Re: Alleged shooter at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas in custody

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DispositionMatrix wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 5:49 pm If the WSJ is to be believed, the perp was outside shooting for 12 minutes prior to entering the building.
https://archive.ph/zg8Kq

There already is significant blowback against the police for somehow not being able to get into the building into which the shooter had walked. If the heat is on law enforcement, LEAs and the unions will step up their participation in the Democrats' campaign to deflect blame onto hardware.
In other words they could have got him before he entered.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Alleged shooter at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas in custody

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tonguengroover wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:21 pm
featureless wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:46 pm The difference in the above approach is one is an enumerated right and one should be an enumerated right. Like it or not (and I don't), abortion is not in the constitution and arms are. We need to get our shit straight for sure, but restrictions on a fundamental right (for those who are not violent felons or mentally unstable) isn't it. What others have said about raising everyone up through social and medical equity programs is the way. Bans are just pissing in the wind.
The Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution provides a fundamental "right to privacy" that protects a pregnant woman's liberty to choose whether to have an abortion. Which goes hand in hand with having a gun in your home.
Maybe. I believe safe abortion must be a right but I also believe SCOTUS is about to gut its constitutional protection (and frankly, I'm not convinced their reasoning is entirely wrong, legally. Definitely wrong-headed though)). RBG (who shared the opinion on Roe`s weekness) warned us all to get it into law rather than resting on Roe. But we didn't. My point stands, but I am sympathetic to yours.

Re: Alleged shooter at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas in custody

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FrontSight wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:16 pm
highdesert wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:44 pm
Supposedly the lesson that all law enforcement learned from Columbine is you don't wait for SWAT, you go in and neutralize the shooter(s). Don't know what orders were given to its officers by Uvalde Police commanders. Hopefully the media do more digging, the British media isn't afraid.
Again, officers have no requirement to respond under the law. So it really doesn't matter what Uvalde Police commanders said...their inaction is constitutionally protected.

https://mises.org/power-market/police-h ... -yet-again



So if we can't depend on armed officers on scene, what's the solution?

Technically police are not bodyguards for ourselves and families, only prisoners enjoy that protection. Not going in to rescue innocent children won't fly in Peoria or anyplace in the US. If the families file a civil lawsuit against the police for not protecting them, it's likely to fail like in the Stoneman case.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Alleged shooter at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas in custody

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A gunman who attacked a primary school in Texas on Tuesday was able to enter the building unobstructed, police say. Texas Ranger Victor Escalon said no armed guard challenged the teenage attacker and it is unclear if the school door was even locked. Mr Escalon defended the police response amid mounting criticism of an apparent delay in confronting the gunman.
"They [didn't] make entry immediately because of the gunfire they were receiving," Mr Escalon told reporters. But an hour lapsed before the gunman was killed in a shootout at 12:45 only after US Border Patrol tactical teams arrived.
A father whose daughter died in the attack told the Associated Press news agency he had considered running into the school with bystanders out of frustration at the alleged police inaction.

One mother told the Wall Street Journal that she was briefly handcuffed, accused of impeding a police investigation, after demanding along with other parents that officers storm the building. Angeli Rose Gomez said she saw one frantic father thrown to the ground by an officer, another father pepper-sprayed and a third who was later tased. "The police were doing nothing," said Ms Gomez, who was eventually released before she said she jumped over the school fence and ran inside to rescue her two children. "They [the police] were just standing outside the fence. They weren't going in there or running anywhere."
Texas Congressman Joaquin Castro has written to the director of the FBI to ask that agents investigate the law enforcement response to the attack as it was unfolding.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61600914

Glad to hear the FBI will be in charge of the investigation.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Alleged shooter at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas in custody

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sig230 wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:26 pm
FrontSight wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:16 pm
highdesert wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:44 pm
Supposedly the lesson that all law enforcement learned from Columbine is you don't wait for SWAT, you go in and neutralize the shooter(s). Don't know what orders were given to its officers by Uvalde Police commanders. Hopefully the media do more digging, the British media isn't afraid.
Again, officers have no requirement to respond under the law. So it really doesn't matter what Uvalde Police commanders said...their inaction is constitutionally protected.

https://mises.org/power-market/police-h ... -yet-again



So if we can't depend on armed officers on scene, what's the solution?
The solution is the same that it has always been.

What needs to be done is simple.

First, get rid of all of the mega-schools, put schools back in the neighborhood and small enough that every teacher knows every student by name and no class has more than a dozen kids. But that means no big football stadium. And smaller classes mean more teachers and that means higher taxes.

Second, start active discipline at the earliest stages. If a child is a bully or disruptive then the child gets sent home and provided true counseling. But there is no one at home and both parents (when there is two parents) are working and won't get paid so can't come home.

Third federalize drugs and provide them for free in neighborhood health clinics. But the WAR on DRUGS!

Fourth enact universal health care. But if that happens the drug companies will all stop researching cures. After all no other country makes medicines.

Fifth stop glorifying violence and shooting. But John Wick and Reacher...

Sixth, bring back shooting sports in the middle and upper grades. What, teach kids to shoot?

Seventh, support unionization and narrowing the gap between rich and poor. Make a two income family a choice rather than necessity. But that's SOCIALISM!


And understand that it took about fifty years to screw stuff up this much so it will take another half century or more to fix it.
It would be a start.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Alleged shooter at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas in custody

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sig230 wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:26 pm
FrontSight wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:16 pm
highdesert wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:44 pm
Supposedly the lesson that all law enforcement learned from Columbine is you don't wait for SWAT, you go in and neutralize the shooter(s). Don't know what orders were given to its officers by Uvalde Police commanders. Hopefully the media do more digging, the British media isn't afraid.
Again, officers have no requirement to respond under the law. So it really doesn't matter what Uvalde Police commanders said...their inaction is constitutionally protected.

https://mises.org/power-market/police-h ... -yet-again



So if we can't depend on armed officers on scene, what's the solution?
The solution is the same that it has always been.

What needs to be done is simple.

First, get rid of all of the mega-schools, put schools back in the neighborhood and small enough that every teacher knows every student by name and no class has more than a dozen kids. But that means no big football stadium. And smaller classes mean more teachers and that means higher taxes.

Second, start active discipline at the earliest stages. If a child is a bully or disruptive then the child gets sent home and provided true counseling. But there is no one at home and both parents (when there is two parents) are working and won't get paid so can't come home.

Third federalize drugs and provide them for free in neighborhood health clinics. But the WAR on DRUGS!

Fourth enact universal health care. But if that happens the drug companies will all stop researching cures. After all no other country makes medicines.

Fifth stop glorifying violence and shooting. But John Wick and Reacher...

Sixth, bring back shooting sports in the middle and upper grades. What, teach kids to shoot?

Seventh, support unionization and narrowing the gap between rich and poor. Make a two income family a choice rather than necessity. But that's SOCIALISM!


And understand that it took about fifty years to screw stuff up this much so it will take another half century or more to fix it.

Stellar list. Needs to be distributed far and wide. Might even be better to limit the share to three or four items.

CDFingers
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If I had a gun for every ace I've drawn
I could arm a town the size of Zhytomyr

Re: Alleged shooter at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas in custody

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Apparently, the cops were busy cuffing and tazing the parents while they waited. For? A plain clothes board agent allegedly took the shooter down after arriving 40ish minutes into the affair. What the fuck were the cops waiting for? And they kept parents from taking action while waiting. Fuck.

Regarding gun control, the cops have no duty to protect you (or your children, even at school, even with an active shooter). Do we really want the only ones armed to be the ones with the authority to arrest you for insisting they go save your children? I remain unconvinced that waiting for LEO to save the day is not always the best plan. What a fucking mess. Apologies, I am angry and anguished for those kids.

Re: Alleged shooter at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas in custody

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Thirty short years ago, I would be dead now.

A federalized drug system never would have produced the drug I take now, that keeps me alive. It wasn't here thirty years ago. The only reason spend millions looking for miracle drugs is the billions you can make if you find one. When you buy drugs, you're not paying for the powder pressed into pills.

That's only one. Your list is full of other, equally obvious unintended consequences. As a result, it is far too narrow to be effective.

Re: Alleged shooter at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas in custody

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featureless wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 10:14 pm Apparently, the cops were busy cuffing and tazing the parents while they waited. For? A plain clothes board agent allegedly took the shooter down after arriving 40ish minutes into the affair. What the fuck were the cops waiting for? And they kept parents from taking action while waiting. Fuck.

Regarding gun control, the cops have no duty to protect you (or your children, even at school, even with an active shooter). Do we really want the only ones armed to be the ones with the authority to arrest you for insisting they go save your children? I remain unconvinced that waiting for LEO to save the day is not always the best plan. What a fucking mess. Apologies, I am angry and anguished for those kids.
I share your anger, police may be under no obligation to protect adults, but children are almost totally dependent on adults. We don't allow children to have firearms especially not in schools and at their age, 9-10 year old. If the local police dept isn't large enough, where was the sheriffs dept to help breach the classroom door and free those children? Looks like law enforcement is circling the wagons.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Alleged shooter at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas in custody

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highdesert wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 7:08 am
featureless wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 10:14 pm Apparently, the cops were busy cuffing and tazing the parents while they waited. For? A plain clothes board agent allegedly took the shooter down after arriving 40ish minutes into the affair. What the fuck were the cops waiting for? And they kept parents from taking action while waiting. Fuck.

Regarding gun control, the cops have no duty to protect you (or your children, even at school, even with an active shooter). Do we really want the only ones armed to be the ones with the authority to arrest you for insisting they go save your children? I remain unconvinced that waiting for LEO to save the day is not always the best plan. What a fucking mess. Apologies, I am angry and anguished for those kids.
I share your anger, police may be under no obligation to protect adults, but children are almost totally dependent on adults. We don't allow children to have firearms especially not in schools and at their age, 9-10 year old. If the local police dept isn't large enough, where was the sheriffs dept to help breach the classroom door and free those children? Looks like law enforcement is circling the wagons.
Police are under no legal obligation to protect anyone in the regular performance of their duties. It might be a LEO's job to protect, but it's not a legal requirement. So the LEO could be fired for not doing his or her job but could not be prosecuted successfully.

Re: Alleged shooter at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas in custody

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Yesterday, the New York Times tried to sic Biden on Daniel Defense since the shooter had used a DDM4 V7 to commit murder and the company had received assistance via the Paycheck Protection Program (PPP).
https://archive.ph/smyS2
Like many other small businesses, several firearm manufacturers received aid via PPP. Looks like this is going to be another avenue of attack for the civilian disarmament lobby against companies that build and sell firearms or otherwise don't meet a required standard of ideological purity, regardless of whether the administration takes up the cause.

Re: Alleged shooter at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas in custody

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INVICTVS138 wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 3:41 pm
AdministrativeReload wrote:Here is Hero of the Party Beto O'Rourke interrupting someone else's press conference to make it about him. This is what we can come to expect from Democratic politicians seeking political gain from this issue.

Will the staffer who thought this up for Beto get that promotion he was bucking for?

Why is this an "alleged" shooter anyway? Is there any question?
He’s such an attention whore, disgustingly so. He’s a terrible candidate for TX gov. That fascist Abbott is going to trounce him with these antics. “Hell yeah we are gonna take your AR-15.”

When are the TX Dems going to run a Pro gun candidate? They must love losing and choosing party orthodoxy over all else.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The 'press conference', with abbot surrounded by like minded lemmings was 'attention whore 101'.
"Thought and prayers and sorry, these are inevitable, NOTHING to be done...please lets not talk about my pisspoor elec grid, stupid border antics...lets go buy some more guns..."

Re: Alleged shooter at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas in custody

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sikacz wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 9:50 pm
featureless wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 9:08 pm If responding officers waited 40 to 60 minutes... Jesus. How many shot kids bled to death?
If they had an opportunity to stop him before he entered the building then think of how few would have died.
If the farging DOOR was locked as well...this, along with the LEOs standing around all tactial-ed up, w/o doing shit as well. I guess they were waiting for an unarmed black kid so they could do their 'cop-shit'.

Re: Alleged shooter at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas in custody

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DispositionMatrix wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 7:41 am
highdesert wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 7:08 am
featureless wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 10:14 pm Apparently, the cops were busy cuffing and tazing the parents while they waited. For? A plain clothes board agent allegedly took the shooter down after arriving 40ish minutes into the affair. What the fuck were the cops waiting for? And they kept parents from taking action while waiting. Fuck.

Regarding gun control, the cops have no duty to protect you (or your children, even at school, even with an active shooter). Do we really want the only ones armed to be the ones with the authority to arrest you for insisting they go save your children? I remain unconvinced that waiting for LEO to save the day is not always the best plan. What a fucking mess. Apologies, I am angry and anguished for those kids.
I share your anger, police may be under no obligation to protect adults, but children are almost totally dependent on adults. We don't allow children to have firearms especially not in schools and at their age, 9-10 year old. If the local police dept isn't large enough, where was the sheriffs dept to help breach the classroom door and free those children? Looks like law enforcement is circling the wagons.
Police are under no legal obligation to protect anyone in the regular performance of their duties. It might be a LEO's job to protect, but it's not a legal requirement. So the LEO could be fired for not doing his or her job but could not be prosecuted successfully.

If the families sued in a court of law based on the police duty to protect, they would lose based on two SCOTUS decisions, DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services and Castle Rock v. Gonzales. They could try suing the city for failure to adequately supervise the police or another theory. The police however have already lost in the Court of Public Opinion.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Alleged shooter at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas in custody

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Listened to some of the press conference in Uvalde, it was more like a feeding frenzy. The explanation for the delay in breaching the classroom was that the incident commander decided that it was no longer an active shooter situation, but a barricade situation. He felt that they needed the specialized resources of the Border Patrol team before breaching. The incident commander was the chief of the consolidated school district police force. The ranger admitted that it was the wrong decision, it was still an active shooter situation.
https://www.ucisd.net/Page/2120
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Alleged shooter at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas in custody

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A big ol' black eye for TX here by extension. One little town calls in other police who do things too late. I'm sure we'll see dozens of chicken cop memes. Hard to decide on a better course of action from my perspective beyond better health screening. But there has to be actions to be taken once a person is identified as too violent or too unstable to buy guns. Not to happen in TX.

CDFingers
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If I had a gun for every ace I've drawn
I could arm a town the size of Zhytomyr

Re: Alleged shooter at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas in custody

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CDFingers wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 2:38 pm A big ol' black eye for TX here by extension. One little town calls in other police who do things too late. I'm sure we'll see dozens of chicken cop memes. Hard to decide on a better course of action from my perspective beyond better health screening. But there has to be actions to be taken once a person is identified as too violent or too unstable to buy guns. Not to happen in TX.

CDFingers
I do agree. The timeline is bad as well. In theory there was time and opportunity to stop this individual before entering the building. Perhaps even stopping him from buying guns to begin with. We are not going to ban our way out of this, it has to be a solution that looks at the underlying reasons behind these types of acts.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Alleged shooter at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas in custody

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The person who briefed at the press conference was the director of the Texas DPS. In the chaotic conference he kept stressing that they were looking for the facts. The shooter Ramos entered the school at 11:33 am and he was neutralized at 12:58 pm. Ramos entered the school after a teacher propped a door open so she could get her mobile phone from her car.
Michael Dorn, executive director of Safe Havens International, which works to make schools safer, cautioned that it’s hard to get a clear understanding of the facts soon after a shooting.

“The information we have a couple of weeks after an event is usually quite different than what we get in the first day or two. And even that is usually quite inaccurate,” Dorn said. For catastrophic events, “you’re usually eight to 12 months out before you really have a decent picture.”
https://apnews.com/article/uvalde-schoo ... 026cedc171
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Alleged shooter at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas in custody

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highdesert wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 5:15 pm The person who briefed at the press conference was the director of the Texas DPS. In the chaotic conference he kept stressing that they were looking for the facts. The shooter Ramos entered the school at 11:33 am and he was neutralized at 12:58 pm. Ramos entered the school after a teacher propped a door open so she could get her mobile phone from her car.
Michael Dorn, executive director of Safe Havens International, which works to make schools safer, cautioned that it’s hard to get a clear understanding of the facts soon after a shooting.

“The information we have a couple of weeks after an event is usually quite different than what we get in the first day or two. And even that is usually quite inaccurate,” Dorn said. For catastrophic events, “you’re usually eight to 12 months out before you really have a decent picture.”
https://apnews.com/article/uvalde-schoo ... 026cedc171
That’s one dumb ass teacher.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

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