Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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featureless wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 10:05 pm
CDFingers wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 6:14 pm A woman's fourth amendment right to privacy goes out the window. Because conservative reasons argle bargle.

CDFingers
Yes and no. The ruling was on a constitutionality enumerated right, not on abortion or privacy. We were warned that tying abortion to privacy was risky. And we didn't do anything about it. We were also warned that ending the filibuster for supreme court justices could be catastrophically bad but we did it anyway.

That said, I'm with you, CDFingers. A woman's choice over what happens with her body is absolute. The constitution, however, is mute on it. I'd like to see the Dems and moderate republican (if those exist anymore) legislate the right. Alas... There's guns to flap about.
Absolutely agree. Also on rights that are not mentioned they are assumed to exist. The bill of rights was not intended as limits to your right, it was specific that the state could not limit these rights. Other rights were assumed to exist with the people and there was no need to mention them. This would include a woman’s autonomy.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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highdesert wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 11:33 am
CDFingers wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 10:47 am
highdesert wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 8:07 am I agree CT, it would be nice to have some consistency in our laws. Whether it's age of majority/adulthood, age at which someone can legally sign a contract, can legally buy and drink alcohol publicly, serve in the military without parental permission, enter into marriage without parental permission, be tried as an adult and of course purchase a firearm. Like with all legislation, special interests have been at work.
The Ninth and Tenth Amendments show that the states can try and pull off anything they want to, but that the SCOTUS has the last call. That states can shit can a woman's right to choose yet protect an 18 year old's right to have a concealable weapon shows once again how money makes strange bedfellows and democracy a messy business.

CDFingers
Yup the two political parties wanted new voters, one of the reasons they agreed to lower the voting age to 18. 18 year olds tend to be more fit and with 18 the majority age, they could enlist in the volunteer military or if conscription returns in the future they can be drafted. Fodder for old men's wars.

RBG advocated arguing that the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment justifies legalizing abortion. First abortion medications have to be legal in all 50 states, again doing it by court decision alone isn't enough, it has to be made part of federal statute law.
Hmm...this seems to imply the notion that lowering the voting age to 18 is what made 18 the majority age, and thus subject to conscription, a.k.a. the draft. I hope that's not what was meant, because if so, 18 was already the age of conscription (the draft), and the point of "old enough to fight, old enough to vote" was, of course, 18 year olds demanding the right to vote. The draft was so contentious and unpopular during the Vietnam War years that government officials knew they had to pass that or risk losing their jobs at the ballot box.

To anyone who opposes, "old enough to fight, old enough to vote, old enough to exercise all of your civil rights as well":

Given that we judge 18 year olds as old enough to vote, old enough to be tried as adults in criminal court, old enough to be jailed with "Bubba", and even old enough to join the military, what would be your basis for telling them no to the right to purchase a handgun and ammunition for it as well?
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Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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CowboyT wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 8:30 pm Personally, I'm for this ruling. Far as I'm concerned, old enough to be drafted, old enough to exercise all of your adulthood rights, and that means *ALL* of them...including those under the 2A. Rights are rights, and privileges are privileges. Old enough to fight, old enough to vote, and old enough for the rest of your rights, too.

I might also add that there is nothing illegal about an 18-20 year old owning a handgun. Nor is there anything illegal about an 18-20 year old possessing "handgun ammunition". Rather, what the law says is that you cannot sell handguns or "handgun ammunition" to someone 18-20 years old. However, if that 18-20 year old has a handgun gifted to him/her by Dad or Mom or some other close family member--where that's legal, of course, and it still is in quite a few states--then there's no problem with that 18-20 year old going to a range and enjoying some marksmanship practice.

Likewise with ammo; it's not illegal for an 18-20 year old to possess it or use it. Rather, it's that an FFL cannot sell it to someone under 21 or they risk losing their FFL. However, nothing in the law says an 18-20 year old cannot handload his or her own ammo, say, .38/357 or 9mm or .45 ACP or whatever else.
Here's the classic George Carlin soliloquy on rights:
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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cooper wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 11:35 am
wings wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 7:46 am Even more to the point, how was it practical to tell 18 year olds they must bear arms in compulsory service to the Armed Forces, but not as private citizens?
Excellent choice of words. It's 100% practical for the state. It's a cannon fodder thing.
This always gets brought up. Let us not forget that those 18 year old soldiers who are trained with weapons do not get to take those weapons home. They're for work, not for home. Thus, while it sort sounds all wokey and equal, it's not.Soldiers leave their guns at work when they're working stateside. When it's time, they get issued the weapon for work. When soldiers are stateside, guns are pretty closely controlled on base.

These two ideas about age and gun rights and soldiers are not the same things, eh.

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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CDFingers wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 12:35 pm
cooper wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 11:35 am
wings wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 7:46 am Even more to the point, how was it practical to tell 18 year olds they must bear arms in compulsory service to the Armed Forces, but not as private citizens?
Excellent choice of words. It's 100% practical for the state. It's a cannon fodder thing.
This always gets brought up. Let us not forget that those 18 year old soldiers who are trained with weapons do not get to take those weapons home. They're for work, not for home. Thus, while it sort sounds all wokey and equal, it's not.Soldiers leave their guns at work when they're working stateside. When it's time, they get issued the weapon for work. When soldiers are stateside, guns are pretty closely controlled on base.

These two ideas about age and gun rights and soldiers are not the same things, eh.

CDFingers
Bingo. I know we have veterans here who can speak with more authority than me, but I'm under the impression that 18 year old service members are at least monitored. I hope?

But my main point is, it is in the state's best interest to have 18-20 year olds in the service. Yes they're physically better able to handle things -- but not any better than a 25 year old. Difference? 18-20 year olds are more pliable cannon fodder for the state than older folks. It has nothing to do with the state thinking they are responsible.

Maybe minimum enlistment age of 30 and we'd have less wars?

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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Jobs come with tools, the job of the military is protection and the tools they use are explosives, rifles, handguns, tanks, armored vehicles... When they're not working they're not authorized to use those tools. When I was a civil servant I had use of a vehicle, smartphone, laptop, aircard...,but those were for official business. I had my personal vehicle, smartphone, laptop.... as I assume some members of the military have their own rifles, handguns... The recent lower court decisions regarding 18 year olds and firearms purchases will eventually get to SCOTUS and hopefully we get a final decision.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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cooper wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 11:35 am
wings wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 7:46 am Even more to the point, how was it practical to tell 18 year olds they must bear arms in compulsory service to the Armed Forces, but not as private citizens?
Excellent choice of words. It's 100% practical for the state. It's a cannon fodder thing.
Thats the way I felt when they were about to draft me into the Vietnam War, and I wanted booze as well.
Lets put it this way. The state wants you to go fight wars for them and risk your life and limb, plus kill people at their behest with guns. It's only fair to allow them to own one.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing,”

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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CDFingers wrote:
cooper wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 11:35 am
wings wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 7:46 am Even more to the point, how was it practical to tell 18 year olds they must bear arms in compulsory service to the Armed Forces, but not as private citizens?
Excellent choice of words. It's 100% practical for the state. It's a cannon fodder thing.
This always gets brought up. Let us not forget that those 18 year old soldiers who are trained with weapons do not get to take those weapons home. They're for work, not for home. Thus, while it sort sounds all wokey and equal, it's not.Soldiers leave their guns at work when they're working stateside. When it's time, they get issued the weapon for work. When soldiers are stateside, guns are pretty closely controlled on base.

These two ideas about age and gun rights and soldiers are not the same things, eh.

CDFingers


I tend to agree; Separate issues. Access to weapons was highly controlled at all times in the military.

I would have to go to the armory sign out a firearm (usually an M9 pistol, Mk-18 rifle and ammo) and I had to have a legitimate purpose; I.e I was on watch, a boarding team, training event etc. 18y/os aren’t running around the base with uncontrolled/unaccountable firearms.

In foreign ports, with elevated threat levels; as command duty officer, I was issued a pistol for a 24 hr period but I turned it in after my watch was over. In CONUS, I was not issued a pistol for the same watch (unless elevated threat level) and only the “quarterdeck” watch and a topside River was armed. In fact - we had a guy “steal” an M9 pistol but we locked down the ship immediately for a “health & comfort” inspection & he was discharged.

There are lawful exceptions, but privately owned firearms are very tightly controlled on bases as well.


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Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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Bingo - y'all have rediscovered the well regulated militia.

We are dealing with lingering historical consequences of past precedents. In this case, the draft and compulsory military service intersecting with the transition to adulthood and acquisition of full rights of citizenship. If we had drafted young men at 25 instead of 18, this might have been a different argument.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm on record as supporting the interpretation that the Second Amendment implicitly supports state-level regulation of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, in support of states rights to establish, control, and regulate their own militias. What we often term 2A absolutists are, in fact, radical supporters of the 14th. Which I ardently support and cleave to myself. Thus the conundrum.

How many of us shot our first gun before the age of 15? I did. How many would feel comfortable handing a young person a handgun for their 15th birthday, even if it were their legally-enshrined right? How many would hand it over to protect the homestead under actual assault? The problem with law is that it must establish general guidelines for acceptable conduct, regardless of nuance and circumstance. Reasons we filter the rule of law through the judgment of our peers. Reasons I'm more comfortable with regulatory frameworks than absolutism. Find me the system that's free from the potential for abuse.

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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cooper wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 12:52 pm
CDFingers wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 12:35 pm
cooper wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 11:35 am
wings wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 7:46 am Even more to the point, how was it practical to tell 18 year olds they must bear arms in compulsory service to the Armed Forces, but not as private citizens?
Excellent choice of words. It's 100% practical for the state. It's a cannon fodder thing.
This always gets brought up. Let us not forget that those 18 year old soldiers who are trained with weapons do not get to take those weapons home. They're for work, not for home. Thus, while it sort sounds all wokey and equal, it's not.Soldiers leave their guns at work when they're working stateside. When it's time, they get issued the weapon for work. When soldiers are stateside, guns are pretty closely controlled on base.

These two ideas about age and gun rights and soldiers are not the same things, eh.

CDFingers
Bingo. I know we have veterans here who can speak with more authority than me, but I'm under the impression that 18 year old service members are at least monitored. I hope?

But my main point is, it is in the state's best interest to have 18-20 year olds in the service. Yes they're physically better able to handle things -- but not any better than a 25 year old. Difference? 18-20 year olds are more pliable cannon fodder for the state than older folks. It has nothing to do with the state thinking they are responsible.

Maybe minimum enlistment age of 30 and we'd have less wars?
Most importantly, these 18yo soldiers are TRAINED to use guns. Not just some kid with a clean record , a driver's license and mom's credit card.

Besides, if the 18yo argument holds, why can't an 18yo be a cop?
https://www.quora.com/How-can-I-become-a-cop-at-18

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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F4FEver wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 8:29 am Most importantly, these 18yo soldiers are TRAINED to use guns. Not just some kid with a clean record , a driver's license and mom's credit card.

Besides, if the 18yo argument holds, why can't an 18yo be a cop?
https://www.quora.com/How-can-I-become-a-cop-at-18
Actually, they can. A 19-year-old rookie cop pulled me over for expired tags a few years ago (it was after a couple of weeks being out of the area and I'd let it slip). Just like 18-20 year olds can join the military, they likewise can become police officers.
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Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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We have made 18 year old adults by the constitution and their obligations to society through it. They should therefore enjoy all adult rights. If we want to change it, fix the constitution and laws to start military obligations at 21 or older. As it sits, 18 is an adult, not a child. They also should not be in the statistics for teenage crimes and homicides. It distorts the facts, you can’t be a child and an adult at the same time. Pick one.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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sikacz wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 8:48 am We have made 18 year old adults by the constitution and their obligations to society through it. They should therefore enjoy all adult rights. If we want to change it, fix the constitution and laws to start military obligations at 21 or older. As it sits, 18 is an adult, not a child. They also should not be in the statistics for teenage crimes and homicides. It distorts the facts, you can’t be a child and an adult at the same time. Pick one.
I agree.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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CDFingers wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 12:44 pm It appears that an adult cannot become President of the US until the age of 35.

Well, now.

CDFingers
And some of us can never be president, the limits on being president also sets up who is a privileged citizen and those of us who are second class citizens. Yes, those of us who cannot run for president are second class citizens when the likes of trump can run and get elected.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Over eighteen to buy a hand gun: good to go

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CDFingers wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 12:44 pm It appears that an adult cannot become President of the US until the age of 35.

Well, now.

CDFingers
So what? That's not sending them to fight and die for their country like the draft (Selective Service) can do. Eligibility to be conscripted to die for your country equals eligibility for full rights, far as I'm concerned. And if that's "absolutism", then I consider that a very positive example of it and one that should be encouraged. Sometimes, yes, an absolutist position is called for, e. g. the abolishment of slavery. Same here.

Obviously we're not going to agree on this. But that's the beauty of the United States; unlike so many other places, we get to do that here.
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