Re: Machines making machines....

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We've diverged from the original point of the thread to the same old argument about socialism, one where there's always going to be a generational divide, and we're never going to see eye to eye. Neither side is going to be able to keep their scorn for the other side out of the conversation.
Last edited by Progurt on Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Machines making machines....

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Progurt wrote:We've diverged from the original point of the thread to the same old argument about socialism, one where there's always going to be a generational divide.
That would be my fault, my ADD got in the way before the first post was even finished.
If I hear "crony" capitalism one more time I'm going to be ill. Capitalism is capitalism, dog eats dog and one dog ends up on top, and he defends that place with all the power he's accumulated.

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JayFromPA wrote:What about the capitalist who controls the levers of the manufacturing rigging the system that only so much is manufactured for the masses... the masses who must then do something, anything, in order to earn the fruits of the self-replicating machine labor.

After all, why should King Capitalist direct his machines to create enough cars for all? Enough bicycles for all? Enough clothing for all? Enough food for all? Why not direct his machines to create a security force capable of securing and patrolling a few million acres in pristine nature, and only create enough food to keep the nearby populace hungry enough to fight in the gladiator arena? Furthermore, why create advanced weapons? If the surplus is of human flesh, then advanced body armor is unnecessary, there are always fresh warm bodies ready to step up and fight in m'lord's army. Good weapons are also not a luxury to be supplied to all, either, as you wouldn't want a coup.

...

When the king can, with a few turns of a single gear, mechanically produce enough goods to sustain a nation... then the only thing keeping the king on the throne is to severely limit the distribution of those goods to the nation.
Took you long enough, I was starting to get worried.

Simple answer, one lever puller, one target. Better answer, as machining becomes more and more computer based and automated you democratize the process. The same thing that's happening with the music and film industry, where people skip the middle man all together and do their own production with little cost to them, will happen with machining and production. So there's not "one king controlling the lever", there's millions of people controlling their own levers so the threat of "well I just won't produce enough" doesn't matter.

Cmon Jay, gotta do better than that.
Everything You Wanted to Know About ARs
The Armed Socialist

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whitey wrote:
gendoikari87 wrote:Question whitey, why do you fear democracy? The fear of socialism is the fear of democracy in the last place that is run by an oligarchy, that has a vast impact on our daily lives.
WTF are you talking about now?
Socialism, it is the democratic control of the means of production as opposed to the minority rule that we currently practice.
If I hear "crony" capitalism one more time I'm going to be ill. Capitalism is capitalism, dog eats dog and one dog ends up on top, and he defends that place with all the power he's accumulated.

Re: Machines making machines....

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Inquisitor wrote:If only I could modify other people's ignore lists.
I only use the ignore list for people I think will never have anything of value to say, whether I agree or disagree with the overall content of what they're saying. I disagree with a few people pretty strongly on issues of economics, and with a few others (and there may be some overlap) on issues of politics (particularly party politics), but that doesn't mean that those disagreements don't have value to me, or that there aren't other things I do like seeing from them.

If my views are never challenged, I will never be able to defend them, and to get better at defending them. I need arguments in order to make better points. This isn't just true of me, this is true of anybody and of any position. If views are never challenged, growth is impossible. Even if the discussions become vitriolic at times, even if neither of the people directly participating in the argument change their minds, at least it has the chance to lead to a better understanding of the other's position, and it may prove informative for somebody simply watching the debate. Even when an argument gets heated, so long as it hasn't descended into pure back and forth insults ("I know you are but what am I???"), there is still value to it.
If you have any complaints about my posts, they can be addressed here at this link
Liberally Geeky - My Blog
My avatar is Kropotkin, author of The Conquest of Bread and Mutual Aid

Re: Machines making machines....

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ABNinfantryman wrote: Took you long enough, I was starting to get worried.
...
Cmon Jay, gotta do better than that.
Cut me some slack, I've got shit on my mind. Pay's down twenty percent this past month making a real squeeze on the unemployed friend I'm housing, Uncle's got a quintuple bypass, there are only four heart vessels but he overachieved and had one bypassed twice, uncle's foot caught gangrene and half is now gone, I figure another week till they take it off at the ankle just to get ahead of the bone infection, 1 1/2 year old niece has been sick all week, dad's knee replacement caught sepsis and has to be taken out for a while then reinstalled, something has caused him to become about 3/4 deaf and jacked his blood sugar beyond 400 even without eating. I'm damned exhausted, and deadpan serious that I now think everyone should just vote for the craziest fucker imaginable, because I'm just no longer in the mood to tolerate the superficial song and dance.
ABNinfantryman wrote:Simple answer, one lever puller, one target. Better answer, as machining becomes more and more computer based and automated you democratize the process. The same thing that's happening with the music and film industry, where people skip the middle man all together and do their own production with little cost to them, will happen with machining and production. So there's not "one king controlling the lever", there's millions of people controlling their own levers so the threat of "well I just won't produce enough" doesn't matter.
Only issue with all this is the energy source. The king with the lever can't be given the thousand yard lead injection if the lever is his personal phone calls with oil tankers from abroad / pipeline controllers abroad / etc. We fucking need way efficient solar panels to pull from this grid. Solar / residential size wind turbines for self sustaining electricity. Until towns can cover their own asses as far as keeping their own lights on, that they all have a machine shop in the local high school means nothing, because the king can pull a lever with a phone call and turn off their machines.

When all is said and done, the money all flows to the few irremovable things in today's culture: food, electricity, media. Local farms, self power, books; that's my prescription for breaking the cycle.

Re: Machines making machines....

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Inquisitor wrote:If only I could modify other people's ignore lists.
ftp access to the site would let you do that.
I can't tell from the forum creator docs at the moment, but it looks like the ignore list is a standalone file for each user. Make a file with the desired data and appropriate name in the appropriate place, and bob's yer uncle.

Re: Machines making machines....

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Like you I make an obscene amount of money for what I do, I don't begrudge the owner of the company I'm leased to for the money he makes, the houses he has, or the amount of cars he toys with. Had he not had the drive to build up his families business to the size and stature it is now, I wouldn't make the money I do. I have an enjoyable lifestyle thanks to that determination and if you or others think I'm being exploited or having money taken away from me, you're sadly uninformed. Maybe if we sat down and discussed business models, you could tell me where I'm wrong or shocking I know, but maybe you would see where you were wrong. I've been self employed since I was 21 and the times I felt like I was being cheated out of money, I took my business elsewhere.
I'm not familiar with the specifics of your business, your industry, or your labor, but we'll say logistics/trucking. Let me break this down for you as simply as I can, and please don't take this as a personal attack against you as I have no personal beef.

The overwhelming majority of Socialists, both Anarchist and Marxist concur that there has historically been a perpetual war between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat. We simply refer to this as the class war or class struggle.

You live a comfortable lifestyle because you are the neighbor to the bourgeoisie. The truckers before you in the earlier part of the 20th century did not have it so good which is why they organized into the Brotherhood of Teamsters (later known as the International Brotherhood of Teamsters). Your comfort level is apart of a compromise, a truce, between the American proletariat and the bourgeoisie. This truce was achieved after the 1930's strike movement which gave rise to the New Deal. The truce can be best thought of by the saying, "Good fences make good neighbors."

This truce slowly been whittled away due to a variety of factors for the past half-century. I say that because there was a slight gain by the business unions like the Teamsters (Jimmy Hoffa the ex-president of the Teamsters was able to win the National Master Freight Agreement). The greater amount of this gain can be summed up simply as greater benefits like pensions in exchange for an alliance with the bourgeoisie against the anti-capitalist elements (McCarthyism, Red Scare, Civil Rights Movement).

Fast forward to 1994-1999, defeats by the business/trade unions lead to NAFTA- the North American Free Trade Agreement and the greater influence of the WTO-World Trade Organization. The Bourgeoisie is able to circumvent the truce completely by streamlining capitalist globalization. Due to new systems in communication and transport, capitalists can very effectively use a globalized market to skirt around national based unions. Steelworkers union? Not a problem we'll have our non-union slaves in China do that.... Problems with the UAW? No problem, our non-union wage slaves in Mexico can do that. Now you might be thinking that "Well I'm non-union, fuck the Teamsters, it doesn't affect me." Well that is a common line of thought among the non-union, but the EPI (Economic Policy Institute feels differently) Check out their report on how union wages affect non-union wages here: http://www.epi.org/page/-/old/briefingp ... /bp143.pdf

Fast forward to 2012; Unions are in decline, making up 6.5% of the private sector compared to their former glory at 30%; the lowest numbers since 1900. Public sector unions are now under heavy attack by Republican (fascist) governors. The wages earned are now stagnant, but when including inflation they are falling http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezr ... _blog.html. Because the wages are falling, poverty is increasing: http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/13/news/ec ... /index.htm The wealth of the riches 1% of the American Empire has actually increased to the greatest proportion of any empire in human history. http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... -animation

So where does that leave you? Well you are what socialists call "Labor aristocracy" in that you have achieved an income that makes you comfortable and flacid. When you own a little business we have another term called "Petty Bourgeoisie," essentially the psychology of hegemony amounts to the same thing for both of these sub categories of proletariat. Your social status marginalizes you from the greater proletariat which is described here: http://www.unmillenniumproject.org/reso ... acts_e.htm. There is hope however, the recent attacks against you after the breaking of the truce may inspire within you that beautiful ten letter word.

Unlike the rest of the planet, you can actually afford to enjoy your level of exploitation! However, we must not ignore the meaning of the word "Solidairty!" We must not allow the Bourgeoisie to buy our loyalty like they do with the politicians. While that may be much easier to see than this level of bribery--it is still the same. The planet is on the verge of destruction, so there is no longer the luxury of staying neutral in the class war. You are either with the Bourgeoisie and their Social Democratic allies, or you will lend your support to the Proletariat!

I'll close this appeal with the words of Malcolm X:
"the task of Social-Democracy [revolutionary] is
to imbue the proletariat (literally: saturate the
proletariat) with the consciousness of its position and the
consciousness of its task."

Image

Re: Machines making machines....

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The two things that hurt the trucking industry in a major way were deregulation in the early '80's and Clinton doing away with the ICC. Unfortunately both were achieved with Democratic support. As much as this will hurt for you to hear this but with the disorganization of this industry, unions are more of a burden than a help. The laws trying to be pushed through by the likes of the ATA and the teamsters along with another group whose name escapes me, do nothing to address pay but rather go after my work availability. I apologize in advance for derailing this thread but it irks me when people who have no clue about this industry chime in as know it alls. That's why it has gotten to this point, too many people in the DC bubble sticking their nose where it doesn't belong.
*DISCLAIMER* This post may have been made from a barstool.

Re: Machines making machines....

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whitey wrote:The two things that hurt the trucking industry in a major way were deregulation in the early '80's and Clinton doing away with the ICC. Unfortunately both were achieved with Democratic support.

You'll never hear me argue about the fact that Democrats are not allies of the working class. As far back as 1904 union organizer Eugene V. Debs said:
The Republican and Democratic parties, or, to be more exact, the Republican-Democratic party, represent the capitalist class in the class struggle. They are the political wings of the capitalist system and such differences as arise between them relate to spoils and not to principles.
If you have any complaints about my posts, they can be addressed here at this link
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My avatar is Kropotkin, author of The Conquest of Bread and Mutual Aid

Re: Machines making machines....

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JayFromPA wrote:
Inquisitor wrote:If only I could modify other people's ignore lists.
ftp access to the site would let you do that.
I can't tell from the forum creator docs at the moment, but it looks like the ignore list is a standalone file for each user. Make a file with the desired data and appropriate name in the appropriate place, and bob's yer uncle.
Yeah, sarcasm on my part :)

Re: Machines making machines....

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whitey wrote:The two things that hurt the trucking industry in a major way were deregulation in the early '80's and Clinton doing away with the ICC. Unfortunately both were achieved with Democratic support. As much as this will hurt for you to hear this but with the disorganization of this industry, unions are more of a burden than a help. The laws trying to be pushed through by the likes of the ATA and the teamsters along with another group whose name escapes me, do nothing to address pay but rather go after my work availability. I apologize in advance for derailing this thread but it irks me when people who have no clue about this industry chime in as know it alls. That's why it has gotten to this point, too many people in the DC bubble sticking their nose where it doesn't belong.
Whitey we aren't talking about just your industry, we're talking about economics as a whole. And yes, todays unions are corrupt, and in bad need of fixing, but lets not forget they are what gave us things like the weekend and reasonable hours.
If I hear "crony" capitalism one more time I'm going to be ill. Capitalism is capitalism, dog eats dog and one dog ends up on top, and he defends that place with all the power he's accumulated.

Re: Machines making machines....

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The two things that hurt the trucking industry in a major way were deregulation in the early '80's and Clinton doing away with the ICC. Unfortunately both were achieved with Democratic support. As much as this will hurt for you to hear this but with the disorganization of this industry, unions are more of a burden than a help. The laws trying to be pushed through by the likes of the ATA and the teamsters along with another group whose name escapes me, do nothing to address pay but rather go after my work availability. I apologize in advance for derailing this thread but it irks me when people who have no clue about this industry chime in as know it alls. That's why it has gotten to this point, too many people in the DC bubble sticking their nose where it doesn't belong.
What you just said strengthened my argument.

"The Bourgeoisie is able to circumvent the truce completely by streamlining capitalist globalization" Deregulation of industry is apart of that streamlining process.

http://www.strattonfaxon.com/pdfs/The%2 ... AFTA_1.pdf
"the task of Social-Democracy [revolutionary] is
to imbue the proletariat (literally: saturate the
proletariat) with the consciousness of its position and the
consciousness of its task."

Image

Re: Machines making machines....

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JayFromPA wrote: Cut me some slack, I've got shit on my mind. Pay's down twenty percent this past month making a real squeeze on the unemployed friend I'm housing, Uncle's got a quintuple bypass, there are only four heart vessels but he overachieved and had one bypassed twice, uncle's foot caught gangrene and half is now gone, I figure another week till they take it off at the ankle just to get ahead of the bone infection, 1 1/2 year old niece has been sick all week, dad's knee replacement caught sepsis and has to be taken out for a while then reinstalled, something has caused him to become about 3/4 deaf and jacked his blood sugar beyond 400 even without eating. I'm damned exhausted, and deadpan serious that I now think everyone should just vote for the craziest fucker imaginable, because I'm just no longer in the mood to tolerate the superficial song and dance.
I hear ya man. I'm going through a divorce with a drug addict, set to deploy again real soon, and on top of it I got pretty fucked up on a jump on Thursday which has left me bed/couch ridden this weekend scarfing down percoset, valium, and motrin with a broken nose and tail bone and nerve damage on my ass and lower back. I had a bit of a scare when I was riding to the hospital because I couldn't feel my toes for a minute and thought I might be paralyzed from the waist down. Luckily it was just the muscles seizing up, but it's made me rethink this whole jumping out of planes thing.
Only issue with all this is the energy source. The king with the lever can't be given the thousand yard lead injection if the lever is his personal phone calls with oil tankers from abroad / pipeline controllers abroad / etc. We fucking need way efficient solar panels to pull from this grid. Solar / residential size wind turbines for self sustaining electricity. Until towns can cover their own asses as far as keeping their own lights on, that they all have a machine shop in the local high school means nothing, because the king can pull a lever with a phone call and turn off their machines.

When all is said and done, the money all flows to the few irremovable things in today's culture: food, electricity, media. Local farms, self power, books; that's my prescription for breaking the cycle.
Like I told Gendo, when you view the future and the situation you have to look at it like "How can this work" and not "This can't work because." It's all interconnected as you showed here, you have to have energy to power the machines, but you already gave the solution with the democratization of the power grid by essentially turning every home into a power generator. As the materials and technology become better and cheaper you will see this come to fruition. I know I keep pointing to the film and music industry, but it's the best example at our disposal. Think about it like this, just twelve years ago people having a broadband connection faster than 2MB download speeds was usually the realm of T1/T3 connections and they were expensive as all hell. Not to mention the people who only really had broadband were the gamers and the pirates, now it's common place, everyone has some sort of broadband connection because it's cheap. People are also discovering Netflix and Hulu and realizing they don't need TV because they can get everything online. That's the evolution of technology, getting us back to the point where you can stroll the "fields" as it were and pick the low hanging fruit because it's so abundant. The internet has changed the paradigm on media distribution simply based on the advancement of the technology and competition. The same will happen for other technologies and services as well. Doctors are able to perform surgery on the otherside of the world from the patient giving people the best health care available regardless of where they live, that's an amazing feat.

The only way the "king" could stop it is if he threw the switch now and even then he'd be hard pressed to stop it.

@Amrev, I generally don't like your naivete and idealism but that was a beautiful write up.
Everything You Wanted to Know About ARs
The Armed Socialist

Re: Machines making machines....

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gendoikari87 wrote:
whitey wrote:The two things that hurt the trucking industry in a major way were deregulation in the early '80's and Clinton doing away with the ICC. Unfortunately both were achieved with Democratic support. As much as this will hurt for you to hear this but with the disorganization of this industry, unions are more of a burden than a help. The laws trying to be pushed through by the likes of the ATA and the teamsters along with another group whose name escapes me, do nothing to address pay but rather go after my work availability. I apologize in advance for derailing this thread but it irks me when people who have no clue about this industry chime in as know it alls. That's why it has gotten to this point, too many people in the DC bubble sticking their nose where it doesn't belong.
Whitey we aren't talking about just your industry, we're talking about economics as a whole. And yes, todays unions are corrupt, and in bad need of fixing, but lets not forget they are what gave us things like the weekend and reasonable hours.
I realize that Gendo, I didn't mean for this topic to derail to talking about my industry. I apologize to others that might have gotten sucked into the socialist vortex again. I put you on my ignore list so I'm done discussing this. Nothing personal, I just need to take a break from reading your rants. My blood pressure has had enough of you for the time being, good day.
*DISCLAIMER* This post may have been made from a barstool.

Re: Machines making machines....

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Sixty-Six years from the Wright Flier to Apollo 11. Auto mat, vending machine, self checkout(grocery store, not mirror), self drive.

White men can't jump, truck drivers can't code. I drove for a while. Could write a book about what's wrong with the industry from the wheel side. Glad to be thrice retired. The only question left me is that of consciousness surviving death. I'll get back with you?
Thank God for Atheists.

Re: Machines making machines....

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Didn’t say coders can’t drive.

Didn't mean to sound so abrupt.

My experience with that world is somewhat dated. Then, the notion that transistors could replace teamsters would get you laughed out of the union hall. You'd be lucky if laughter was the only thing hastening your exit.

With the relentless march of progress, truck drivers will more and more resemble the inside of my computer and less and less like the chunk of protoplasm poking at it's keyboard.

Their jobs literally reduced to bits.

Dignity has value.
Last edited by papajim2jordan on Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thank God for Atheists.

Re: Machines making machines....

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Some of what I see here makes no sense. The free market rewards the companies that produces the best products at the best value. Value is not price, value is a proposition that includes cost, quality, waranty, customer service, etc.

3D printers and other small batch machines are good for developing a prototype, but who would spend the time and money to print a 32oz party cup.

Companies will continue to mass produce, specialize and try to lower their expenses as much as they can.
Labor is a massive expense for any business so they try to keep costs down. Companies compete with each other for employees.

People can become better employees and move up in position. We can also organize in unions for collective bargaining. BUT, the reality is we live in a world economy. The opposition to paying higher salaries is the cost of goods goes up and companies who do cost to benefit analytics may decide to invest in technology that reduces labor costs.

We can also see jobs go overseas or American companies fail to exist. Right now labor is in demand, wages are going up and inflation with it. So make more, spend more for the same stuff.

In the end what matters is consumer buying power. It is great to talk about how shameful it is that all of the shoe manufacturers left America, but when our parents could spend $80 on American made or $25 on imports, they sent their kids to school with the $25 sneakers, at least mine did.

Communities complain when Walmart comes in and takes out small business owners, they don't mention that the lower prices increases the buying power of the community raising the standard of living. My parents were small bussiness owners taken out by trickle down economics in the late 80's. They shop at Walmart today.

I am not saying things are fair, but I am saying things are not simple.
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