Re: US & UK to help Australia acquire nuclear submarines to counter China

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My money is on Virginia class. The last 688 was launched in '96 which means it will be retired by 2029. I don't see the Aussie's buying a nuclear sub that they will get less than a decade of service out of.

I don't think the Aussies need subsidy, we know they were about to drop $66b with France, so they have AT LEAST that much to spend in the US. Virginia class is under $3b per. They're talking 6-8 boats for around $24b, leaving the rest for operating costs. So the numbers don't look out of line. And according to the article the annual operating costs of the Virginia class is lower than the cost of their current subs.

And we have 3 builders who can crank out Virginia class boats pretty fast. Keeping in mind the US wouldn't piss France off that much unless some defense industry CEO's were about to get their next yacht.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: US & UK to help Australia acquire nuclear submarines to counter China

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What makes you think that they're going to buy US boats? No, this is going to be a joint build/buy operation with the UK, which is just starting to develop their next gen attack boat. Aussie boats will be built in Adelaide, probably using a design shared with the Brits, both depending on US military contractors.

The British nuclear deterrent is based entirely on American Trident missiles, but even then they put them on subs designed and built at home. Course, that gets you into the Scottish independence issue, but that's another tangent.

Re: US & UK to help Australia acquire nuclear submarines to counter China

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Britain’s nuclear-powered submarines are to use Australia as a base so that they can have a more persistent presence in the Indo-Pacific region under plans discussed by ministers.

Senior government sources said that the AUKUS pact could lead to the Royal Navy’s £1.4 billion Astute-class attack submarines undergoing deep maintenance in the region so they can stay deployed for longer rather than returning to the Faslane naval base in Scotland.

The plans would materialise once the Australians start building their own fleet of at least eight nuclear-powered submarines over the coming years with the help of the British and Americans.

The source said that the trilateral pact announced last week “opens up opportunities” for the UK, adding: “You’ve got another base … if you want
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brit ... -rw6mz0p03


In the Royal Navy Vanguard are the boomers with the Tridents, they are being replaced by the Dreadnought class. Astute class is replacing Trafalgar class attack subs.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: US & UK to help Australia acquire nuclear submarines to counter China

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The Brits have two Astute's in construction, and that's supposed to be the end of the Astute class. So unless the Aussie's are buying one of those, its unlikely that they'll be getting an Astute class as the Brits are already working on the replacement for the Astute class. The UK hasn't been real happy with the Astute class. Cost & schedule overruns and the performance has never dazzled them. It's a good sub, and it's better than the Trafalgar class in most categories, but they always felt they should have gotten more for their money.

There's about a dozen ways this deal could go down, and everything is just speculation at this point. Will be interesting to watch.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: US & UK to help Australia acquire nuclear submarines to counter China

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Cost & schedule overruns and the performance has never dazzled them. Unlike in the US where that is the name of the game. Give more money for less product the DoD way with Congressional approval.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: US & UK to help Australia acquire nuclear submarines to counter China

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FrontSight wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:54 am The Brits have two Astute's in construction, and that's supposed to be the end of the Astute class. So unless the Aussie's are buying one of those, its unlikely that they'll be getting an Astute class as the Brits are already working on the replacement for the Astute class. The UK hasn't been real happy with the Astute class. Cost & schedule overruns and the performance has never dazzled them. It's a good sub, and it's better than the Trafalgar class in most categories, but they always felt they should have gotten more for their money.

There's about a dozen ways this deal could go down, and everything is just speculation at this point. Will be interesting to watch.
Yes, and really time is of the essence. I doubt we all can afford to wait seven years for a new build. China is more and more aggressive and will own everything in the seas around them.
Pretty sure there gonna be some lead flying sooner than later.
Redneck Liberal This Is The Way

Re: US & UK to help Australia acquire nuclear submarines to counter China

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tonguengroover wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:53 am Yes, and really time is of the essence. I doubt we all can afford to wait seven years for a new build. China is more and more aggressive and will own everything in the seas around them.
Pretty sure there gonna be some lead flying sooner than later.
I don't think time is going to make much difference.

If China decides to invade Taiwan, the US is going to lose that fight; the smart move is to find a way to not fight. But the US rarely does the smart thing, and we rarely fail to show up for a war we’ve been invited to…So we’ll do the dumb thing and fight.

But its simple logistics… We’re not going to win a war with China, in China; it’s just that simple.

The US and our allies have the Chinese clearly out-gunned in a Naval war, but if we’re fighting for Taiwan, the problem is, there isn’t enough ocean between Taiwan and China to deploy fleets in anything but a suicidal gesture. Taiwan is easily within range of land based aircraft. When you employ ships against land based aircraft history tells us it ends in a lot of sunken ships and dead sailors. Being that close to mainland China just makes it so easy for China to overwhelm the defenses of any naval task force.

Throwing more submarines at the issue will change the statistics, but not the outcome.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: US & UK to help Australia acquire nuclear submarines to counter China

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As Gen. Joseph "Vinegar Joe" Stillwell said after WWII as advice after WWII when China was being taken by Chairman Mao. Never get involved in a land war in Asia. You can't win the war.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: US & UK to help Australia acquire nuclear submarines to counter China

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All I know about subs is that unlike the Titanic, they can come back up, usually.

Too bad all the research, time, effort, money, talent, goes into building such a thing. Unfortunate that they are still useful and necessary for reasons other than exploration.

We're not going to just sit around twiddling our thumbs, waiting on the next asteroid are we? Hell no!We want it done right (now), we'll do it (to) ourselves.

The movie “Hunt for Red October” was referenced earlier. I watched it back when you could get a plastic disk in the mail with a movie on it. Watched it again the other day (streamed it, look how far I've come), and still don't know a boomer when I see one.

Still, I think I would have also liked to have lived in Montana. For the natural landscape, not the political one.
Thank God for Atheists.

Re: US & UK to help Australia acquire nuclear submarines to counter China

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The Strait of Taiwan is a death trap for surface combatants, period. It's a wider crossing than Operation Overlord, and supporting a large enough invasion force to subdue a population of 23 million would be a logistical challenge beyond the experience of the People's Liberation Army Navy. Not saying it can't be done, just that it would require exceptional skill, planning, logistics, and luck.

The last large scale amphibious invasion launched by the PLAN involved the capture of Hainan - with less than half the population and crossing a strait about 19 miles across. That operation was instructive. They went with a classical approach - Greek classics, with a couple thousand wooden boats. Lost a bunch, didn't care. I expect they'll just try to scale that up next time, only with strong air support and a lot of paratroopers.

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