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The importance of casting, and the benefits of Lee 6-cavity moulds

1 by CowboyT
You all know that I'm an avid reloader. I do so for everything that I shoot except for .22LR.

Turns out I can also cast for everything that I shoot (again, except for .22LR). I have moulds for every caliber. This has turned out to be a great boon, especially now.

Has anyone tried to buy bullets (I mean the projectiles, not complete rounds), over the last, say, year and a half? If so, have you noticed how a lot of them are now made out of various isotopes of Unobtainium? This goes for rifle bullets as well as handgun bullets, but handgun bullets appear to be even more scarce. When you can find them, the price is up there.

This is why, as reloaders, I believe it's important for us to also be active casters. I know, some indoor ranges don't allow cast bullets. We'll get to that in a moment.

Ever since I started casting, it's saved me a bunch per round. This becomes even more noticeable as you go bigger-bore, but it's still true at the .38 Special level. I cast a 105gr bullet for this cartridge in a nice, soft-shootin' load that hits 850 ft/sec. "Mrs. B.H.C." loves this load. That was the original motivation, save money per round.

However, during shortages, casting also ensures bullet availability. Consider how dearly priced primers have gotten. Same for powder. You can still buy it, but it's gonna cost ya. Casting makes it so that not only do you equalize out some of that panic-price cost, but it also makes sure that YOU ACTUALLY HAVE BULLETS.

To do this, I use Lee's Pro 4-20 casting pot, because it's affordable and works well. I also use primarily Lee's aluminum 6-cavity moulds. These moulds make casting your own a pretty efficient operation. With them, you can turn out a lot of bullets in a pretty short amount of time, without breaking the bank. One time, in one weekend, I banged out 6,000 of those 105-grainers for .38 Special. Total casting time was 11 hours. Yeah, a marathon session, but I had bullets to last me for a while. It took me about 10 months to get through them all, as I was typically using 250 rounds/week to practice (one 50-round box a day, five days/week). It would've taken only six months if I hadn't also been shooting .45 Colt, .357M, and the .44's.

That 105gr mould has well in excess of 100,000 bullets on its clock by now (I stopped counting a few years ago). It still works. It still turns out good bullets to this day. That's a mould that cost me about $50, about 12 or so years ago. And I've never, ever had ammo availability problems ever since I started doing this.

That is the benefit of casting.

Best alloy to use for general-purpose casting is anywhere between BHN 10 and 12, for pretty much everything short of full-house .454 Casull. Do it right, and lead-fouling is not an issue. I speak from experience on that. After a shooting session, all it takes is a few swipes with the brush and a couple of cotton patches to get a nice, clean, shiny bore.
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Re: The importance of casting, and the benefits of Lee 6-cavity moulds

2 by INVICTVS138
I cast both .357/.38 (150 gr) & .45 colt (255gr) And here in ohio those, 2 bullets meet most of my needs for bullets. (I do most of my hunting with a shotgun here.) I’ll probably get a .45 ACP type mold too, like a 230 LRN.

I use Lee 2 cavity molds as I’m no great shakes at casting & I have ancient casting furnaces & equipment. I also “cheat” and buy premade casting alloys, but I have cast with scrap lead too.

But I agree with your central premise. In several points in the past 2 years if I wanted to load .45 colt I had to cast my own bullets. Casting also helped me stretch my .357 supplies out too. While I load several other calibers as well - the ability to cast (& time to do it) & the number of primers I have on hand are my primary limiting factors.

Re: The importance of casting, and the benefits of Lee 6-cavity moulds

3 by CowboyT
I know what you mean about time. That's why I like the 6-cavity models so much. They speed things up a lot more than just the number of cavities, and a lot of the speed increase is how the sprue plate is done on those models. It's a camming-action that eliminates the need for the rubber mallet to whack the sprue plate open with. That said, the 2-cavity moulds do get the job done, too.

Nothing wrong with "ancient" gear, as long as it works, BTW. Matter of fact, some of the "ancient" gear is better made than some of the newer stuff.

Fortunately, reclaimed range lead remains available, and that tends to be around BHN 12-13, which is good for handgun usage.
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Re: The importance of casting, and the benefits of Lee 6-cavity moulds

4 by FrontSight
Lee 6 cavity molds are kinda the shit!! I mean, they produce very accurate bullets, a lot of them; and the molds are pretty cheap to boot. How do you beat that?
I would love to see Lee give the entire line a review and update. I think some of their bullets are not such great designs, or horribly dated. But most are still VERY relevant bullets, and when I’m looking for a cast bullet, I look at Lee first. Their more recent additions to their mold lineup are just plain outstanding.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: The importance of casting, and the benefits of Lee 6-cavity moulds

6 by cooper
Have also been thinking about casting at some point. Probably just 38 spc / 357 mag. Two questions.

Using the Lee molds, do you use the bullets "as is" out of the mold, or do they need to be sized in a die or whatever before loading.

I've read some people cast with lead wheel weights. I love the idea of re-purposing junk, but is this more hassle than it's worth? Anyone use lead wheel weights?

The importance of casting, and the benefits of Lee 6-cavity moulds

8 by INVICTVS138
I get a decent amount of holes and deformations when I cast. More with .45 colt than .357. My old Lyman mold seems to drop them a bit better than the Lee, but that could be purely a function of volume? I try to immediately throw them back In The furnace, but a lot of times I miss them in the process and don’t notice until I’m loading & more closely inspecting them prior to lubing. I can only imagine I’d get more duds with 6 cavity. Is there something about the process I’m missing here?


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Re: The importance of casting, and the benefits of Lee 6-cavity moulds

9 by FrontSight
cooper wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:00 am Have also been thinking about casting at some point. Probably just 38 spc / 357 mag. Two questions.

Using the Lee molds, do you use the bullets "as is" out of the mold, or do they need to be sized in a die or whatever before loading.

I've read some people cast with lead wheel weights. I love the idea of re-purposing junk, but is this more hassle than it's worth? Anyone use lead wheel weights?
For optimal accuracy, all bullets should be sized. However, bullets that are not sized, are often quite accurate. So it’s a matter of preference and convenience that the individual caster has to decide for themselves. The micro-band tumble lube bullets are typically used un-sized and just kinda squirted with lubricant. You would be amazed at how accurate those bullets are. They are perfect for practice and plinking.

As for wheel weights… I personally use nothing but wheel weights. It is close enough to ideal for what I want out of a bullet, that I just don’t even bother with any additional alloying of the lead…that’s just me.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

The importance of casting, and the benefits of Lee 6-cavity moulds

10 by INVICTVS138
FrontSight wrote:
For optimal accuracy, all bullets should be sized. However, bullets that are not sized, are often quite accurate. So it’s a matter of preference and convenience that the individual caster has to decide for themselves. The micro-band tumble lube bullets are typically used un-sized and just kinda squirted with lubricant. You would be amazed at how accurate those bullets are. They are perfect for practice and plinking.
I didn’t know you could get away without sizing?

I have 2 methods: a Lyman lubricizer (hard to find new dies for) and a push through Lee sizer which works well for the tumble lube. I find the Alox tumble lube to work well - but I’m not pushing those hard.
FrontSight wrote:

As for wheel weights… I personally use nothing but wheel weights. It is close enough to ideal for what I want out of a bullet, that I just don’t even bother with any additional alloying of the lead…that’s just me.

How fast are you pushing wheel weights…? I would imagine it would be fine for low(er) velocity loads. I’m not sure if they are pure lead which IRRC is roughly 5 BRN ? Or are they alloyed already?


ETA: I’m probably being way over cautious about leading. SBut I rarely shoot more than 100 hand loads through a given firearm at any time. More often less than 50.

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Re: The importance of casting, and the benefits of Lee 6-cavity moulds

11 by CowboyT
Generally speaking, I do not size my cast bullets. However, there are certain handguns for which this is helpful.

I'll start with the 105-gr .38/357 mould, the one that by far gets the most use. I use this bullet in my powder-puff .38 Special load.

The S&W Model 64 (in .38 Special) has somewhat tight-ish chambers compared to the Security-Six. The result is that one out of every six rounds is a tight fit into the S&W's chamber. I have mic'ed these bullets at 0.3605", so that particular cavity in my mould does run a bit large. This is great for the Security-Six, though, as the chambers in that revolver are just a hair big.

My solution was to order a 0.359" custom sizer die from Lee Precision (I already had 0.358") and run all bullets through that 0.359" sizer die. That did the trick. Now the .38 Special rounds juuuuust fit into the S&W without pushing them (they still drop right in), and they're just big enough that the Security-Six gets a good seal at the chamber.

The 158gr 0.358" LRNFP mould, those drop at 0.358" to 0.359". Perfect. No sizing needed, just lube, load, and head to the range.

The .45 caliber bullets, I also do not size. Actually, on the 200gr mould, I had to bump open the chambers just a bit, from 0.4505" to 0.452", with some polish and a spare cast bullet. The 255gr mould is right at 0.451" to 0.452". I use both as they drop from the mould. Now, the 1911's do have slightly tight chambers, unlike the Super Redhawk 454, so for .45 ACP loading, I run the finished rounds through the Lee Factory Crimp Die, since I'm doing this on a progressive press. Then the rounds chamber in any .45 ACP firearm I've ever tried. Note that our range's rental Glock 21 and Kimber 1911 both chamber the rounds just fine without using the LFCD.

And likewise for the .44-caliber (0.429") moulds. These drop right at 0.429" to 0.431, both 200gr and 240gr. Rounds chamber perfectly in all guns of that chambering (.44 Spl/Magnum) that I've tried.

So, for the most part, no, I don't size my bullets, except for the 105-grainers. Even then, I only do so for one certain specific gun, and the Lee Factory Crimp Die can help nicely with that, too, if you're on a progressive press.
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Re: The importance of casting, and the benefits of Lee 6-cavity moulds

12 by CowboyT
INVICTVS138 wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:46 pm
FrontSight wrote:
For optimal accuracy, all bullets should be sized. However, bullets that are not sized, are often quite accurate. So it’s a matter of preference and convenience that the individual caster has to decide for themselves. The micro-band tumble lube bullets are typically used un-sized and just kinda squirted with lubricant. You would be amazed at how accurate those bullets are. They are perfect for practice and plinking.
I didn’t know you could get away without sizing?

I have 2 methods: a Lyman lubricizer (hard to find new dies for) and a push through Lee sizer which works well for the tumble lube. I find the Alox tumble lube to work well - but I’m not pushing those hard.
I almost never size, per the above, and actually, whether sizing or not helps your accuracy depends entirely on your gun. For my Security-Six, sizing would be detrimental to accuracy, if anything (it prefers slightly larger bullets).

Will continue this in another post, to keep them from growing to novel-length.
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Re: The importance of casting, and the benefits of Lee 6-cavity moulds

13 by FrontSight
INVICTVS138 wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:46 pm How fast are you pushing wheel weights…? I would imagine it would be fine for low(er) velocity loads. I’m not sure if they are pure lead which IRRC is roughly 5 BRN ? Or are they alloyed already?


ETA: I’m probably being way over cautious about leading. SBut I rarely shoot more than 100 hand loads through a given firearm at any time. More often less than 50.

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With my cast bullet loads it was rare to ever exceed 1,200fps. I don’t remember all the Brinnell values, but straight wheel weight alloy as cast is good up to around 1,100-1,200fps, and beyond that, you either quench harden your bullets, or change your alloy to suit. These days, I’m rarely over 1,000fps because I’m only casting for .38 Special, and .45 Colt.

As for leading. I bought a bunch of Lyman Moly Lube many years ago, and I still have some of that. That lube has all but eliminated bullet leading for me, but I still get some frosting from time to time. Personally I clean out lead by firing a few jacketed bullets. There’s always someone who says that’s bad for your barrel, but after 30 years, I have yet to detect any of the “bad”.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: The importance of casting, and the benefits of Lee 6-cavity moulds

14 by CowboyT
Let's continue.
INVICTVS138 wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:46 pm
FrontSight wrote:

As for wheel weights… I personally use nothing but wheel weights. It is close enough to ideal for what I want out of a bullet, that I just don’t even bother with any additional alloying of the lead…that’s just me.

How fast are you pushing wheel weights…? I would imagine it would be fine for low(er) velocity loads. I’m not sure if they are pure lead which IRRC is roughly 5 BRN ? Or are they alloyed already?


ETA: I’m probably being way over cautious about leading. SBut I rarely shoot more than 100 hand loads through a given firearm at any time. More often less than 50.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I push wheel weight lead, and softer, anywhere from 800 fps to about 2,000 fps. The softest lead I've ever used is about BHN 9 to 10.

What matters most of all to prevent lead-fouling are three things.

1.) proper sizing of the bullet for your firearm's chamber and bore
2.) proper lead hardness (or softness, however you prefer to view it)
3.) proper lube, both type and consistency

1.) You want the fattest bullet that will still easily physically chamber in the gun. This is to help minimize any gas leaks and thus gas-cutting, which is one major cause of lead-fouling.

2.) You want the proper lead hardness/softness, and actually, softer tends to be better. I've shot plenty of BHN 10.5 in full-house .357M loads. Same goes for my ".45 Colt Magnum" load, which is about as powerful as a full-house .44M load, maybe just an eensy-bit hotter. That's what I shoot in the Super Redhawk. The softer lead means that your bullet will more fully obturate in the chamber and bore, thus giving a better gas seal, thus less gas-cutting.

I did some experiments with lead hardness and obturation in the Super Redhawk about 10 years ago. Turns out BHN 15-16 doesn't start to obturate until you hit about 30,000 PSI. I know what Lee's book says; I'm letting you know what I saw actually happen with my gun. The powder was Alliant 2400, and the bullet was a 255gr LRNFP. Until I hit that pressure, the barrel was getting full of lead. Ugh. So, I kept bumping the powder charge up, and when I hit a certain point, groups started shrinking drastically. Lead fouling went waaaay down. I bumped up the pressure by another half a grain, and things settled in just a bit more. Going up another half a grain didn't get me any better results, so I stayed with the second charge, which is what I continue to use today.

So, BHN 15-16 starts obturating at about 30,000 PSI. It apparently fully obturates at about 32K to 35K PSI, which is about what my load produces.

I then tried BHN 11-12, standard wheel weight alloy. I got the same excellent results at 32K to 35K PSI that I got with BHN 15-16. So, now I use BHN 11-12 and save the harder stuff for the cast rifle loads.

And this brings up another important point:

You know those "hard cast" bullets that many vendors sell? They advertise them as "HARD CAST! BHN 18!!" like it's a good thing. It's not, not for handgun, or at least anything less than full-tilt .454 Casull (53,000 CUP/65,000 PSI). You want softer for virtually any other application. So, I'd avoid those "hard cast" bullets.

3.) Proper lube means having enough of it, and it being soft enough. That hard blue wax that you see on the "hard cast" bullets? Garbage. It isn't soft enough to melt in the barrel and provide enough of a lubricating surface. What you want is the good ol' NRA 50/50 formula or similar. Liquid Alox, i. e. tumble-lubing, is another very good lubing solution and the one that I use for all my cast bullets. Yep, including the rifles. You don't need to make the bullets brown with liquid Alox. A good ambering is sufficient.

And that's pretty much how I avoid lead-fouling in my firearms.

One more note: yes, Glock polygonally-rifled barrels like my cast bullets, too. They don't get lead-fouled, either, and I've run a bunch of my cast bullet rounds through Glock 17's, 19's, and a 21.
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Re: The importance of casting, and the benefits of Lee 6-cavity moulds

15 by CowboyT
"Cowboy T, did you just say you push your cast bullets up to 2,000 fps?"

Yes, I did. I regularly do so in the Ruger 96/44 lever gun in .44 Magnum, with the 200gr bullet. I also hit close to that speed in the Rossi 92 levergun, also in .44 Magnum. No lead-fouling in either rifle.

I do the same thing in a Mosin with a 160gr bullet over some H322 powder. That one's actually just a little over 2,000 fps. No problems. There, I used Lee's figures for calculating pressure as a guide to get me started, and I fine-tuned from there. Currently I'm using the BHN 15-16 alloy, but I've gotten equally good results with BHN 11-12. Bullets are tumble-lubed with a heavier coat of liquid Alox due to the 29" barrel.

Were I to aim that Mosin load at a whitetail or feral hog with BHN 11-12...that would very likely be organic venison or pork, respectively, for the dinner table.
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Re: The importance of casting, and the benefits of Lee 6-cavity moulds

16 by INVICTVS138
Love this discussion, gents. Lots of wisdom to impart here. I’ve been loading for over a decade, but only casting for about 2 years. I bought a micrometer and that seems to help.

I think part of my issue is that I’m shooting out of quite a few different handguns/carbine at least In calibers .357s/.38s (8 I think?). I know I’ve only ever slugged my S&W 586 Because it is by far the most accurate. However, I think at 25 yards on in, the primary determination of accuracy FOR ME is trigger control. The S&W has a phenomenally light SA trigger pull. Even my 66-3 is way stiffer. Of course the Rugers are all stiffer (except the Blackhawk.) I size all my .38s/.357.s to .358. I think finding a .359 die is unobtainable right now.

I have less .45 colts (one Ruger blackhawk, one Henry) so maybe I’ll play around with those two for less variables. They both shoot very well at iron sight distances, and with the same load - cast 255 gr. Over 7.0 gr win 231. But that’s well below the capability of those two firearms. Pushing around 900 fps. Almost “powder puff” and that’s the “max load” in the Lyman book. I’d like to push them to 1100 fps for a whitetail loading, but I’m waiting on being able to get my hands on more 2400.


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Re: The importance of casting, and the benefits of Lee 6-cavity moulds

17 by FrontSight
I expect I'll even go back to cast bullets for some of my rifles. Haven't done that in a good while. But a few weeks ago I took my No 4 Enfield out with some military ammunition, and that rifle beat the snot out of me. So a nice 1,600-1,800fps .303 load is rattling around the back of my brain.
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Re: The importance of casting, and the benefits of Lee 6-cavity moulds

18 by CowboyT
If you do, then there's a 6-cavity mould for the 0.312" barrels as well. They are the 90741 (traditional lube groove) and 90579 (tumble-lube grooving) moulds. These are 155 and 160gr, respectively. Both shoot well. They can also be sized down to 0.309" or 0.310", depending on your gun. Tumble lubing works well with both bullet styles, as long as you use enough of it.

As for reduced loads, you might give "The Load" a try. If memory serves, that's 16 to 20 grains of 2400 under a 150gr to 160gr cast bullet. It hits about the speeds you're looking for. If 2400 is unobtainium, than H322 also makes a good reduced-load powder. The Lee book's pressure calculations can get you started, and you can fine-tune from there.
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Re: The importance of casting, and the benefits of Lee 6-cavity moulds

20 by NuJudge
I like my cast pistol bullets for revolvers to drop from the mold at the diameter of the cylinder throats. I believe the best way to measure cylinder throat diameters is to use a pin gauge. Using a pin gauge on my .38, .45 acp & .44 Magnum revolvers, I got lots of surprises: the .38 specials from S&W were all .357" or .358", right where I expected them to be. The throats on the .45 acp were .455" and .456", not the expected .452". The .44s were all .428", not the expected .429".

With my 9mm autos, you have to slug the barrel. I found all of my Beretta, 92, Walther P38 and Browning HiPower barrels to run way large, almost .358".

With rifles, you should try to have a bullet the size of the throat, and depending on action type, having the rifling engrave the bullet on loading may support the bullet better on firing, producing better accuracy. For bolt actions, I will have the bullet lightly engrave the rifling in the throat on loading. This is not a good idea on single shots, break-opens or semi-autos.

Until recently, I've cast all my bullets hard, adding a little Tin to improve fluidity of the Lead and increase hardenability, and dropped them from the mold into a bucket of water. The Lead I use is mixed scrap, and has some Tin, Antimony and Arsenic in it. In addition to vastly improving fluidity by depressing the freezing temperature, Tin also hardens two ways: substituting in the Lead crystal lattice, and by forming little dots off inter metallic compounds, and you get better hardening generally with quicker cooling.

A soft bullet can be deformed during the hand loading process. I have always liked high neck tension on cartridges I load, in an effort to prevent bullets being shoved back into the case as they go up a feed ramp. I am experimenting with case expanders that leave a shelf under the bullet, and have generally low neck tension for the part of the case neck in contact with the bullet, a condition the Bullseye shooters have recommended to me, and has produced good accuracy.

NRA did a huge amount of experimentation with cast bullets in the early 1960s, finding that unsized usually shot best

For many bullets, I lubricate by dip or swish lubing, and I try to have the bullet drop from the mold at the right diameter. There are a lot of custom manufacturer that you can read about on the Cast Bolts website, who will produce any diameter you want. Some bullets get lubricated and maybe sized in a RCBS or Lyman press, and frequently the die used is the as cast diameter of the bullet. You can get custom lubricator/sizer dies in any diameter you want. There is another type of sizer/lubricator called the Star, which must have a as cast bullet .001" or .002" larger than finished diameter, and the machines have incredible throughput.

Re: The importance of casting, and the benefits of Lee 6-cavity moulds

21 by CowboyT
Some good information in the above post, there.

That's true about the throat. And Ruger revolvers, at least the Security-Sixes in .357M, appear to run a bit on the larger side, about 0.359" to 0.3600". The S&W's seem to be about 0.3575" to 0.3805", as measured, using a micrometer, by the diameter of the bullets for rounds that will chamber without being "helped" with the thumb or finger. Therefore, for the S&W's, I size to 0.358". For the Security-Six, I size to 0.359". My 105gr LSWC mould does drop one out of every six just over 0.3600", which makes the bullets out of that cavity just a tad too big even for the Security-Six. That's OK; I can always size 'em down; that's what sizing dies are for. Most of my cast bullets pass through the sizing die with zero resistance, so I can easily tell when it's one from that cavity.

(yes, I know, a straight line, have fun)

That NRA experiment with the unsized bullets makes a lot of sense. This is due to the aforementioned gas seal. The better the seal, the straighter the bullet will generally shoot.

High neck tension is fine, but remember that there can only be so much before we start distorting the case neck. That distortion isn't really a problem with handgun rounds, given the distances typically shot with a handgun. But rifle rounds are a different story. We want to keep that case neck as uniform as we can. Therefore, with rifle rounds, I do what I can to size the bullets as closely to the throat diameter as I can, while keeping the neck-sizing of the cartridge case as close as I can to that. With some rifles, especially old milsurps, that can be a balancing act. That's where the BHN 12 hardness/softness can come in to help out with obturating the bullet.

Really soft bullets can be deformed a bit, yes, but I haven't seen that actually happen even as low as BHN 9, at least with my reloading dies (I happen to use Lee). This is true for the rifle cartridges as well as the handgun cartridges. Typically I cast with BHN 12. So, in practice, I haven't seen a problem with it. I suspect it happens if we're talking about pure lead or close, around BHN 6 to 8. That's really soft.
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Re: The importance of casting, and the benefits of Lee 6-cavity moulds

22 by cooper
CowboyT wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 4:14 pm Let's continue.
INVICTVS138 wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:46 pm
FrontSight wrote:

As for wheel weights… I personally use nothing but wheel weights. It is close enough to ideal for what I want out of a bullet, that I just don’t even bother with any additional alloying of the lead…that’s just me.

How fast are you pushing wheel weights…? I would imagine it would be fine for low(er) velocity loads. I’m not sure if they are pure lead which IRRC is roughly 5 BRN ? Or are they alloyed already?


ETA: I’m probably being way over cautious about leading. SBut I rarely shoot more than 100 hand loads through a given firearm at any time. More often less than 50.

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I push wheel weight lead, and softer, anywhere from 800 fps to about 2,000 fps. The softest lead I've ever used is about BHN 9 to 10.

What matters most of all to prevent lead-fouling are three things.

1.) proper sizing of the bullet for your firearm's chamber and bore
2.) proper lead hardness (or softness, however you prefer to view it)
3.) proper lube, both type and consistency

1.) You want the fattest bullet that will still easily physically chamber in the gun. This is to help minimize any gas leaks and thus gas-cutting, which is one major cause of lead-fouling.

2.) You want the proper lead hardness/softness, and actually, softer tends to be better. I've shot plenty of BHN 10.5 in full-house .357M loads. Same goes for my ".45 Colt Magnum" load, which is about as powerful as a full-house .44M load, maybe just an eensy-bit hotter. That's what I shoot in the Super Redhawk. The softer lead means that your bullet will more fully obturate in the chamber and bore, thus giving a better gas seal, thus less gas-cutting.

I did some experiments with lead hardness and obturation in the Super Redhawk about 10 years ago. Turns out BHN 15-16 doesn't start to obturate until you hit about 30,000 PSI. I know what Lee's book says; I'm letting you know what I saw actually happen with my gun. The powder was Alliant 2400, and the bullet was a 255gr LRNFP. Until I hit that pressure, the barrel was getting full of lead. Ugh. So, I kept bumping the powder charge up, and when I hit a certain point, groups started shrinking drastically. Lead fouling went waaaay down. I bumped up the pressure by another half a grain, and things settled in just a bit more. Going up another half a grain didn't get me any better results, so I stayed with the second charge, which is what I continue to use today.

So, BHN 15-16 starts obturating at about 30,000 PSI. It apparently fully obturates at about 32K to 35K PSI, which is about what my load produces.

I then tried BHN 11-12, standard wheel weight alloy. I got the same excellent results at 32K to 35K PSI that I got with BHN 15-16. So, now I use BHN 11-12 and save the harder stuff for the cast rifle loads.

And this brings up another important point:

You know those "hard cast" bullets that many vendors sell? They advertise them as "HARD CAST! BHN 18!!" like it's a good thing. It's not, not for handgun, or at least anything less than full-tilt .454 Casull (53,000 CUP/65,000 PSI). You want softer for virtually any other application. So, I'd avoid those "hard cast" bullets.

3.) Proper lube means having enough of it, and it being soft enough. That hard blue wax that you see on the "hard cast" bullets? Garbage. It isn't soft enough to melt in the barrel and provide enough of a lubricating surface. What you want is the good ol' NRA 50/50 formula or similar. Liquid Alox, i. e. tumble-lubing, is another very good lubing solution and the one that I use for all my cast bullets. Yep, including the rifles. You don't need to make the bullets brown with liquid Alox. A good ambering is sufficient.

And that's pretty much how I avoid lead-fouling in my firearms.

One more note: yes, Glock polygonally-rifled barrels like my cast bullets, too. They don't get lead-fouled, either, and I've run a bunch of my cast bullet rounds through Glock 17's, 19's, and a 21.
Recently started reloading 44 mag to shoot from a Rossi 92 16" barrel and a Super Redhawk 4" barrel. I bought Missouri bullet 240 grain lead RNFP 0.430 diameter, BHN 18. I'm loading what I intend to be mid-power loads and am wondering how to tell if I'm using too hard of a bullet.

Only powder I could get my hands on when I decided to start loading during the pandemic was Universal. Bought it. Didn't use it. Now I'm using it.

Went to Hodgdon and looked up loads for 44 mag 240 grain. They listed one for 240 grain lead SWC (I'm using RNFP):

- Starting Load: 6.5 grains -- 852 fps -- 11,700 CUP.
- Maximum Load: 10.2 -- 1276 -- 37,500 CUP.

This load data is generally in line with data from my Lee reloading book, which refers only to lead cast bullets without specifying shape (SWC vs RNFP).

So, I started loading at 6.5 grains, then 7.5 grains, 8.5 grains, and 9.0 grains.

Seems to be performing okay. How many mistakes am I making here?

The importance of casting, and the benefits of Lee 6-cavity moulds

23 by INVICTVS138
cooper wrote:
CowboyT wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 4:14 pm Let's continue.
INVICTVS138 wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:46 pm
FrontSight wrote:

As for wheel weights… I personally use nothing but wheel weights. It is close enough to ideal for what I want out of a bullet, that I just don’t even bother with any additional alloying of the lead…that’s just me.

How fast are you pushing wheel weights…? I would imagine it would be fine for low(er) velocity loads. I’m not sure if they are pure lead which IRRC is roughly 5 BRN ? Or are they alloyed already?


ETA: I’m probably being way over cautious about leading. SBut I rarely shoot more than 100 hand loads through a given firearm at any time. More often less than 50.

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I push wheel weight lead, and softer, anywhere from 800 fps to about 2,000 fps. The softest lead I've ever used is about BHN 9 to 10.

What matters most of all to prevent lead-fouling are three things.

1.) proper sizing of the bullet for your firearm's chamber and bore
2.) proper lead hardness (or softness, however you prefer to view it)
3.) proper lube, both type and consistency

1.) You want the fattest bullet that will still easily physically chamber in the gun. This is to help minimize any gas leaks and thus gas-cutting, which is one major cause of lead-fouling.

2.) You want the proper lead hardness/softness, and actually, softer tends to be better. I've shot plenty of BHN 10.5 in full-house .357M loads. Same goes for my ".45 Colt Magnum" load, which is about as powerful as a full-house .44M load, maybe just an eensy-bit hotter. That's what I shoot in the Super Redhawk. The softer lead means that your bullet will more fully obturate in the chamber and bore, thus giving a better gas seal, thus less gas-cutting.

I did some experiments with lead hardness and obturation in the Super Redhawk about 10 years ago. Turns out BHN 15-16 doesn't start to obturate until you hit about 30,000 PSI. I know what Lee's book says; I'm letting you know what I saw actually happen with my gun. The powder was Alliant 2400, and the bullet was a 255gr LRNFP. Until I hit that pressure, the barrel was getting full of lead. Ugh. So, I kept bumping the powder charge up, and when I hit a certain point, groups started shrinking drastically. Lead fouling went waaaay down. I bumped up the pressure by another half a grain, and things settled in just a bit more. Going up another half a grain didn't get me any better results, so I stayed with the second charge, which is what I continue to use today.

So, BHN 15-16 starts obturating at about 30,000 PSI. It apparently fully obturates at about 32K to 35K PSI, which is about what my load produces.

I then tried BHN 11-12, standard wheel weight alloy. I got the same excellent results at 32K to 35K PSI that I got with BHN 15-16. So, now I use BHN 11-12 and save the harder stuff for the cast rifle loads.

And this brings up another important point:

You know those "hard cast" bullets that many vendors sell? They advertise them as "HARD CAST! BHN 18!!" like it's a good thing. It's not, not for handgun, or at least anything less than full-tilt .454 Casull (53,000 CUP/65,000 PSI). You want softer for virtually any other application. So, I'd avoid those "hard cast" bullets.

3.) Proper lube means having enough of it, and it being soft enough. That hard blue wax that you see on the "hard cast" bullets? Garbage. It isn't soft enough to melt in the barrel and provide enough of a lubricating surface. What you want is the good ol' NRA 50/50 formula or similar. Liquid Alox, i. e. tumble-lubing, is another very good lubing solution and the one that I use for all my cast bullets. Yep, including the rifles. You don't need to make the bullets brown with liquid Alox. A good ambering is sufficient.

And that's pretty much how I avoid lead-fouling in my firearms.

One more note: yes, Glock polygonally-rifled barrels like my cast bullets, too. They don't get lead-fouled, either, and I've run a bunch of my cast bullet rounds through Glock 17's, 19's, and a 21.
Recently started reloading 44 mag to shoot from a Rossi 92 16" barrel and a Super Redhawk 4" barrel. I bought Missouri bullet 240 grain lead RNFP 0.430 diameter, BHN 18. I'm loading what I intend to be mid-power loads and am wondering how to tell if I'm using too hard of a bullet.

Only powder I could get my hands on when I decided to start loading during the pandemic was Universal. Bought it. Didn't use it. Now I'm using it.

Went to Hodgdon and looked up loads for 44 mag 240 grain. They listed one for 240 grain lead SWC (I'm using RNFP):

- Starting Load: 6.5 grains -- 852 fps -- 11,700 CUP.
- Maximum Load: 10.2 -- 1276 -- 37,500 CUP.

This load data is generally in line with data from my Lee reloading book, which refers only to lead cast bullets without specifying shape (SWC vs RNFP).

So, I started loading at 6.5 grains, then 7.5 grains, 8.5 grains, and 9.0 grains.

Seems to be performing okay. How many mistakes am I making here?
I also had a bunch of Universal that I used during the pandemic. Though primarily for both .38 and .357 loads. It can be used in a wide variety loads which is probably where it’s moniker comes from.

Personally, I like it better as .357 and than .38 or .45 colt. I think it likes to be run hot. I like other powders (as I can find them) over universal for specific loads. I really like Win 231 for .38, .45 ACP, and light .45 colt loads. 2400, and secondly h110 for “magnum” handgun loads. Universal seems to leave more powder residue and has kind of a fouler smell than win 231 in lighter loads. However, it’s a very versatile powder; so I would definitely use it if I had it on hand. I have quite a bit of 231 and I prefer that.

ETA- right now, I’m just shooting factory ammo. I shoot primarily 9mm and .22LR at the range these days and a little bit of .45 colt hand loads sprinkled in. I am trying to save my hand loading components for the next “shortage.” (There always is one. So for now, while 9mm is 26 cpr I’m blazing that away.


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