Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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Yeah, that's a freaking dangerous business. My son's job is an old west gunfight reenactor in Virginia City... His job gives me even more gray hair. Some of the other actors he works with are sharp as a bowling ball. And his company doesn't have the best safety record.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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Oldschool wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:37 pm I think there is a strong argument to stop using firearms in movies. There is no reason not to use replications that can not be made to fire projectiles at all.

Trying to safety ignore all the firearms safety rules has a bad history and is a bad premise.
Bingo. Yet California, for all it's gun control efforts allows exemptions for the industry. Weird.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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We keep mentioning California and their laws the accident happen in New Mexico which is a whole different ballgame. I don't know about New Mexico laws, but they do a lot of filming in Texas and the state here has I don't care what you do as long as you bring us money.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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lurker wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:58 pm
FrontSight wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:38 pm
lurker wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:58 am i can imagine no reason for there to be live ammo on a movie set, much less loaded into a firearm. ok, maybe on a security guard.
with automatic weapons though.
now you're really scaring me :yikes:
Even most handheld automatic and semi automatic weapons can be fitted with Blank Firing adaptors that allows the weapon to cycle like it does with live ammo. Same thing we used in High School Jr. ROTC to get the M1 rifles to shoot semi auto with blanks.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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TrueTexan wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:20 pm We keep mentioning California and their laws the accident happen in New Mexico which is a whole different ballgame. I don't know about New Mexico laws, but they do a lot of filming in Texas and the state here has I don't care what you do as long as you bring us money.
You're correct, of course. The mention was that CA finds the movie industry responsible, at least moreso than us little citizens.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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The New York Times subtitle of the article I posted on the previous page.
Safety protocols for firearms on set are well established and straight forward, and injuries of any kind are rare.
Cut corners on safety anywhere and people can be injured or killed.


Most dangerous jobs:

Jobs with highest number of work-related deaths in 2019

Transportation and material moving: 1,481
Construction and extraction: 1.066
Service: 762
Installation, maintenance and repair: 438
Management, business, financial operations: 409

Fatal work injuries by event

Transportation incidents: 2,122
Falls, slips, trips: 880
Violence and other injuries by people or animals (includes homicides and suicides): 841
Contact with objects and equipment: 732
Exposure to harmful substances or environment (includes substance overdoses): 642

Jobs with highest death rate per 100,000 full-time equivalent workers

Fishing and hunting: 145 per 100,000
Logging: 68.9 per 100,000
Aircraft pilots and flight engineers: 61.8 per 100,000
Roofers: 54 per 100,000
Construction: 40 per 100,000

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/24/business ... index.html

A lot more deaths related to transportation like motorcycles, cars, trucks...than movie set deaths.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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Detectives Find Loose, Boxed Ammo In Fanny Pack On 'Rust' Set

Detectives found loose and boxed ammunition, some of it in a fanny pack, at the New Mexico movie set of “Rust” after the fatal shooting of the Western’s cinematographer, according to a police search warrant inventory.

Three black revolvers and nine spent shell casings also were collected, according to the list filed with the Santa Fe Magistrates Court and released Monday.

The inventory adds no new specifics about the prop-gun shooting death of Halyna Hutchins by actor Alec Baldwin during a rehearsal Thursday with what Baldwin told authorities he thought was an unloaded pistol. But the scattered ammunition suggests a disorganized system for maintaining a dangerous prop.

Typically, ammunition would be kept in a single labeled box, veteran professional armorer Mike Tristano told The New York Times. “The fact that there is loose ammunition and casings raises questions about the organization of the armory department,” he said.

The police inventory didn’t specify whether what it labeled as “ammo” included live or dummy bullets, or blank cartridges.

Hutchins was killed by a “live single round,” The Los Angeles Times has reported. A “live” round on a movie set refers to a gun being loaded with some material, which could be a blank, that’s ready for filming, the Times noted.

The search warrant inventory listed two boxes of “ammo,” “loose ammo and boxes” and “a fanny pack w/ammo,” Reuters reported.

A previous police affidavit said first assistant director Dave Halls called out “cold gun” — meaning it was unloaded and safe — when he handed a pistol to Baldwin before the fatal shooting.

Baldwin was practicing drawing the weapon and pointing it at the camera when it fired, wounding Hutchins and director Joel Souza, witnesses told investigators. Hutchins was later pronounced dead. Souza is recovering after hospital treatment.

Halls had been accused in the past of unsafe practices. He was fired in 2019 from the set of the film “Freedom’s Path” after a crew member suffered a minor injury when a gun unexpectedly discharged, CNN reported Monday.

Before last week’s shooting, “Rust” camera operators had walked off the set to protest working conditions, including concerns about gun safety, the LA Times reported.

Five days before Hutchins was killed, Baldwin’s stunt double accidentally fired two live rounds after being told that the weapon didn’t have any ammunition in it, the newspaper reported, citing two crew members.

Investigators “are looking at everything that should have been followed, from safety standards on down,” Juan Rios, spokesperson for the Santa Fe Sheriff’s Department, said Monday.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/rust-al ... 111a5b90e8

There is no excuse for stuff like this. Who owned the fanny pack? As we all know the saying that holds true but is only repeated after something like this happens. “Safety is job one” I spent time working in hospital as a member of the safety committee. It was shown time and time again that accidents were normally caused by a person violating the safety rules. We heard all sorts of excuses, but none held up why they didn’t follow the rules.

My dad in his military career severed on many accident safety boards and he said the same thing almost every time the cause was a result of not following the safety rules.

Unfortunately in this case it caused someone to lose the life and another to be injured.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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CDFingers wrote:
lurker wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:58 am i can imagine no reason for there to be live ammo on a movie set, much less loaded into a firearm. ok, maybe on a security guard.
That's my exact thought.

CDFingers
I’m sure the security guard wouldn’t have ammo compatibility with a .45 colt or .44-40. No excuses. Follow the 4 rules.


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Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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The Gabby Petito - Brian Laundrie tragedy is over, so this is the media's new feeding frenzy and the anti-gunners are helping to stir it up. Instead of condemning guns on TV and film sets, they should be going after production companies that skimp on safety. Unions are big on safety, they want to protect their members along with insurance companies who don't want to pay out over preventable negligence.

Thousands of films and TV episodes have been shot with real firearms and no one was killed. Everyone wants the safest environment on a set, but accidental deaths will probably never get to zero whether it's stunts, car chases or firearms.

Read that the NM OSHA agency is now investigating this incident.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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This is the full NY Times article that TT referenced above.
The Santa Fe County district attorney said on Tuesday that she was not ruling out criminal charges in last week’s fatal shooting on a film set. The actor Alec Baldwin was rehearsing with a gun that he had been told did not contain live ammunition when it went off, killing the film’s cinematographer and wounding its director.

“We haven’t ruled out anything,” the district attorney, Mary Carmack-Altwies, said in a telephone interview. “Everything at this point, including criminal charges, is on the table.”

Ms. Carmack-Altwies said that the investigation was focusing on ballistics in an effort to determine what kind of round was in the gun that killed Halyna Hutchins, the cinematographer — and who had placed the ammunition in the gun.

“There were an enormous amount of bullets on this set, and we need to find out what kinds they were,” Ms. Carmack-Altwies said. Detectives said that they recovered three revolvers, spent casings and ammunition — in boxes, loose and in a fanny pack — while executing a search warrant on the set, according to an inventory of the items released on Monday. The inventory did not specify what kind of ammunition was found on the set.

Ms. Carmack-Altwies took issue with descriptions of the firearm used in the incident as “prop-gun,” saying that the terminology, which is used in some of the court documents related to the case, could give the misleading impression that it was not a real gun.

“It was a legit gun,” she said, without naming specifically what kind of firearm was used. “It was an antique-era appropriate gun.”

Detectives from the Santa Fe County Sheriff’s Office are proceeding carefully with the investigation, she said, citing the large number of witnesses and the need to methodically collect ballistics and forensics evidence.

The shooting occurred on Thursday on the set of a church where Mr. Baldwin was rehearsing a scene for “Rust,” a Western where he plays an outlaw. According to affidavits included in applications for search warrants, Dave Halls, an assistant director on the set, had gone outside the church and taken the gun off a cart, where it had been placed by the film’s armorer, Hannah Gutierrez-Reed. Mr. Halls handed the gun to Mr. Baldwin, who was rehearsing inside the church, according to the affidavit, and said it was a “cold gun,” indicating that it contained no live rounds and was safe for Mr. Baldwin to handle.

Mr. Baldwin then rehearsed a scene that involved “cross drawing” a revolver and pointing it toward the camera lens, according to the affidavit, when the gun fired — striking Ms. Hutchins in the chest and killing her, and hitting the director of the film, Joel Souza, in the shoulder, wounding him.

Detectives are still interviewing people who were on the set, Ms. Carmack-Altwies said. “It’s probably weeks, if not months, of follow-up investigation that we’re going to need to get to the point of charging.”

Ms. Carmack-Altwies said that she was aware of news reports suggesting that crew members had used guns with live ammunition for target practice hours before the fatal shooting, but said that the reports were “unconfirmed.”

Mamie Mitchell, the script supervisor who called 911 after the shooting, has hired Gloria Allred as her lawyer, according to a statement from Ms. Allred. The statement said they would be conducting their own investigation into the incident “because there are many unanswered questions.”

Ms. Carmack-Altwies, who is expected to speak with reporters on Wednesday morning at a news conference along with Sheriff Adan Mendoza, of Santa Fe County, said that this incident figured among the most challenging cases in Santa Fe County in recent memory.

“We have complex cases all the time,” she said. “But this kind of complex case, with these kinds of prominent people, no.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/26/movi ... ldwin.html


Hopefully we get more from the DA and Sheriff's press conference tomorrow.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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I’m glad the district attorney agrees with my objection to the use of the term “prop gun”. It’s a real gun not a toy. Misuse of terms is not helpful. Likewise I’d object to using the term “malfunction” or “misfire” to name a few more, but there’s more. Likewise the anti gun media latches onto these terms the same way it latches onto the terms “assault weapon” or “weapons of war” in relation to semiautomatics like the AR-15. Being accurate is important and so is being truthful. In this instance a real vintage revolver was used, it was supposed to be in the possession of an armorer and was supposed to have a specific controlled chain of possession. Yes, it was used as a prop, but it was a real gun used as a prop and should not be referred to as a “prop gun”. The term obscures and diminishes what the object is, a real gun on a movie stage setting.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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I'm not losing sleep over the words "prop gun".

It was a gun. It was also a prop. Both words are true in this instance. As has been noted, accuracy is important, and both words are accurate in this instance. The fact that it was a completely functional gun doesn't matter-- they do the same thing in movies with vehicles. I don't care if someone assigns random meanings and agendas to those words and concludes they are somehow inaccurate, because I don't give either vocabulary or English lessons. (This paragraph excepted. You're welcome.) I care even less about mistakes people working in the media make.

There is one, glaring issue here that trumps everything else-- (god, that sounds bad these days... but I digress.) the fact that Baldwin pulled a trigger and a woman died.

Talking about the armorer, the producers or the man on the moon is like blaming a passenger by claiming their backseat driving caused an accident.

The SHOOTER.

The man who pulled the trigger.

I don't care what people told him, I don't care what industry norms are, I don't care who thought they were in charge. In the final seconds, the one with a finger on a trigger is the one in charge of the gun. That is the one who bears all moral responsibility.

That is the one, and, it seems, the only one, to hold responsible.

If I were Baldwin, and had had his experiences with weapons, including this one, I'd be anti-gun, too. I'd be scared to death of them.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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If actors aren't explicitly TAUGHT the 4 rules, especially Rule 1, you cannot reasonably expect them to intuit them by osmosis. Yet, clearly, it is routinely expected in their business that when an actor (or anyone) is told that a gun is "cold" they are expected to take that as gospel AND NOT CHECK FOR THEMSELVES! I also expect that if every actor did that EVERY time as Rule 1 calls for, the director and producer would flame him/her in front of everyone, screaming "YOU'RE COSTING US VALUABLE LIGHT, TIME, AND MONEY! JUST PICK UP THE DAMN GUN AND DO AS YOUR TOLD!!!!"
To blame Baldwin for following Industry Standards seems utterly inappropriate, unless something else comes out.

Obviously, this MUST change. Clearly, the I.A.T.S.E. members were fully aware of the safety vs unsafe practices going on. But bosses HATE safety regulations, no matter how big or small the company is. Even the little sub-contractors I worked for in my misspent youth as a carpenter bitched constantly about OSHA rules. Hard hats when building a residence? HAH! Never saw one--but we should have. We saw some of the biggest poultry and meat companies declare their workers "essential" and then provide them little to no protection from Covid when there were no vaccines. Amazon could EASILY have made their warehouses safer--but Bezos, worth over $150 billion at the time, wouldn't spare the $$ to keep them safe. Hell, the company was deliberately short-changing employees on their salaries!

YT's Rules of Employment for Employers to remember:
1) Don't fuck with the money. You don't work for free. Don't expect others to do so (The Anti-Trump Rule).
2) Loyalty obeys the Law of Gravity: What goes up had damn well better come back down! (Hey--that's another Anti-Trump Rule).
3) Happy people don't leave. Happy people don't leave. Happy people don't leave!!! (Get this through your thick heads, bosses!)
4) People won't tell you the REAL reason they are leaving: "My spouse got a great job in another state" "I want to strike out on my own" "it's a great step up!" (I like this one--if you valued me, I wouldn't NEED to step up somewhere else!). In other words, SEE RULE 3!!!
5) My wife's corollary: It is NEVER good news when the CFO (Chief Financial Officer) leaves. Not ever. Because the CFO leaving means there is a financial mess, and the departing CFO either is to blame or was not allowed to take steps to fix it.
6) My brother's corollary: In every endeavor in life you must always allow for the DH factor. (DH, of course, stands for "Dick Head").
"The upper class: keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class: pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there...just to scare the shit out of the middle class."--George Carlin

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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‘Rust’ assistant director was fired from past gig over another ‘unexpected’ gun discharge

The assistant director of “Rust” who reportedly handed Alec Baldwin the prop gun that killed Halyna Hutchins was fired from a previous production gig over another firearm incident.

In 2019, when Dave Halls was an assistant director on the movie “Freedom’s Path,” a gun “unexpectedly discharged,” injuring a sound crew member, the production company Rocket Soul Studios told CNN.

The crew member recoiled from the shot, sought medical treatment and missed a few days of work, the report said.

Halls was canned that day.

The assistant director “was very remorseful for the events, and understood the reasons he was being terminated,” the production company told CNN.

“A new assistant director as well as a new armorer were hired for the duration of principal photography. Production of the film finished successfully.”

Baldwin last Thursday unknowingly fired a gun containing a live round on the New Mexico movie set. The bullet fatally struck 42-year-old Hutchins and injured 48-year-old director Joel Souza.

Halls had shouted that the weapon was a “cold gun” — meaning it was safe to use — before giving it to Baldwin, according to a search warrant issued on Friday.

No charges have been filed related to the incident.
https://nypost.com/2021/10/25/rust-assi ... discharge/

Looks like somebody didn't learn from their previous mistakes.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

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On Tuesday, New Mexico Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham suggested that the state may push to adopt stricter safety protocols for productions filming in New Mexico.

The governor’s comments come days after cinematographer Halyna Hutchins was fatally shot by a prop gun fired by actor Alec Baldwin on the set of “Rust” outside Santa Fe, N.M.

Safety protocols standard in the industry, including gun inspections, were not strictly followed on the set, several crew members told the Los Angeles Times on Friday. The New Mexico film industry, which has been on the rise since the early 2000s, has grown rapidly in recent years thanks to a generous film incentive program helmed by the state.

“My full expectation is that the film and television industry will, at the conclusion of the investigation into this tragic incident and once all the facts are in hand, bring forward comprehensive new safety protocols to ensure this kind of incident never, ever happens again,” Lujan Grisham said in a statement shared with The Times. “If that sort of comprehensive new approach does not materialize, the state of New Mexico will take immediate action, throughout whatever means are available to us, to ensure the safety of all personnel on all film and television sets here in our state.”

Lujan Grisham first publicly addressed the issue during an economic development news conference Tuesday, as reported by the Albuquerque Journal. The Journal also reports that State Economic Development Secretary Alicia Keyes has been talking to industry officials about possible changes to film-set safety protocols.

In an interview with The Times on Tuesday, New Mexico Senate Majority Leader Peter Wirth said he hoped to see the film industry and the New Mexico film union come up with a plan to address safety issues but would also be open to legislative options.

“There’s a whole bunch of unanswered questions about what exactly happened there,” Wirth said. “So we need answers to those questions. We need to see what the industry is going to do in response. And then determine if it makes sense to do anything from the legislative perspective.”

Wirth characterized film and television production as “a critical industry” to New Mexico’s economy, which has historically been heavily reliant on oil and gas.

“It’s just imperative from my perspective that workers participating in movies here in New Mexico are doing so in a safe environment,” he said.

New Mexico’s all-volunteer state Legislature convenes for one session a year. The 30-day 2022 session will begin in January, according to the governor’s office.

The investigation into the fatal shooting on the “Rust” set, which also injured director Joel Souza, remains ongoing and authorities are still trying to determine what kind of projectile killed Hutchins. The New Mexico Occupational Health and Safety Bureau is also investigating the incident in coordination with law enforcement.

The Santa Fe County sheriff and district attorney are expected to hold their first news conference on the investigation Wednesday morning.

A former Sheriff’s Office insider with direct knowledge of how murder investigations typically play out in Santa Fe County said he expects the case will move slowly.

First, law enforcement has to complete its investigation. He expects that will take at least half a year because even if no one is ever charged with homicide, it is still considered a murder investigation, which is typically a lengthy process.

After that concludes, he said the district attorney’s office will decide how to proceed with the case, most likely bringing it before a grand jury.

“This type of investigation takes a long time, and then it has to go to the D.A.’s office,” the former Sheriff’s Office source said. “It would be six to eight months for this, unless the D.A. wants to fast track it and get it off their plate for some reason.”

In the newly released document obtained by The Times on Sunday night, Souza said the weapon had been described to him as a “cold gun,” meaning it did not have any live rounds.

But the gun discharged, striking Hutchins in her chest and Souza in his right shoulder, according to a Santa Fe County, N.M., sheriff’s detective’s affidavit used to obtain a search warrant. Hutchins was pronounced dead at an Albuquerque hospital.

In a 911 call obtained by The Times, script supervisor Mamie Mitchell — who was standing close to Hutchins and Souza when they were shot — told the operator that she could not say whether the gun was loaded with a real bullet.

On Tuesday, attorney Gloria Allred announced that she would be representing Mitchell and would be “conducting our own investigation of what happened because there are many unanswered questions.”

“Mamie has been interviewed by the Sheriff’s Department,” Allred said in a statement. “She has information and evidence which she believes will be helpful in this investigation.”

The International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees Local 480, which represents “below-the-line” crew members working on film and television productions in New Mexico, also issued a statement Tuesday, saying it was “devastated by the death of our union sister who is remembered as a leader amongst her peers, a talented and rising star in her craft as a Director of Photography, and as a wife and mother.”

“Her death should never have happened,” the statement continues. “Union sets should be safe sets.”

The statement also said Local 480 has been “greatly disturbed by media reports that the producers employed non-union persons in craft positions and, worse, used them to replace skilled union members who were protesting their working conditions,” calling the prospect “inexcusable.”

Local 480 did not address Times questions about whether specific individuals on the crew who have been rumored to be nonunion were, in fact, members of its local or questions about whether the union had been contacted about any issues on “Rust” before the shooting.
https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... or-filming
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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wooglin wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:28 am Kinda wonder why script supervisor Mamie Mitchell has lawyered up when her apparent involvement seems to be tangential at best.
If it’s anything like the design/building-construction industry everyone gets sued regardless just to see what sticks. I know, not fair, but that is the system our politicians and lawyers have allowed to develop.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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sikacz wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:33 am
wooglin wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:28 am Kinda wonder why script supervisor Mamie Mitchell has lawyered up when her apparent involvement seems to be tangential at best.
If it’s anything like the design/building-construction industry everyone gets sued regardless just to see what sticks. I know, not fair, but that is the system our politicians and lawyers have allowed to develop.

If there is a high profile civil case in LA with a woman involved, Gloria Allred is generally representing her.
America's top feminist lawyer, Gloria Allred: 'Men who have been wrongdoers are living in fear'
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... ing-allred

Seems like most politicians are lawyers, they designed the system for their benefit.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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sikacz wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:33 am If it’s anything like the design/building-construction industry everyone gets sued regardless just to see what sticks. I know, not fair, but that is the system our politicians and lawyers have allowed to develop.
I'm thinking more along the lines she was one of the ones firing the guns off set. Or had live ammo in her possession on set. I'd lawyer up before talking to the cops in both instances.

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Someone or somebodies are going to get hung up to dry. Even though I’d like to see baldwin get a bit punishment, he’ll probably skate. The media and entertainment industry from my perspective are fairly anti-gun and baldwin among the loud voices. Vindictive as I am today, I’d rejoice if he got more than a slap on the wrist.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

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