EV's way more energy efficient than gasoline for cars

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We could guess that, but here are the deets.
Out of the 8.9 million barrels of gasoline consumed daily in the U.S. on average, only 1.8 million gallons, or approximately 20 percent, actually propel an internal combustion vehicle forward. The other 80 percent is wasted on heat and parasitic auxiliary components that draw away energy. As the world begins its shift to EV proliferation, the good news is electric vehicles are far more energy efficient on the road.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/evs-mor ... n-engines/

Faster, better, cheaper will win out every time.

CDFingers
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Re: EV's way more energy efficient than gasoline for cars

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Even if the grid were entirely fueled by coal, 31% less energy would be needed to charge EVs than to fuel gasoline cars. If EVs were charged by natural gas, the total energy demand for highway transportation would fall by nearly half. Add in hydropower or other renewables, and the result gets even better, saving up to three-fourths of the energy currently used by gasoline-powered vehicles
It provides an interesting counter to some of the "memes" one sees about electric cars. I strongly suspect that my next car will be electric. However, it is not high on my list as I am waiting until my motorcycle is paid off before seriously considering another car.
"Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.” Matt. 25:40

Re: EV's way more energy efficient than gasoline for cars

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It is the future, but it’s not perfect.
http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2014/ ... illiotte2/
In some parts of the world not nearly as practical. Also, the production and disposal is still an environmental issue. Even while driving an EV it’s green footprint depends on how green the energy production is. Yes, it’s a direction. No I’m not clamoring to buy a EV unless it’s a motorcycle. My cars will probably outlive me and I’m not into the disposable culture so I keep things running. Efficiency’s practicality for an individual depends on their usage and resources. Makes little sense for people with limited means to get sucked into throwing away a running vehicle no matter what the fuel source or it’s efficiency. I do entertain the idea of an electric motorcycle though.
https://electrek.co/2022/07/12/speed-po ... otorcycle/
Charging and range is still an issue. I’d go for something like this if some issues were addressed, fast charging for one. Still Triumph is not considering releasing this, they are simply working out the technology.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: EV's way more energy efficient than gasoline for cars

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Greengunner wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:04 am I don't have a garage so home charging would be an issue. I'd have to run a cable from my house out to the car. Otherwise, I'd definitely go full electric.
Well there’s solutions, still need a cable though.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/electric-c ... -stations/
These are some ugly solutions though.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: EV's way more energy efficient than gasoline for cars

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We almost got one for the wife cept we needed a vehicle with range. That for us is the hold out. When EV's have the same range as petrol vehicles that's when its really going to take off.
That and charging stations. Especially getting a charging station out in the never land that isn't getting vandalized by idiots or long lines waiting to charge up.
I believe the idea of a standardized battery where there are stations you can switch them out instead of waiting is the best idea yet. Course car manufacturers can't get their miniscule brains behind that.
Adventurous Dog

Re: EV's way more energy efficient than gasoline for cars

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We looked at EVs but went with the reliable Hybrids We have two Toyota RAV4 Hybrids that get 40+ mpg. As my wife is retiring we may just reduce to one of them. or change to a RAV4 Prime that has the charging of the EV and the Hybrid of the ICE engine.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: EV's way more energy efficient than gasoline for cars

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One important thing to note is how the developing world gets around, on really inefficient, sometimes two-stroke, gas engines. Little jitneys and purpose built contraptions. They're very polluting and inefficient. Developing countries need infrastructure to keep up with the challenges we see in this thread: not only must they be able to charge at home, but at work and on the road. This dovetails with other huge challenges of generation, storage, and distribution.

First, define the problem(s), one of which is wasting precious energy on heat. We haz the numbers now.

CDFingers
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Baio, Baio, tell me how can this be?
You arrest the girls for turning tricks, but you're scared of Staggerlee

Re: EV's way more energy efficient than gasoline for cars

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CDFingers wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:08 pm One important thing to note is how the developing world gets around, on really inefficient, sometimes two-stroke, gas engines. Little jitneys and purpose built contraptions. They're very polluting and inefficient. Developing countries need infrastructure to keep up with the challenges we see in this thread: not only must they be able to charge at home, but at work and on the road. This dovetails with other huge challenges of generation, storage, and distribution.

First, define the problem(s), one of which is wasting precious energy on heat. We haz the numbers now.

CDFingers
Yes those nasty two stroke engines are very prevelent in third world countries.
I've started changing out my tools around the house to battery powered or electric like the lawn mower and weed eater and chain saw.
I have two old human powered push mowers if anyone would like one.
Adventurous Dog

Re: EV's way more energy efficient than gasoline for cars

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CDFingers wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:08 pm One important thing to note is how the developing world gets around, on really inefficient, sometimes two-stroke, gas engines. Little jitneys and purpose built contraptions. They're very polluting and inefficient. Developing countries need infrastructure to keep up with the challenges we see in this thread: not only must they be able to charge at home, but at work and on the road. This dovetails with other huge challenges of generation, storage, and distribution.

First, define the problem(s), one of which is wasting precious energy on heat. We haz the numbers now.

CDFingers
The solutions on the horizon like EV are for advanced nations, not developing or under developed nations. Countries like India are technologically advanced yet not developed to the extent to sustain the same level for all their people. Then there are countries that are far down the technology scale. I applaud the advancement, but let’s not be naive unless we are prepared to pay to bring all countries to our level.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: EV's way more energy efficient than gasoline for cars

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sikacz wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:14 pm
CDFingers wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:08 pm One important thing to note is how the developing world gets around, on really inefficient, sometimes two-stroke, gas engines. Little jitneys and purpose built contraptions. They're very polluting and inefficient. Developing countries need infrastructure to keep up with the challenges we see in this thread: not only must they be able to charge at home, but at work and on the road. This dovetails with other huge challenges of generation, storage, and distribution.

First, define the problem(s), one of which is wasting precious energy on heat. We haz the numbers now.

CDFingers
The solutions on the horizon like EV are for advanced nations, not developing or under developed nations. Countries like India are technologically advanced yet not developed to the extent to sustain the same level for all their people. Then there are countries that are far down the technology scale. I applaud the advancement, but let’s not be naive unless we are prepared to pay to bring all countries to our level.
I disagree because there are billions more users in the developing world than in our first world. Those users need to be sold EV's that are inexpensive and that charge quickly and cheaply. We must focus on them: they make decisions purely on cost whereas we have the luxury of choice.

CDFingers
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Baio, Baio, tell me how can this be?
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Re: EV's way more energy efficient than gasoline for cars

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CDFingers wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:17 pm
sikacz wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:14 pm
CDFingers wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:08 pm One important thing to note is how the developing world gets around, on really inefficient, sometimes two-stroke, gas engines. Little jitneys and purpose built contraptions. They're very polluting and inefficient. Developing countries need infrastructure to keep up with the challenges we see in this thread: not only must they be able to charge at home, but at work and on the road. This dovetails with other huge challenges of generation, storage, and distribution.

First, define the problem(s), one of which is wasting precious energy on heat. We haz the numbers now.

CDFingers
The solutions on the horizon like EV are for advanced nations, not developing or under developed nations. Countries like India are technologically advanced yet not developed to the extent to sustain the same level for all their people. Then there are countries that are far down the technology scale. I applaud the advancement, but let’s not be naive unless we are prepared to pay to bring all countries to our level.
I disagree because there are billions more users in the developing world than in our first world. Those users need to be sold EV's that are inexpensive and that charge quickly and cheaply. We must focus on them: they make decisions purely on cost whereas we have the luxury of choice.

CDFingers
The problem with the third world and EVs is the inexpensive vehicles and the lack infrastructure for charging. The Eve today rely on batteries and electric motors that use expensive rare earth minerals to operate. The are batteries being developed that reduce or eliminate the use of these rare earth minerals. I just read where a 17 year old, Robert Sansone’s research could pave the way for the sustainable manufacturing of electric vehicles that do not require rare-earth magnets.

Good read https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovati ... 180980550/

Now we can expect that Elon Musk will want to buy up the patent and ether kill the manufacturing of the motor or only use it in Teslas.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: EV's way more energy efficient than gasoline for cars

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Decentralized power generation. From fastcompany:
While traditional nuclear power plants are built on-site, SMRs [small modular reactors] can be built in a factory and shipped to a facility for deployment. They use smaller amounts of radioactive material, which makes them easier to cool and secure—and lessens the potential damage of a leak.
https://www.fastcompany.com/90777719/ne ... ving-to-do

The article also infers that "something is different this time" with the introduction of SMR's. Now, there is a strong climate urgency.

CDFingers
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Baio, Baio, tell me how can this be?
You arrest the girls for turning tricks, but you're scared of Staggerlee

Re: EV's way more energy efficient than gasoline for cars

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CDFingers wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:20 pm Decentralized power generation. From fastcompany:
While traditional nuclear power plants are built on-site, SMRs [small modular reactors] can be built in a factory and shipped to a facility for deployment. They use smaller amounts of radioactive material, which makes them easier to cool and secure—and lessens the potential damage of a leak.
https://www.fastcompany.com/90777719/ne ... ving-to-do

The article also infers that "something is different this time" with the introduction of SMR's. Now, there is a strong climate urgency.

CDFingers
Build them small enough to put them in cars and then you don't need batteries.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: EV's way more energy efficient than gasoline for cars

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TrueTexan wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:08 pm
CDFingers wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:17 pm
sikacz wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:14 pm
CDFingers wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:08 pm One important thing to note is how the developing world gets around, on really inefficient, sometimes two-stroke, gas engines. Little jitneys and purpose built contraptions. They're very polluting and inefficient. Developing countries need infrastructure to keep up with the challenges we see in this thread: not only must they be able to charge at home, but at work and on the road. This dovetails with other huge challenges of generation, storage, and distribution.

First, define the problem(s), one of which is wasting precious energy on heat. We haz the numbers now.

CDFingers
The solutions on the horizon like EV are for advanced nations, not developing or under developed nations. Countries like India are technologically advanced yet not developed to the extent to sustain the same level for all their people. Then there are countries that are far down the technology scale. I applaud the advancement, but let’s not be naive unless we are prepared to pay to bring all countries to our level.
I disagree because there are billions more users in the developing world than in our first world. Those users need to be sold EV's that are inexpensive and that charge quickly and cheaply. We must focus on them: they make decisions purely on cost whereas we have the luxury of choice.

CDFingers
The problem with the third world and EVs is the inexpensive vehicles and the lack infrastructure for charging. The Eve today rely on batteries and electric motors that use expensive rare earth minerals to operate. The are batteries being developed that reduce or eliminate the use of these rare earth minerals. I just read where a 17 year old, Robert Sansone’s research could pave the way for the sustainable manufacturing of electric vehicles that do not require rare-earth magnets.

Good read https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovati ... 180980550/

Now we can expect that Elon Musk will want to buy up the patent and ether kill the manufacturing of the motor or only use it in Teslas.
CDFingers, I appreciate your perspective and truly wish it could be so. As pointed out in bold inexpensive is not inexpensive. As I said unless the countries with the most subsidize those who do not I don’t see this as a quick fix. Also I would point out other technologies might be more practical considering what has already been produced, lots of conventional vehicles which might be more practical to eventually convert to hydrogen vehicles. Instead of just looking at electric vehicles as the only solution, we, the world need to look at multiple ways to get to a cleaner environment. So disagree all you want, realities govern and not idealism. The poorer nations are heavily into old tech, the transition to cleaner sources will not happen overnight. The developed countries shifting to electric will not resolve the issues faced with countries that rely on using old technology and the manufacturing base of the world to attain what they cannot produce by themselves. So if the goal is to have an ultramodern developed world and a scavenger society world on the periphery then by all means push for an electric only solution. I won’t support it anymore than I support fees imposed on those with less means on gun issues. Finally, do you really think even all of our people can afford the shift to all electric, I don’t. We don’t have a living wage. When those batteries go it’s a huge bill.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: EV's way more energy efficient than gasoline for cars

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EV's are cheaper than gas to run. The companies making renewable tech and SMR tech seek to make money. As petroleum gets more expensive, these companies are positioning themselves right in the opening of the fish weir holding huge nets. An SMR plopped 'among 250,000 rural people will just hook into the existing spaghetti that is their local infrastructure. People will order three wheeled EV's off Baidu or Amazon or where ever, and their operating costs will be fractions of what gas was. That is the driver. Not policies: profit. While neoliberals are no friends of gun owners, they can make a fuck ton of profit when they see an opening.

CDFingers
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Baio, Baio, tell me how can this be?
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Re: EV's way more energy efficient than gasoline for cars

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The discussion of transportation needs of 3rd World Countries may indeed include EV developments in China. Standards of speed and safety in US and EU do not fit all around the world. The Japanese Kei cars are an example of small, efficient little cars that would not pass crash tests here in the US but serve a role in off-highway usage on narrow, city streets. China is building and selling a many such small 4 wheeled vehicles as well as a boatload of electric 2-wheeled scooters. The potential of fast charging or battery swapping scooters that are currently being sold in China will revolutionize developing 3rd World cities. Small 2 and 4 wheeled EV’s may become a candidate for technological leaping in major African cities.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: EV's way more energy efficient than gasoline for cars

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sikacz wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:10 pm Charging needs to come down considerably, something in the range of the time it takes to go buy and drink a cup of coffee. It could be a resurgence of eat drink and drive culture!
Yes, drivers stop all the time and get gas on the way to work, that doesn't really work with an EV. EV drivers have to be very organized and remember to plug in when they get home. Right now EVs are mainly owned by the environmentally conscious and people who own their own home.
The top demographic of 2019 EV owners are middle-aged white men earning more than $100,000 annually with a college degree or higher and at least one other vehicle in their household. • 37% of Democrats and 34% of Republicans appear to view EVs positively, and a guaranteed $7,500 tax rebate could make 78% of Democrats and 71% of Republicans more likely to consider an EV during their next purchase or lease (2019).
https://www.fuelsinstitute.org/Research ... Report.pdf

Putting in a home charging station isn't cheap. https://www.motorbiscuit.com/really-cos ... g-station/

Europe made a big push for EVs, but now in the midst of the Ukraine war, they're having more and more problems getting oil and natural gas to make that electricity. Germany has even started turning on some of it's coal powered electrical plants to meet their needs.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: EV's way more energy efficient than gasoline for cars

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CDFingers wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:47 am We could guess that, but here are the deets.
Out of the 8.9 million barrels of gasoline consumed daily in the U.S. on average, only 1.8 million gallons, or approximately 20 percent, actually propel an internal combustion vehicle forward. The other 80 percent is wasted on heat and parasitic auxiliary components that draw away energy. As the world begins its shift to EV proliferation, the good news is electric vehicles are far more energy efficient on the road.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/evs-mor ... n-engines/

Faster, better, cheaper will win out every time.

CDFingers
Until range, charging times, charging locations are on par with ICE, not really going to happen. Gas still very available...People buy E Cars not because of the $ or how it 'may' help the environment, but because they are 'cool' and the neighbor bought one.
Now if fuel becomes scarce...that may swing things..Did force econoboxes in the 70s with gas shortages.

I still think a better idea is hybrid. NO need to find a cable..still gets HUGE milage(son has Accord Hybrid-55mpg or so)..and he ran out of gas once, just to see...and used trons to drive to gas station...

Re: EV's way more energy efficient than gasoline for cars

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CDFingers wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:20 pm Decentralized power generation. From fastcompany:
While traditional nuclear power plants are built on-site, SMRs [small modular reactors] can be built in a factory and shipped to a facility for deployment. They use smaller amounts of radioactive material, which makes them easier to cool and secure—and lessens the potential damage of a leak.
https://www.fastcompany.com/90777719/ne ... ving-to-do

The article also infers that "something is different this time" with the introduction of SMR's. Now, there is a strong climate urgency.

CDFingers
Yup, 'pocket nukes', self contained, very safe and efficient, very powerful.

Re: EV's way more energy efficient than gasoline for cars

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highdesert wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:19 am
sikacz wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:10 pm Charging needs to come down considerably, something in the range of the time it takes to go buy and drink a cup of coffee. It could be a resurgence of eat drink and drive culture!
Yes, drivers stop all the time and get gas on the way to work, that doesn't really work with an EV. EV drivers have to be very organized and remember to plug in when they get home. Right now EVs are mainly owned by the environmentally conscious and people who own their own home.
The top demographic of 2019 EV owners are middle-aged white men earning more than $100,000 annually with a college degree or higher and at least one other vehicle in their household. • 37% of Democrats and 34% of Republicans appear to view EVs positively, and a guaranteed $7,500 tax rebate could make 78% of Democrats and 71% of Republicans more likely to consider an EV during their next purchase or lease (2019).
https://www.fuelsinstitute.org/Research ... Report.pdf

Putting in a home charging station isn't cheap. https://www.motorbiscuit.com/really-cos ... g-station/

Europe made a big push for EVs, but now in the midst of the Ukraine war, they're having more and more problems getting oil and natural gas to make that electricity. Germany has even started turning on some of it's coal powered electrical plants to meet their needs.
Yes, at the moment a tech for those with means. We will get to a cleaner environment, but it’s going to take a bit of time. War’s don’t help. The world needs to be at peace and united. That doesn’t seem likely as factions are getting stronger and the divisions harder to mend. Good point on petroleum and other dirty fuels being a source for electricity.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: EV's way more energy efficient than gasoline for cars

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F4FEver wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:03 am Until range, charging times, charging locations are on par with ICE, not really going to happen. Gas still very available...People buy E Cars not because of the $ or how it 'may' help the environment, but because they are 'cool' and the neighbor bought one.
Now if fuel becomes scarce...that may swing things..Did force econoboxes in the 70s with gas shortages.

I still think a better idea is hybrid. NO need to find a cable..still gets HUGE milage(son has Accord Hybrid-55mpg or so)..and he ran out of gas once, just to see...and used trons to drive to gas station...
I agree on the Hybrids have been diving them ever since the Toyota Highlander Hybrid came out. We have two RAV4 XSE Hybrids now and are getting around 40 mpg. The problem with the EVs if you miscalculate and the battery juices run out you are SOL. With a Hybrid the Internal Combustion Engine Charges the batteries while you drive along with supplying power to the wheels if needed via the CVT. The RAV4 XSE might not be as fast as the hybrid (0 to 60- 6 sec.), but try to carry 8 big bags of potting soil, one big bag of fertilizer and four flats of wife’s plants along with the wife, in a Tesla .

FYI don’t try driving a Toyota Hybrid till it runs out of gas or you will be paying for a towing fee to a dealer’s service center. Going totally dry screws up the fuel pump, that is why Toyota shows E on the gas gauge you still have 2.5 gallons of gas. Unlike my Ford Pinto of many decades ago that would show 1/8 of a take and be totally dry.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: EV's way more energy efficient than gasoline for cars

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Elmo wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:25 pm This is a very useful way to look at energy alternatives.

However, there is a better solution than widespread conversion to EVs -- mass transit and reconfiguration of the economy and built enviornment to make a lot of individual travel unnecessary.
That is true as well. When I worked as an architect in Finland I came to realize city planning highly favored mass transit, bicycle and walking as a primary way to daily move people. When residential multistory buildings are designed and and built the number of parking spaces allotted is a tiny fraction of the unit count. Simply means most people will store their cars if they bother to have one in a separate garage usually within a small commute to their primary residence. People living in the suburbs naturally can store their cars on their own property, but going to the city they are often better off taking the bus or train since parking spaces are also at a minimum.
Side note for nearly 9 years I walked to work or hopped on the tram (light rail) for a few stops going and coming home from work.
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