiting until the NICS check comes through. Then of course they should "Fix NICS" like they said they would and they should also open NICS up for private sales.

The 10 day waiting period is bullshit. I'm currently being bit by it. I ordered a gun in February, it was suppose to take 7 - 10 days to get here. That turned into several weeks. I had a trip planned for the later part of April. Although my gun was supposed to arrive in time the 10 day wait extended beyond my leaving date. I could have started the background check but it is only good for 30 days. I'm going to be gone longer than that, so I have to wait until I get back, then start the 10 day waiting period. I will be camping at times on this trip . This gun would have been a nice gun to have while camping, but no. I am camping and I am armed, just not with the gun I wanted to take with me.

Re: Shooter on the loose in Lewiston, Maine

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My sympathies BK. It's a stupid law that Democrats in the Legislature refuse to repeal. If it was a first ever gun purchase then it might be understandable, but CA DOJ knows if a gun buyer has other firearms and there shouldn't be any waiting period for subsequent purchases. It's like the mag size restriction, it's meaningless. Democrats just want to harass gun owners into getting rid of their firearms. Sacto Democrats don't listen to gun owners, they've been brainwashed by the Bloomie groups.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Shooter on the loose in Lewiston, Maine

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihAVzYmReuc&t=7s
Has Maine now officially lost their mind by passing the Nation's most restrictive Red Flag laws? Washington Gun Law President William Kirk discusses just that as Maine now appears to be poised to abandon their Yellow Flag laws and replace them with the nation's most oppressive and unconstitutional Red Flag laws. This now takes a piece of legislation which could have served as a model for the rest of the country, and turns it into a law where people can now be jailed for suffering mental health issues or worse yet, merely on the allegation that they suffer such issues. So Learn more today and arm yourself with education.
Bill Kirk of Washington Gun Law. Straight shooter.

VooDoo
Tyrants disarm the people they intend to oppress.

I am sworn to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Re: Shooter on the loose in Lewiston, Maine

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This Maine law is very concerned with getting the person evaluated from a mental health perspective. Apparently, the existing Yellow Flag law in Maine could have worked, had someone stepped up and dropped a dime on the guy. But that did not happen. Hence, the lege decided to make this new set of laws where it's easier for an LEO to drag the person in for an eval. The speaker in the video is from Washington State, across the nation from Maine, and he's a Republican. His hair is a bit on fire for me. What he says, when compared to the quotes he posts, appear to be two different things. There are a lot of "and's" in the legislation, where more than one thing have to take place to get the person evaluated. In reading Those quotes, I get the feeling they are more restrictive than what he says about them. While these laws are more restrictive than the ones I have posted about, let's see what others think about his presentation compared to the proposed legislation, which has not been signed by the Governor. Others?

CDF
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Shooter on the loose in Lewiston, Maine

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7k4a62G-4A

Independent Media Dude Greg Bishop is another one of these people who shoot straight from the hip with facts and video. They may have their hair on fire but, I think, that's because we have reached a point on anti 2A legislation where...well, yeah. It's time to get (way past time to get) fired up about what's going on in the US in terms of anti 2A legislation and infringement. Both of these guys are my go to sources for what's going on in my State (Illinois) and in Bill Kirk's case, nation wide.

VooDoo
Tyrants disarm the people they intend to oppress.

I am sworn to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

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