Re: Oath Keepers leader charged with seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6 insurrection

27
As the politicians say, I'm "cautiously optimistic". You've got to look at cases from all sides, not just the side you're cheering for. Washington is like no other place in the US, they have a US district court, a US court of appeals and the US Supreme Court all within the district. One reason I've always believed that the US Supreme Court should sit regularly in other places in the US, another reason to have younger justices. The CA Supreme Court sits in Sacramento (state capital), San Francisco and Los Angeles.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Oath Keepers leader charged with seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6 insurrection

29
sig230 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:50 pm What does US History show?

We have been able to get Seditious Conspiracy convictions for Muslim Clerics and Puerto Ricans, but not for God Old Boy Wasps.
Yep!!! Bundy got away with it. The Klan got away with it in the '80's. But not them darkies; we won't have any of that!!
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Oath Keepers leader charged with seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6 insurrection

30
There is a new wrinkle not common to the previous examples. Because of where they were and what instruments were already in place, there exists a digital record of the phones and texts among all those folks who are so comfortable with their phones and on line. There are records. And now the rat finks are turning on each other as the AG moves up the food chain. Likely it wall take until, oh, say, November.

Ooops for the hapless party of treason. May they die a public death as a party, suffering fewer and fewer voters each cycle who want to be branded stupid traitors. Ugly but effective.

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Oath Keepers leader charged with seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6 insurrection

31
'Hanging his own clients': George Conway buries Oath Keepers' attorney over train wreck CNN interview

On CNN Friday, conservative attorney George Conway tore into the legal defense of Stewart Rhodes, the Oath Keepers leader charged with seditious conspiracy for his alleged role in the effort to violently overturn the 2020 presidential election.

"We should note Stewart Rhodes entered a not guilty plea in court," said anchor Jake Tapper. "I want to play part of the defense from Rhodes that came from his attorney who spoke to CNN today. Take a listen."

He then played a clip of attorney Jon Moseley telling CNN earlier on Friday that his clients had a "somewhat fanciful idea they thought the president was going to call them up under the Insurrection Act, which I don't understand but they were fixated on — the idea that Trump was going to activate them as a militia under the Insurrection Act."

"What do you make of that defense, George?" asked Tapper.

"He's hanging his own clients with the rope that he's dangling," said Conway. "He's basically saying, they were there with the idea — conspiring to use force, because there's no legal way that Donald Trump could have authorized them to use force on behalf of himself in order to maintain power legally. So it's just, I mean — the fact that he's, you know, he's admitting what's the core element of the indictment, which is that these guys were stashing weapons away in a motel in Ballston, right across the river from Washington, and had a quick reaction force, a fake military jargon to bring these people across the river and to commit violence. It was a conspiracy to do — to commit sedition by force, which is exactly what the statute prohibits."
https://www.rawstory.com/george-conway-capitol-riot/

Going for an insanity plea.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: Oath Keepers leader charged with seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6 insurrection

32
highdesert wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:10 am Braver argues that rebellion or insurrection is a better charge.
Agreed. Sedition charges are extremely broad and they WILL be used against left wing activists in the future, because prosecutorial discretion exists.

Two points remain. Convicion on the specific charges of rebellion or insurrection nail the door shut on 14th Amendment prohibitions for holding office.

Of the 11 charged here with seditious conspiracy, two are cooperating with the feds. Does anyone remember the number of eyewitnesses the Constitution requires for a treason conviction? I seem to remember it's more than one but less than three. Not sure how eyepatches affect the count.

Re: Oath Keepers leader charged with seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6 insurrection

33
wings wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:29 pm
highdesert wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:10 am Braver argues that rebellion or insurrection is a better charge.
Agreed. Sedition charges are extremely broad and they WILL be used against left wing activists in the future, because prosecutorial discretion exists.

Two points remain. Conviction on the specific charges of rebellion or insurrection nail the door shut on 14th Amendment prohibitions for holding office.

Of the 11 charged here with seditious conspiracy, two are cooperating with the feds. Does anyone remember the number of eyewitnesses the Constitution requires for a treason conviction? I seem to remember it's more than one but less than three. Not sure how eyepatches affect the count.
No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitutio ... n%20court.

You're right, the next Portland, OR riots or something similar, a federal prosecutor could charge suspects with sedition. It's a double edge sword.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Oath Keepers leader charged with seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6 insurrection

34
Oath Keeper sedition indictments are an 'ominous sign' for Donald Trump: former federal prosecutor

Appearing on MSNBC early Saturday morning, former federal prosecutor Glenn Kirschner claimed the seditious conspiracy charges filed against eleven members of the Oath Keepers pararamilitary organization on Thursday should worry Donald Trump and former advisor Steve Bannon.

Speaking with host Lindsey Reiser, Glenn Kirschner was asked if the rarely-filed sedition charges would have a ripple effect that couldswamp the former president.

According to the former prosecutor, there was a direct link between the Oath Keeper's action on Jan 6th and Trump's comments that could come back to haunt the former president.

"It's really important because when you read the details of this 48-page indictment, it has echoes of what Steve Bannon said in the run-up to January 6th," Kirschner began. "You know: 'it will be swift, it will be moving, it will be unlike anything we have ever seen before.' He was exactly right. So doesn't that raise the question, what did he know?"

"But for Donald Trump, I think the parallels are even more dramatic with respect to Donald Trump's statements and conduct, when we compare it to what we see in this indictment," he continued. " For example, why did the Oath Keepers choose January 6th to come to the Capitol? Because Donald Trump said, 'come to D.C.. on January 6th, we'll be wild.' Why did they name their communications channel, the 'Stop the Steal' channel? Well, because Donald Trump incessantly tweeted out, 'stop the steal.'"

"Why did they march on the Capitol after the rally? Because Donald Trump said, 'now we're going to the Capitol, and I'll be right there with you,'" he continued. "Why did they, quote, 'fight like hell' once they got to the Capitol? Because Donald Trump said 'if you don't fight like hell you won't have a country anymore.' And finally, why did they view Mike Pence as the enemy? Because Donald Trump, on January 6th, tweeted, and I quote, 'Mike Pence didn't do what he should have done to protect our country and our constitution.'"

"You know what," he concluded. "Donald Trump runs through this 48-page indictment and I think that's an ominous sign of things to come."
https://www.rawstory.com/donald-trump-oath-keepers/
MAGA lawmakers likely ‘alarmed’ by Oath Keepers indictment as Jan. 6 probe ‘goes up the ladder’

Some Republican members of Congress undoubtedly were alarmed by Thursday's indictment of Oath Keepers founder Stewart Rhodes, because it signals that the Department of Justice's Jan. 6 probe won't end with the "schmoes" who stormed the Capitol, according to former GOP strategist Steve Schmidt.

Appearing on MSNBC on Friday, the Lincoln Project co-founder was asked by host Nicole Wallace why he thinks Fox News "feels compelled to defend seditious insurrection."

"The reason they're doing it I think is the most obvious one — for money," Schmidt responded. "There is a billion-dollar audience that's out there that can now be more easily imprisoned intellectually, algorithmically, where they are consigned to these information silos, where a community forms."

Schmidt added that, especially during the pandemic, many Americans became lonely and began searching for a sense of community.

"What spews forth from Fox New trickles down to the Facebook posts and the chat rooms, and to the level where this fills people's feeds within their groups, and they have a community who have opted out of reality," he said. "And the people who are responsible for it aren't the victims of misinformation. It's the people who are peddling the lies and the BS."

But that is precisely what's so significant about the Oath Keepers indictment and the ongoing investigations of the Capitol insurrection, according to Schmidt.

"In American society over the last 20 years, in a way that has destabilized American democracy, all of the accountability we have seen has been inflicted at the bottom rung of the ladder," he said. "A great example of this is the economic crisis in 2009. Tens of millions of families lost their homes, lost their mortgages. What Wall Street banker went to jail? The answer is none of them."

"So what we see in this prosecution is that no, it's not going to just be the schmo who invaded the Capitol and did whatever desecration," he added. "It's going to be the leaders of the paramilitary movement, it's going to be the leaders of the extremist movement, that this is going to go up the ladder, and that's a rare change in American society and culture over the last 20 years, and no doubt one that is alarming to a lot of members of Congress and other people who think their positions of power immunize them from accountability, even when it's the most grievous sins you can commit against the republic."
https://www.rawstory.com/donald-trump-2656410681/

It would totally amaze me that any of the people further up the food chain would be prosecuted. The movers and shakers of the right or left will let Trump be the one to let hang out to dry. He has made to many of the the background leaders pissed off.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: Oath Keepers leader charged with seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6 insurrection

35
The leader of the Oath Keepers militia group, who was indicted Thursday on a series of charges including seditious conspiracy in connection with the Jan. 6 assault on the U.S. Capitol, made his first appearance before a judge Friday in a federal courtroom in Texas.

Stewart Rhodes, a former Army paratrooper and graduate of Yale Law School, could spend decades behind bars if convicted on all five federal counts he faces -- including the most serious seditious conspiracy charge, which carries a maximum sentence of 20 years in prison.

A lawyer for Rhodes told ABC News Friday that the allegations against Rhodes were "lies," and said that no members of the Oath Keepers ever "planned or conspired to attack the Capitol."

In his Friday court appearance, Rhodes responded "Yes" when asked by Magistrate Judge Kimberly Priest Johnson if he understood the charges against him. He then waived his right to have the full indictment read aloud.

Prosecutors asked that Rhodes be detained while he is awaiting trial, and the judge set a detention hearing for Jan. 20. Rhodes will remain in custody until then.

The indictment of Rhodes, along with 10 other alleged members of the Oath Keepers, signals a significant escalation in the Justice Department's sprawling investigation of the Jan. 6, 2021, attack and its prosecution of members of the far-right Oath Keepers militia group, described by prosecutors as a "large but loosely organized collection of individuals" who "explicitly focus on recruiting current and former military, law enforcement, and first-responder personnel."

In their 48-page indictment, investigators chronicled in detail Rhodes' alleged communications with members of the group over private and encrypted apps, and their alleged accumulation of heavy weaponry and tactical gear that the group is accused of storing just outside Washington at a hotel in Virginia, where on Jan. 6 prosecutors say a so-called "Quick Reaction Force" of militia members waited on standby in case they were called into the city.

Nine of those charged in Thursday's indictment had been previously charged in connection with the Jan. 6 attack as part of what was already the Justice Department's largest and most complex conspiracy case tied to the insurrection.

In addition to Rhodes, 63-year-old Edward Vallejo of Arizona was arrested in Phoenix on Thursday and also charged with seditious conspiracy. Vallejo was allegedly part of the "Quick Reaction Force" that was lying in wait at the Virginia hotel.

After the riot, Rhodes and Vallejo allegedly met up at a restaurant where they "celebrated their attack" and discussed "next steps," according to the indictment. Vallejo allegedly sent a message to a Signal chat group the morning after Jan. 6 where he discussed making a "recon" trip to the Capitol to probe the "defense line" put up by law enforcement in the wake of the attack, court papers said.

Vallejo also made his first appearance before a magistrate judge in Phoenix on Friday afternoon, where a public defender representing him said he plans to plead not guilty to all charges against him. The judge set a detention hearing for next Thursday as the Justice Department seeks to keep Vallejo behind bars pending further legal proceedings in his case.

The deployment of the rarely-used seditious conspiracy charge will pose a major test for the Justice Department in its investigation into the Capitol attack and the prosecution of Rhodes as the founder and self-described leader of the Oath Keepers.
John Sandweg, a former acting general counsel at the Department of Homeland Security, told ABC News that Thursday's indictment "confirms that the attack on the Capitol was not just an impulsive act, but was part of a premeditated conspiracy to forcibly steal the levers of power."

"It also demonstrates that, while much of the focus has been on the prosecution of those on lesser charges related to storming the Capitol, DOJ has been actively investigating the root causes of the attack," he said. "The question remains how far up the food chain will the rest of the investigation lead, but this indictment significantly ups the ante."
https://abcnews.go.com/US/oath-keepers- ... d=82272182
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Oath Keepers leader charged with seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6 insurrection

37
Not could. Will.

The law is overly broad and conviction rates have been abysmal over the years, but only because they're putting right wingers in front of juries of their peers.
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.
I'm thinking of all the cases where antinuclear protesters chained themselves to the gates of test sites, or Native groups lie down in front of bulldozers preparing the ground for pipelines, and so on.

Best thing about these federal cases is getting to try them in DC. A change of venue is guaranteed exoneration for these nutters.

Re: Oath Keepers leader charged with seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6 insurrection

38
wings wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:34 pm Not could. Will.

The law is overly broad and conviction rates have been abysmal over the years, but only because they're putting right wingers in front of juries of their peers.
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.
I'm thinking of all the cases where antinuclear protesters chained themselves to the gates of test sites, or Native groups lie down in front of bulldozers preparing the ground for pipelines, and so on.

Best thing about these federal cases is getting to try them in DC. A change of venue is guaranteed exoneration for these nutters.
Since the crimes were committed in the District...District Grand Juries tend to be totally unsympathetic to violent right-wingers.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Oath Keepers leader charged with seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6 insurrection

39
Trials normally take place where the alleged crime was committed, in this case DC. The defense could request a change of venue, but odds are it would more likely be reassigned to northern Virginia than rural West Virginia.

Wings is right and I'm thinking of border protesters who could end up being tried in Del Rio, TX or Brownsville, TX or federal courthouses in southern NM or AZ. But we never know, Amon and Ryan Bundy were exonerated in liberal Portland and Cliven Bundy in liberal/moderate Las Vegas.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest