I saw on tv this afternoon that the IDF is working to occupy all of the Gaza Strip. Ordering the evacuation of many areas in southern Gaza. As many Palestinians have said there is no place to go. IDF said they will occupy all of Gaza.

Here’s more info https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/liv ... rcna127861

Well it seems that BiBi’s map he displayed at the Un showing that Gaza was part of Greater Israel was the true goal.

Well, in their usual disregard for Palestinian lives, much of Hamas moved South with the evacuees, using them once again as a human shield.

YankeeTarheel wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 5:30 pm Well, in their usual disregard for Palestinian lives, much of Hamas moved South with the evacuees, using them once again as a human shield.

They are truly vile.

Another lovely war given to us by religion.

featureless wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 6:18 pm

YankeeTarheel wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 5:30 pm Well, in their usual disregard for Palestinian lives, much of Hamas moved South with the evacuees, using them once again as a human shield.

They are truly vile.

No more vile than BiBi standing up at the UN showing a map of what he called Greater Israel and no West Bank or Gaza strip on the map. He was just waving the red cape before the bull.

YankeeTarheel wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 5:30 pm Well, in their usual disregard for Palestinian lives, much of Hamas moved South with the evacuees, using them once again as a human shield.

Yes, hospitals, schools and mosques are used by Hamas and other militant groups to house their warriors and weapons, even the UN sites in Gaza. Using civilians as human shields is a war crime if you're a nation-state, but somehow it gets excused if you're an Islamic political and military group.

Condemning Hamas doesn't mean hating Palestinians or their right to a homeland. We can hate Netanyahu and his government without hating Israelis and all Jews. It's like foreigners hating all Americans because they hated Trump, he doesn't represent all Americans. Netanyahu won the last election because Israelis are divided just like the US is divided between Biden and Trump.

The hatred has spread to university and college campuses in the US. On Tuesday the presidents of Harvard University, the University of Pennsylvania and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology appeared before a the US House Education and Workforce Committee and in front of TV cameras and Republican grilling they stumbled badly.
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/0 ... lawmakers.

David Frum has a good Atlantic article, "There Is No Right to Bully and Harass."
https://web.archive.org/web/20231207151 ... ts/676249/

I believe Israel should be treated like apartheid South Africa was.

sig230 wrote:I believe Israel should be treated like apartheid South Africa was.

And what kind of treatment is that? Have you ever been to Israel? Have you ever met arab and muslim citizens of Israel who have same rights as Jews and even represented in Knesset aka the Parliament of Israel? Didn’t “palestinians” got a full control of Gaza and the West Bank as part of “territories for peace” deal? All jews asked for is to live in peace since… you guessed it 1948.

Rafinad wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 11:32 am

sig230 wrote:I believe Israel should be treated like apartheid South Africa was.

And what kind of treatment is that? Have you ever been to Israel? Have you ever met arab and muslim citizens of Israel who have same rights as Jews and even represented in Knesset aka the Parliament of Israel? Didn’t “palestinians” got a full control of Gaza and the West Bank as part of “territories for peace” deal? All jews asked for is to live in peace since… you guessed it 1948.

Nope, never been to Israel. And the issue is the promotion of Jewish settlements in Gaza and the West Bank. Even if it's just the Wink-Wink, Nudge-Nudge form of Imperialism.

So no the Palestinians have not gotten full control of Gaza or the West Bank or recognition as a Nation.

Sorry but the reality is that SOME Jews ask for peace while quite a few ask for a piece of land.

Until the policy of Israel the nation changes to stop the encroachment beyond the borders of Israel then the treatment from the civilized world should be to sanction the Nation of Israel. It's not an issue with Jews but with the behavior of the Nation State.

I wonder, what apartheid state would let its “oppressed, second class minority” citizens and residents from the “occupied” territories get free and top world class healthcare in its hospitals?

TrueTexan wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 9:26 am

featureless wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 6:18 pm

YankeeTarheel wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 5:30 pm Well, in their usual disregard for Palestinian lives, much of Hamas moved South with the evacuees, using them once again as a human shield.

They are truly vile.

No more vile than BiBi standing up at the UN showing a map of what he called Greater Israel and no West Bank or Gaza strip on the map. He was just waving the red cape before the bull.

Bibi needs to go, yes. But Hamas needs to be destroyed.

Hamas literally raped women to near death (like broken pelvises), then shot them in the genitals and/or breasts. Those are the ones that weren't dismembered or burned. We can agree the state of Israel needs to be checked on some issues (kinda like the US), but Hamas has earned its destruction.

Link not for the squeamish
https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-776654

And it's not just an Israeli newspaper saying it,

The BBC has seen and heard evidence of rape, sexual violence and mutilation of women during the 7 October Hamas attacks.

WARNING: CONTAINS EXTREMELY GRAPHIC DESCRIPTIONS OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE AND RAPE

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67629181

The reason that the Israeli death toll went down is because some of the bodies Israel has in refrigerated containers have been identified as Hamas fighters. The number of Israelis killed went from 1400 down to 1200 and it might even be lower now. DNA matching to missing persons takes time. Hamas videoed a lot of what they did in Israel on October 7th.

Can I remind you, folks, about another “apartheid” country formerly known as Rhodesia. Losing more human lives to starving by its own government as compared to its glorious years of “apartheid”.

sig230 wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 11:12 am I believe Israel should be treated like apartheid South Africa was.

Then so should all the Arab nations. 972,000 Jews were expelled from their ancestral homelands across North Africa and the Middle East following the creation of Israel. Where's the global movement to restore THEM and their descendants to THEIR property and homes? There isn't one.

And in those nations, non-Muslims and Muslims who follow the "wrong" version of Islam are persecuted and made 2nd class citizens, only they treat THEIR minorities far worse than Israel treats Israeli Muslims and Christians.

As of July 2020, blasphemy can be punished by death in Afghanistan, Brunei, Iran, Mauritania, Nigeria (some northern states), Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Somalia (al-Shabaab-controlled areas)

--"End Blasphemy Laws". Humanists International. 2020. Retrieved 15 July 2020

Even under the sickening ultra-right-wing government of What-a-Yahoo you can't go to prison and certainly cannot be executed for blasphemy.

But the goal posts get moved 'way, 'WAY back when it comes to Israel. Anti-Semitism is rising in America and the world. All the "woke" universities banning speech that hurts anyone's feelings NOW make a huge exception for people attacking and terrifying Jewish students. They can chant "From the River To the Sea", a total call for Ethnic Cleansing, but THAT is "free speech".

I was raised Atheist, but "converted" and am now a "Devout Agnostic", in my wife's description, I am ethnically and culturally Jewish, and was in too many fights and wore too many bruises for it as a kid. Trump made me a gun-owner by empowering all those bastards. I've known for at least a half-century that this time was coming.

Yawn.

The fact that other nations have been uncivilized (and I certainly include the US) is irrelevant; it's the "Johnny did it too" kindergarten playground excuse. But nation states are expected to rise above the kindergarten playground excuse stage.

That Hamas is a terrorist force that needs to be destroyed is a given. That Israel is a bandit nation that needs to move towards civilized behavior is a given. Hamas is not Palestine, it is a terrorist criminal group and should be targeted. The Palestinians in the Gaza and West Bank should be protected not attacked; sheltered not driven off their land.

Lots and lots of nations, including the US need to grow up!

sig230 wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:20 pm Yawn.

The fact that other nations have been uncivilized (and I certainly include the US) is irrelevant; it's the "Johnny did it too" kindergarten playground excuse. But nation states are expected to rise above the kindergarten playground excuse stage.

That Hamas is a terrorist force that needs to be destroyed is a given. That Israel is a bandit nation that needs to move towards civilized behavior is a given. Hamas is not Palestine, it is a terrorist criminal group and should be targeted. The Palestinians in the Gaza and West Bank should be protected not attacked; sheltered not driven off their land.

Lots and lots of nations, including the US need to grow up!

No, it's applying a different standard to Israel by the UN and the world. Why isn't Saudi Arabia, a "bandit nation"? Iran? Iraq? Syria? I guess you just don't give a fuck that Hamas' sworn goal, and that of the rest of the Muslim Brotherhood terrorists, is to kill EVERY SINGLE JEW in Israel, and rile up the rest of the world against Jews.
So you can yawn your ass off because they aren't coming for YOU!

Need to look at history where we saw the Rape of Nanjing (Nanking) by the Japanese Army in 1937.
Nanjing Massacre ; Mass murder, wartime rape, looting, arson · 200,000 (consensus), estimates range from 40,000 to over 300,000 · 20,000 to 80,000 women raped.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre

We keep talking about Gaza and the Hamas. But what about the West Bank where the Israeli Army supports the so called Israeli Settlers are driving the Palestinians off of their land they have lived on for generations before there was a modern Israel. The Israeli Settlers with support of the army has killed many of the Palestinians and destroyed their homes. This has been going on for decades also how many Palestinians/Arabs living in East Jerusalem have been evicted from their long time homes so a Jewish person could move in.

There are crimes on both sides of this conflict and most of yhe “news” is only coming from one side.

YankeeTarheel wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:25 pm

sig230 wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:20 pm Yawn.

The fact that other nations have been uncivilized (and I certainly include the US) is irrelevant; it's the "Johnny did it too" kindergarten playground excuse. But nation states are expected to rise above the kindergarten playground excuse stage.

That Hamas is a terrorist force that needs to be destroyed is a given. That Israel is a bandit nation that needs to move towards civilized behavior is a given. Hamas is not Palestine, it is a terrorist criminal group and should be targeted. The Palestinians in the Gaza and West Bank should be protected not attacked; sheltered not driven off their land.

Lots and lots of nations, including the US need to grow up!

No, it's applying a different standard to Israel by the UN and the world. Why isn't Saudi Arabia, a "bandit nation"? Iran? Iraq? Syria? I guess you just don't give a fuck that Hamas' sworn goal, and that of the rest of the Muslim Brotherhood terrorists, is to kill EVERY SINGLE JEW in Israel, and rile up the rest of the world against Jews.
So you can yawn your ass off because they aren't coming for YOU!

No, I agree that the Saudis and Iraq and Syria should be bandit nations. I have some hope for Iran. And I support Israel as a Nation but not it's current behavior.

Yes different standards are being applied by the US and UN and I admit and have attempted in my very limited way to oppose those things.

But the fact that there are lots of bad guys does not mean we should not speak out simply because Johnny did it too.

I didn’t intend to post on this thread, but there is a huge difference between Israel and Palestine. Israel is a country, Palestine is in effect occupied territory.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... -zelenskiy
The above article is worth reading if you are interested in a more realistic frame.

Good article sika.

I can't see the Palestinians and not think of Native Americans.

apples/oranges

War is not a humanitarian pursuit. Jewish people are in a battle not just for their lives, but their existence.

This should make even the non hunters here angry with me. So be it.

https://samharris.org/episode/SE5ADFAEFDD

cooper wrote:I can't see the Palestinians and not think of Native Americans.

There is no such nation called Palestine or ethnicity called Palestinian. This is a made up term dedicated to one and only purpose - destruction the state of Israel.
There used to be a territory called Mandatory Palestine under the rule of British Empire and it’s citizens were Jews, Arabs ( muslim and christian), Christian, Druze, etc. Jew could be a Palestinian too, and Arab, and even a British army corporal born in Manchester.

Sounds familiar. The British also divided the indigenous population of Rwanda into artificial groups of “Hutu” and “Tutsi” based on height and other random physical characteristics. We all know what happened there decades later…

To seperate the Palestinians from the Jews and consider this conflict anything more than a civil war is to play into the lies of Zionists who always seek to perpetuate a narrative that makes anyone who stands up to them appear in the wrong; as if Jews around the world are constantly facing an existential threat. Listen to enough actual Jews and you see this is a false story. Historically it can be argued the native populations we now call Palestinians were once desert dwelling Jews who later converted to Islam. Christianity, Judaism, Islam are all religions of the Middle East trace their origins back to one root. No matter how much of a threat the Israelis currently face, it is simply a lie that Jews are facing an existential threat which justify the mass killings of women, children, civilian casualties. The United States cannot support this and can be a strong voice for sanity against the the lies of Zionists and extremism of Hamas.

Rafinad wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:32 am

cooper wrote:I can't see the Palestinians and not think of Native Americans.

There is no such nation called Palestine or ethnicity called Palestinian. This is a made up term dedicated to one and only purpose - destruction the state of Israel.
There used to be a territory called Mandatory Palestine under the rule of British Empire and it’s citizens were Jews, Arabs ( muslim and christian), Christian, Druze, etc. Jew could be a Palestinian too, and Arab, and even a British army corporal born in Manchester.

Cold, my friend, very cold.

Cordon them off into territories, displace them from their homes, and now don’t even let them claim a collective identity? Dehumanizing and linguistically erasing a group of people are the first steps to terrible things. Everyone here knows where that can lead. Pretty much all our labels of one another are arbitrary, but I know oppression when I see it.

I’ve been purposely staying out of this because passions are very high on this issue. For understandable reasons. And many folks have some rage on this issue that needs venting. I get that. But I’m watching this supposedly liberal organization give too much unquestioned support to a nation state that is using its military to inflict collective punishment on a population. And now you would argue that we can’t even name that population?