Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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featureless wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 4:31 pm YT, are you saying there was no background check on the purchases? My understanding is they were through a store and would have been a background check. And all you need is one.

Just checked, all sources say legal purchased at gun stores, so federal FFL background check applied.

And a "whole bunch a guns quickly" has little to do with it. You only need one. There were apparently three on the body. Seeing 7 were purchased.
All I’ve heard is they were legally purchased. That implies in most cases an FFL. The problem is the individual had a clear record. How the hell does anyone think there was a way to dig something up that was not part of the public record. Background checks do not find that which is not recorded.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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Earlier it emerged that Hale had previously posted on Facebook about the death of a romantic partner, according to a former teacher, giving a possible clue as to the motivation behind the attack.

Maria Colomy, who taught Hale at the Nossi College of Art & Design in Nashville, recalled a social media post from the shooter “openly grieving” the unknown individual and said that Hale had announced the bereavement and asked to be addressed as Aiden and by masculine pronouns from then on.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 10677.html

Saw somewhere that the Metro Nashville PD response from 911 call to neutralizing shooter was 14 minutes, that beats the Uvalde response by miles.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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featureless wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:46 am
F4FEver wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:01 am
You are eh? Seems his rage is directed at President Biden. His policies, his sound bites...His railing about Biden stopping russia attempts to invade and occupy a sovereign nation...Yet, ignoring the many ways Biden is trying to preserve the rights of women, trans people, anybody of color.
You do realize Biden is the president, yes? :) I don't subscribe to the notion that "dear leader is beyond reproach" no matter which party holds the office and this is very much not the "we love everything about Biden cuz he's a Democrat" gun club.

Universal background checks would not have stopped this. The guns were acquired legally. Adding voluntary mental health treatment to the list of disqualifiers would have serious negative consequences for an already shitty system. Can you imagine knowing you need mental health treatment but the first step to entry is waiving your 2A rights? For much of this country, that would bar them from ever seeking help. Then what you've created is a bunch of untreated gun owners. Sound better?
I don't love everything that President Biden does either but 'some other's' drum beat about Biden(he's an ass, Biden's senile...right out of the tucker playbook) ignores the many places where he is concerned about people's rights.

A more comprehensive BGC that looked at the mental health of this shooter may well have prevented her from buying 7 guns. A better RFL, started by g-her MOM may well have prevented this shooting. A more comprehensive BGC system isn't an auto DECLINED, but it makes sense to take a closer look at some people. Like this shooter of 3 9 year old children.
Last edited by F4FEver on Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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featureless wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 4:31 pm YT, are you saying there was no background check on the purchases? My understanding is they were through a store and would have been a background check. And all you need is one.

Just checked, all sources say legal purchased at gun stores, so federal FFL background check applied.

And a "whole bunch a guns quickly" has little to do with it. You only need one. There were apparently three on the body. Seeing 7 were purchased.
The BGC check 'system' is a joke. Easy access is the issue here. Once again, after the fact, from info from her mother, this shooter probably shouldn't have access to 7 guns. I bought a gun yesterday(Taurus snubbie to scratch that itch)...but the guy in front of me was so 'demented', he couldn't answer these very simple ? on the 4473..and without the sale guy, he wouldn't have been able to do it..yet, he bought a gun(2 actually)...

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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F4FEver wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:56 am
featureless wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 4:31 pm YT, are you saying there was no background check on the purchases? My understanding is they were through a store and would have been a background check. And all you need is one.

Just checked, all sources say legal purchased at gun stores, so federal FFL background check applied.

And a "whole bunch a guns quickly" has little to do with it. You only need one. There were apparently three on the body. Seeing 7 were purchased.
The BGC check 'system' is a joke. Easy access is the issue here. Once again, after the fact, from info from her mother, this shooter probably shouldn't have access to 7 guns. I bought a gun yesterday(Taurus snubbie to scratch that itch)...but the guy in front of me was so 'demented', he couldn't answer these very simple ? on the 4473..and without the sale guy, he wouldn't have been able to do it..yet, he bought a gun(2 actually)...
I want to be very clear that I sympathize with your position. I would very much like to reduce senseless homicide (and suicide). However, I am very much resistant to adding "stupid" and "mental health" to a background check system. First, the background check system is intended to identify people who are either prohibited persons (i.e., convicted of a qualifying crime) or adjudicated mentally ill (involuntarily committed). In both these cases, some level of judicial process was applied to land them on "the list." What I continue to hear is, let's add mental health patients. That is one hell of a slippery slope, and essentially lands people who have used or are using the mental health system on a list where there has been no due process. Or, it puts their therapist/doc in the position of sole discretion of adding said person to the list. Or, it treats any mental health patient as suspect and finds them guilty enough to at least deny them a fundamental right. It's persecutory at best. It will absolutely keep people who can be helped by mental health treatment from seeking it out. There's enough stigma around it already.

Personal perspective: I was diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Disorder (GAD). It is not a mental health issue that is self resolving or goes away. I get to enjoy it my entire life. It's pretty easy to detect when I need to be extra mindful of it because my clothes that fit fine a minute ago suddenly don't fit right and are making me itchy (lizard brain telling me to get naked and amped up to fight off that saber tooth tiger). I have never and will never be homicidal or suicidal--neither are in my nature, I am foremost concerned with providing for my family and friends. I am unmedicated (not a whole lot out there for us anxious folk that isn't a Schedule 1 disqualifier), functional and utilize acupuncture, breathing and mindfulness to control the 'ol lizard brain. I don't use drugs or alcohol. I've held the same professional job for 24 years and been married to the love of my life even longer. I am extremely stable. That said, a decade or so ago, I experienced one panic attack where I wasn't sure if it was a panic attack or a heart attack (symptoms are similar). I did not seek emergency medical treatment. Why? Because, in California, if I'd been even voluntarily held at the hospital for observation/treatment concerning "mental health" (GAD is in my charts) rather than cardiac health, I'd get a 5 year ban of firearm possession and, depending on who's making the subjective determination, my right to a CCW forever. Doesn't matter one iota that I'm not a danger to myself or others once you get to "apply the system." Hell of a system, eh? 1 out of 10, do not recommend.

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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featureless wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:57 am
F4FEver wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:56 am
featureless wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 4:31 pm YT, are you saying there was no background check on the purchases? My understanding is they were through a store and would have been a background check. And all you need is one.

Just checked, all sources say legal purchased at gun stores, so federal FFL background check applied.

And a "whole bunch a guns quickly" has little to do with it. You only need one. There were apparently three on the body. Seeing 7 were purchased.
The BGC check 'system' is a joke. Easy access is the issue here. Once again, after the fact, from info from her mother, this shooter probably shouldn't have access to 7 guns. I bought a gun yesterday(Taurus snubbie to scratch that itch)...but the guy in front of me was so 'demented', he couldn't answer these very simple ? on the 4473..and without the sale guy, he wouldn't have been able to do it..yet, he bought a gun(2 actually)...
I want to be very clear that I sympathize with your position. I would very much like to reduce senseless homicide (and suicide). However, I am very much resistant to adding "stupid" and "mental health" to a background check system. First, the background check system is intended to identify people who are either prohibited persons (i.e., convicted of a qualifying crime) or adjudicated mentally ill (involuntarily committed). In both these cases, some level of judicial process was applied to land them on "the list." What I continue to hear is, let's add mental health patients. That is one hell of a slippery slope, and essentially lands people who have used or are using the mental health system on a list where there has been no due process. Or, it puts their therapist/doc in the position of sole discretion of adding said person to the list. Or, it treats any mental health patient as suspect and finds them guilty enough to at least deny them a fundamental right. It's persecutory at best. It will absolutely keep people who can be helped by mental health treatment from seeking it out. There's enough stigma around it already.

Personal perspective: I was diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Disorder (GAD). It is not a mental health issue that is self resolving or goes away. I get to enjoy it my entire life. It's pretty easy to detect when I need to be extra mindful of it because my clothes that fit fine a minute ago suddenly don't fit right and are making me itchy (lizard brain telling me to get naked and amped up to fight off that saber tooth tiger). I have never and will never be homicidal or suicidal--neither are in my nature, I am foremost concerned with providing for my family and friends. I am unmedicated (not a whole lot out there for us anxious folk that isn't a Schedule 1 disqualifier), functional and utilize acupuncture, breathing and mindfulness to control the 'ol lizard brain. I don't use drugs or alcohol. I've held the same professional job for 24 years and been married to the love of my life even longer. I am extremely stable. That said, a decade or so ago, I experienced one panic attack where I wasn't sure if it was a panic attack or a heart attack (symptoms are similar). I did not seek emergency medical treatment. Why? Because, in California, if I'd been even voluntarily held at the hospital for observation/treatment concerning "mental health" (GAD is in my charts) rather than cardiac health, I'd get a 5 year ban of firearm possession and, depending on who's making the subjective determination, my right to a CCW forever. Doesn't matter one iota that I'm not a danger to myself or others once you get to "apply the system." Hell of a system, eh? 1 out of 10, do not recommend.
Thank you for your perspective and sharing. This is absolutely one of the key reasons to not start adding criteria to our current background check system. Seeking and using medical services should not be something that can be used to deny a person their rights.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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The only thing I see that was good about this tragedy is the Police did the job well. Unlike the cowards at the Uvalde school shooting that would not go in after it was reported he has a "Combat" rifle.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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TrueTexan wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:34 am The only thing I see that was good about this tragedy is the Police did the job well. Unlike the cowards at the Uvalde school shooting that would not go in after it was reported he has a "Combat" rifle.
I agree, MNPD did a good job. Uvalde should be used in all law enforcement active shooter training courses as an example of what not to do.

I agree with featureless that using "mental health" as a reason to deny purchase of a gun is a slippery slope. A former soldier seeks treatment for PTSD, do all of his guns get taken away? And sika is right, reading and language difficulties can make the 4473 a hard form to complete for some people. Politicians and DOJ/ATF have already looked at mental illness and that's why the 4473 question is worded as it is, it's something objective that can be verified.
h. Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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sikacz wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:19 am Side note here, there are people out there with reading issues, that doesn’t make them demented. That’s a pretty prejudiced judgement of a total stranger, a chance meeting.
You mean your prejudiced judgement of me, who is also a stranger? Face it, you don't like some of my posts...oh well.
You weren't there, I was. The POINT is that NOBODY 'should' be allowed to coach anybody with the 4473. It was NOT about reading comprehension. And again, easy access is the problem, not the tool. Not a mass shooting goes by that in hindsight, many agree the shooter, who obtained their guns legally, should not have been allowed to.

Cabelas...2 guys looking at an AR-15...one gent asks caliber...Sales guy answers...gent tells his buddy in spanish, the caliber...Gent says "I'll take it"..
Sales guy asks if he is buying this for his buddy...Gent says yes..they go complete the 4473....Again, easy access. If the guy is legal to buy this AR, he can do it in spanish...

https://www.fastbound.com/ffl-blog/span ... form-4473/
Last edited by F4FEver on Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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F4FEver wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:26 am
sikacz wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:19 am Side note here, there are people out there with reading issues, that doesn’t make them demented. That’s a pretty prejudiced judgement of a total stranger, a chance meeting.
You mean your prejudiced judgement of me, who is also a stranger? Face it, you don't like some of my posts...oh well.
You weren't there, I was. The POINT is that NOBODY 'should' be allowed to coach anybody with the 4473. It was NOT about reading comprehension. And again, easy access if the problem, not the tool. Not a mass shooting goes by that in hindsight, many agree the shooter, who obtained their guns legally, should not have been allowed to.

Cabelas...2 guys looking at an AR-15...one gent asks caliber...Sales guy answers...gent tells his buddy in spanish, the caliber...Gent says "I'll take it"..
Sales guy asks if he is buying this for his buddy...Gent says yes..they go complete the 4473....Again, easy access. If the guy is legal to buy this AR, he can do it in spanish...

https://www.fastbound.com/ffl-blog/span ... form-4473/
I think we can safely move away from "zero" mental health criteria. Generalized anxiety is not one of those disorders that requires prohibition of firearms ownership. A domestic violence restraining order should be a prohibited situation. So should bipolar disorder with violence and a host of other dangerous conditions. I believe we have the skills to determine which conditions may prohibit ownership. Start with due process: if a judge deems someone a domestic violence perpetrator, firearms should be prohibited until certain conditions are met, ones to be determined by the case itself. Absolutism is not the proper path. Speaking Spanish is not a prohibited condition. As long as the paperwork is good.

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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highdesert wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:52 am
TrueTexan wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:34 am The only thing I see that was good about this tragedy is the Police did the job well. Unlike the cowards at the Uvalde school shooting that would not go in after it was reported he has a "Combat" rifle.
I agree, MNPD did a good job. Uvalde should be used in all law enforcement active shooter training courses as an example of what not to do.

I agree with featureless that using "mental health" as a reason to deny purchase of a gun is a slippery slope. A former soldier seeks treatment for PTSD, do all of his guns get taken away? And sika is right, reading and language difficulties can make the 4473 a hard form to complete for some people. Politicians and DOJ/ATF have already looked at mental illness and that's why the 4473 question is worded as it is, it's something objective that can be verified.
h. Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?
Agree. We already have a process that involves adjudication and court records.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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CDFingers wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:44 am
F4FEver wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:26 am
sikacz wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:19 am Side note here, there are people out there with reading issues, that doesn’t make them demented. That’s a pretty prejudiced judgement of a total stranger, a chance meeting.
You mean your prejudiced judgement of me, who is also a stranger? Face it, you don't like some of my posts...oh well.
You weren't there, I was. The POINT is that NOBODY 'should' be allowed to coach anybody with the 4473. It was NOT about reading comprehension. And again, easy access if the problem, not the tool. Not a mass shooting goes by that in hindsight, many agree the shooter, who obtained their guns legally, should not have been allowed to.

Cabelas...2 guys looking at an AR-15...one gent asks caliber...Sales guy answers...gent tells his buddy in spanish, the caliber...Gent says "I'll take it"..
Sales guy asks if he is buying this for his buddy...Gent says yes..they go complete the 4473....Again, easy access. If the guy is legal to buy this AR, he can do it in spanish...

https://www.fastbound.com/ffl-blog/span ... form-4473/
I think we can safely move away from "zero" mental health criteria. Generalized anxiety is not one of those disorders that requires prohibition of firearms ownership. A domestic violence restraining order should be a prohibited situation. So should bipolar disorder with violence and a host of other dangerous conditions. I believe we have the skills to determine which conditions may prohibit ownership. Start with due process: if a judge deems someone a domestic violence perpetrator, firearms should be prohibited until certain conditions are met, ones to be determined by the case itself. Absolutism is not the proper path. Speaking Spanish is not a prohibited condition. As long as the paperwork is good.

CDFingers
I agree 100%...

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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Am I the first one to point out the title of this thread should be fixed?
Shooter was not “female”. If the shooter identifies as male, uses male pronouns, and is indeed transitioning their bodies to be more physically male, there should be no mistaking the gender at this point.
The shooter is NOT female. The difficulty distinguishing which gender they are in this discussion reveals just our own learning curve (behind the younger generation, eh?), and little else.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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Bisbee wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:49 pm Am I the first one to point out the title of this thread should be fixed?
Shooter was not “female”. If the shooter identifies as male, uses male pronouns, and is indeed transitioning their bodies to be more physically male, there should be no mistaking the gender at this point.
The shooter is NOT female. The difficulty distinguishing which gender they are in this discussion reveals just our own learning curve (behind the younger generation, eh?), and little else.
Of course. That is why I referred to the shooter as "they" and "them" myself.

Today we were visiting my son's 1st choice for college (he's been accepted and granted significant merit scholarships) and we saw several young people who were clearly transitioning. I can't say anything about them except they seemed to all be functioning like every other future student here. Isn't that the way it should be?
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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Bisbee wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:49 pm Am I the first one to point out the title of this thread should be fixed?
Shooter was not “female”. If the shooter identifies as male, uses male pronouns, and is indeed transitioning their bodies to be more physically male, there should be no mistaking the gender at this point.
The shooter is NOT female. The difficulty distinguishing which gender they are in this discussion reveals just our own learning curve (behind the younger generation, eh?), and little else.
I did point out there was confusion in the reporting. I was pretty sure something was messed up. I was also wondering about the treatment, if on this case would have been testosterone. Understandably some don’t really care about detail at this point. I did for my own clarity to understand not out of any respect for this individual.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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YankeeTarheel wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 7:23 pm
Bisbee wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:49 pm Am I the first one to point out the title of this thread should be fixed?
Shooter was not “female”. If the shooter identifies as male, uses male pronouns, and is indeed transitioning their bodies to be more physically male, there should be no mistaking the gender at this point.
The shooter is NOT female. The difficulty distinguishing which gender they are in this discussion reveals just our own learning curve (behind the younger generation, eh?), and little else.
Of course. That is why I referred to the shooter as "they" and "them" myself.

Today we were visiting my son's 1st choice for college (he's been accepted and granted significant merit scholarships) and we saw several young people who were clearly transitioning. I can't say anything about them except they seemed to all be functioning like every other future student here. Isn't that the way it should be?
Yes. It is. I’m not best on terminology myself, I grew up before many of these terms came into existence. However, the issues existed even then and gender dysphoria was around before it had a name.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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sikacz wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:19 pm
YankeeTarheel wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 7:23 pm
Bisbee wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:49 pm Am I the first one to point out the title of this thread should be fixed?
Shooter was not “female”. If the shooter identifies as male, uses male pronouns, and is indeed transitioning their bodies to be more physically male, there should be no mistaking the gender at this point.
The shooter is NOT female. The difficulty distinguishing which gender they are in this discussion reveals just our own learning curve (behind the younger generation, eh?), and little else.
Of course. That is why I referred to the shooter as "they" and "them" myself.

Today we were visiting my son's 1st choice for college (he's been accepted and granted significant merit scholarships) and we saw several young people who were clearly transitioning. I can't say anything about them except they seemed to all be functioning like every other future student here. Isn't that the way it should be?
Yes. It is. I’m not best on terminology myself, I grew up before many of these terms came into existence. However, the issues existed even then and gender dysphoria was around before it had a name.
Back in the early 60's in a nearby settlement, there was a girl who DESPERATELY wanted to be a boy. She "changed" her name to "Jack", worked out constantly to build herself up, was a big, strong, lean, mean person who hung out with the boys and NOBODY messed with "Jack" as "Jack" would beat their butts if they did and it had been proven. But one day, "Jack" HAD to wear a skirt to school (before the 1968 SCOTUS decision outlawing such dress codes in public schools) and I remember "Jack"'s so-called friends shouting "Look at Jack wearing a dress!" Must have been terrible for "Jack", betrayed by boys who were supposed to be friends.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: 6 dead in Nashville school shooting, the shooter is female.

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Forty-four years ago today [1973], the American Psychiatric Association (APA) -- the largest psychiatric organization in the world -- made history by issuing a resolution stating that homosexuality was not a mental illness or sickness. This declaration helped shift public opinion, marking a major milestone for LGBTQ equality.

The resolution stated, “We will no longer insist on a label of sickness for individuals who insist that they are well and demonstrate no generalized impairment in social effectiveness.” The statement continued to say the APA supports “civil rights legislation at local, state, and Federal levels that would insure homosexual citizens the same protections now guaranteed to others.”
https://www.hrc.org/news/flashbackfrida ... list-of-me

Immediately after this resolution, millions of Americans were "cured" of homosexuality, it's taken longer for science and the medical community to understand the transgendered.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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Folks say a lot of dumb things before they think. Especially to strangers on the internet. I’m also beginning to suspect that many are AI spambots and not really human. Same with Russian trolls paid to get a rise out of Americans… not real.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

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