Re: Should the US intervene if Russia/Belarus invades Ukraine?

51
Did anyone believe that after 1997 China would allow Hong Kong to flourish as an independent Democracy perpetually?
I am amazed they held off as long as they could. But Xi, being as brutal (albeit subtle) a dictator as there is in the world, just could not resist the urge to kill the goose that laid the golden eggs. And now he has done it. I cannot imagine any company investing Hong Kong now that its special status has been violated and destroyed.

Nations don't learn. In 1923, in January, France invaded the Ruhr Valley in Germany, seeking to TAKE the reparations Germany wasn't paying. But it's not like stealing a vault full of gold. You have factories and skilled experienced workers and managers and accountants, plus foreign and domestic investors. And customers. You take the place over and all you have are factories filled with machines. The invasion failed, miserably, and the ruling party lost power.
""If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -- LBJ

Re: Should the US intervene if Russia/Belarus invades Ukraine?

52
China learned from Hong Kong. The main reason they broke the agreement the other parts of China was looking at the democracy in Hong Kong. The Chinese Government knew they had to stop it there before it spread.

As for Taiwan and the ROC. They have had a working relationship with China for decades. Many of the goods mark Made in Taiwan were actually made in China. It is a beneficial relationship for both sides.

China overall tries to play the long game by out waiting their opposition on the world stage. We change administrations every 4 to 8 years and with that change we cage positions on many foreign polices. Eventually China will get someone hear today go ahead and merge the countries. After so many years and the old guard has finally died off it might even be a peaceful merger.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer-Kissinger
Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired.-Swift

Re: Should the US intervene if Russia/Belarus invades Ukraine?

54
As long as Xi has the reigns of power and he appoints the HK exec it was going to be down hill for HK. Xi sees himself replacing Mao as the greatest Chinese leader and master of the Chinese economy.

Here's hoping that Biden can resuscitate US manufacturing and through tariffs and sanctions deter China from its expansionist aims in Asia.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Should the US intervene if Russia/Belarus invades Ukraine?

55
As for the Ukraine, we are just hopefully getting out of twenty year war we didn't win, do we need another one? The Ukraine has been ether a vassal state or part of Russia off and on for centuries. If Putin really wants it there is nothing we can do except what we did in Afghanistan when Russia invaded it. Give arms to the resistance and let them wear down the Russians. But don't send any troops into that area.

We haven't "won" a war since WWII. We need to totally rethink our military posture and really debate before sending troops anywhere outside our NATO and other Mutual military aid countries like Japan.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer-Kissinger
Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired.-Swift

Re: Should the US intervene if Russia/Belarus invades Ukraine?

56
highdesert wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:22 am Xi sees himself replacing Mao as the greatest Chinese leader and master of the Chinese economy.
Looking at the metrics, if he continues the way he's going; he's a shoe in. But there are TONS of opportunities to trip over his dick and become infamous...only time will tell.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Should the US intervene if Russia/Belarus invades Ukraine?

57
TrueTexan wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:31 am As for the Ukraine, we are just hopefully getting out of twenty year war we didn't win, do we need another one? The Ukraine has been ether a vassal state or part of Russia off and on for centuries. If Putin really wants it there is nothing we can do except what we did in Afghanistan when Russia invaded it. Give arms to the resistance and let them wear down the Russians. But don't send any troops into that area.

We haven't "won" a war since WWII. We need to totally rethink our military posture and really debate before sending troops anywhere outside our NATO and other Mutual military aid countries like Japan.
We won in Kosovo. We won the 1st Iraq war.

The Taliban were in position to be crushed 18 years ago when Rummy, Darth & their motley crew convinced Dubya to pull all the key materiel out for the ill-fated, ill-planned, cockamamie scheme to invade Iraq, build bases paid for by stolen Iraqi oil, and become the dominant force, like the Death Star, in the Middle East. In war, if you squander your first chance for victory, the 2nd is much harder and bloodier to come by. After Gettysburg, if Meade had pursued Lee, the War would have been over. Instead he let Lee escape.
""If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -- LBJ

Re: Should the US intervene if Russia/Belarus invades Ukraine?

58
My SIL’s husband is Croatian and he and his brother will flatly state we didn’t win. There is still the same issues as before just not as bad. It is like saying we won the Civil War and made everybody equal by law and can vote. But blacks and other POC are still not treated equal and are denied the right to vote by devious means even today.

As for the first Iraq war we may have beaten the Iraq Army but Saddam Hussein was still in power. It took a second time to get rid of him and we are still having problems over there and 2,500 us troops are still in Iraq.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer-Kissinger
Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired.-Swift

Re: Should the US intervene if Russia/Belarus invades Ukraine?

59
Frankly I don’t think it’s any of our f’n business. There should be a unified world body that is able to resolve issues between states. Unfortunately the only one we have has the usual cronies including us on a panel with each having veto power over others. As long as big nations have special privileges there will be wars. We should be involved, but we have many times been involved if not in a visible role in a background one.
Image
Image

"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Should the US intervene if Russia/Belarus invades Ukraine?

60
sikacz wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:46 pm Frankly I don’t think it’s any of our f’n business. There should be a unified world body that is able to resolve issues between states. Unfortunately the only one we have has the usual cronies including us on a panel with each having veto power over others. As long as big nations have special privileges there will be wars. We should be involved, but we have many times been involved if not in a visible role in a background one.
I totally agree.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer-Kissinger
Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired.-Swift

Re: Should the US intervene if Russia/Belarus invades Ukraine?

61
TrueTexan wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:03 pm
sikacz wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:46 pm Frankly I don’t think it’s any of our f’n business. There should be a unified world body that is able to resolve issues between states. Unfortunately the only one we have has the usual cronies including us on a panel with each having veto power over others. As long as big nations have special privileges there will be wars. We should be involved, but we have many times been involved if not in a visible role in a background one.
I totally agree.
Me too.

Re: Should the US intervene if Russia/Belarus invades Ukraine?

62
United world government, that's a topic guaranteed to set off Republicans , many Americans and world governments. Nations are sovereign and they aren't surrendering their sovereignty to any international body. Countries in the EU formed an economic union and members can exit from it as the UK did. There's a reason the UN isn't a strong international body, countries don't trust other countries.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Should the US intervene if Russia/Belarus invades Ukraine?

63
highdesert wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:20 pm United world government, that's a topic guaranteed to set off Republicans , many Americans and world governments. Nations are sovereign and they aren't surrendering their sovereignty to any international body. Countries in the EU formed an economic union and members can exit from it as the UK did. There's a reason the UN isn't a strong international body, countries don't trust other countries.
You mean countries with power, wealth and privilege don’t trust smaller countries with no means to resist the will of the privileged to collectively make a fair decision and to collectively tell an aggressor like the USA, Russia, China and the whole security council permanent members to stop. It’s about privilege versus those who do not have privilege. There is a reason they don’t trust, it’s because the privileged have been behind all the violence and oppression. They fear without their privileged they would be held accountable. I doubt many small countries distrust other countries, if they did they would not participate in a sham show like the UN.
Image
Image

"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Should the US intervene if Russia/Belarus invades Ukraine?

64
sikacz wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:41 pm
highdesert wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:20 pm United world government, that's a topic guaranteed to set off Republicans , many Americans and world governments. Nations are sovereign and they aren't surrendering their sovereignty to any international body. Countries in the EU formed an economic union and members can exit from it as the UK did. There's a reason the UN isn't a strong international body, countries don't trust other countries.
You mean countries with power, wealth and privilege don’t trust smaller countries with no means to resist the will of the privileged to collectively make a fair decision and to collectively tell an aggressor like the USA, Russia, China and the whole security council permanent members to stop. It’s about privilege versus those who do not have privilege. There is a reason they don’t trust, it’s because the privileged have been behind all the violence and oppression. They fear without their privileged they would be held accountable. I doubt many small countries distrust other countries, if they did they would not participate in a sham show like the UN.

Poor countries don't trust other poor countries and rich countries don't trust other rich countries - everything isn't rich vs poor. Countries have the same prejudices and interests as people.
Last edited by highdesert on Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Should the US intervene if Russia/Belarus invades Ukraine?

65
TrueTexan wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:35 pm My SIL’s husband is Croatian and he and his brother will flatly state we didn’t win. There is still the same issues as before just not as bad. It is like saying we won the Civil War and made everybody equal by law and can vote. But blacks and other POC are still not treated equal and are denied the right to vote by devious means even today.

As for the first Iraq war we may have beaten the Iraq Army but Saddam Hussein was still in power. It took a second time to get rid of him and we are still having problems over there and 2,500 us troops are still in Iraq.
Yeah, and a lot of ReTrumplicans will tell you Biden didn't win either. But when we were having our kitchen reno'ed in 1999, one of the Albanian guys laying the floor tile had been fighting in the war and he said to me "When the US and UN forces came I threw down my gun!" He knew what that meant!

The objective in the first Iraq war was NEVER to get rid of Saddam but to get him out of Kuwait, to break him as a force in the ME, and to bottle him up, and "castrate" him to the outside world. In that it was basically totally successful. The 2nd war was a shit-show even before it started. Jimmy Carter made a speech saying "Don't do it! It's a MISTAKE!" Which it was.
""If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -- LBJ

Re: Should the US intervene if Russia/Belarus invades Ukraine?

66
The US tends to be fairly good at the fighting part, but not the aftermath. Then again, I don't think anyone is really good at the aftermath. The expectation we're goin to go to war, overthrow our enemy, and install a government that is friendly to the US is a pipe dream. The Marshall plan only worked under the political conditions in which it was implemented. To think we can do that at will is pure fantasy.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Should the US intervene if Russia/Belarus invades Ukraine?

67
YankeeTarheel wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:27 pm
TrueTexan wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:35 pm My SIL’s husband is Croatian and he and his brother will flatly state we didn’t win. There is still the same issues as before just not as bad. It is like saying we won the Civil War and made everybody equal by law and can vote. But blacks and other POC are still not treated equal and are denied the right to vote by devious means even today.

As for the first Iraq war we may have beaten the Iraq Army but Saddam Hussein was still in power. It took a second time to get rid of him and we are still having problems over there and 2,500 us troops are still in Iraq.
Yeah, and a lot of ReTrumplicans will tell you Biden didn't win either. But when we were having our kitchen reno'ed in 1999, one of the Albanian guys laying the floor tile had been fighting in the war and he said to me "When the US and UN forces came I threw down my gun!" He knew what that meant!

The objective in the first Iraq war was NEVER to get rid of Saddam but to get him out of Kuwait, to break him as a force in the ME, and to bottle him up, and "castrate" him to the outside world. In that it was basically totally successful. The 2nd war was a shit-show even before it started. Jimmy Carter made a speech saying "Don't do it! It's a MISTAKE!" Which it was.
Yes, IIRC W said in the 2000 election that he didn't believe in nation building and that's exactly what he got us into in Iraq. Saddam Hussein was a butcher and a dictator, he's not the only one in the world. Sunni Iraq though was a check on Shia Iran, now the Shias rule Iraq.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Should the US intervene if Russia/Belarus invades Ukraine?

68
sikacz wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:46 pm Frankly I don’t think it’s any of our f’n business. There should be a unified world body that is able to resolve issues between states.
How's federalism working out?
sikacz wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:46 pm Unfortunately the only one we have has the usual cronies including us on a panel with each having veto power over others. As long as big nations have special privileges there will be wars. We should be involved, but we have many times been involved if not in a visible role in a background one.
It's a relic of the Cold War. Seem to recall there being some sort of complicating issue involving nuclear weapons and national sovereignty.

Think what you may of the man, there's a lot to be said for the Powell Doctrine. Specific, achievable goals are always a good idea. So is international support. Pity he didn't push for 'em in '03.

Re: Should the US intervene if Russia/Belarus invades Ukraine?

70
CDFingers wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:49 am If we want to stay out of European wars, there is only one way: register women for the draft. There will be no foreign adventures.
CDFingers
Well we might just get rid of the draft.
‘Selective Service Repeal Act’ Introduced in Congress

The Selective Service Repeal Act of 2021 (H.R. 2509 and S. 1139) was introduced in Congress on April 14th with bipartisan support in both the House and the Senate.

Initial co-sponsors of the bill to end draft registration and abolish the Selective Service System are Rep. Peter DeFazio (D-OR), Rep. Rodney Davis (R-IL), Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR), and Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY).

"No young person, regardless of gender, should be subject to a military draft or be forced to register for a draft in the United States. The military draft registration system is an unnecessary, wasteful bureaucracy which unconstitutionally violates Americans’ civil liberties. We should be abolishing military draft registration altogether, not expanding it," said Rep. DeFazio.

"If a war is worth fighting, Congress will vote to declare it and people will volunteer," said Sen. Paul.

Other cosponsors of the bill include Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton (D-DC). Residents of the District of Colombia, Puerto Rico, and other U.S. territories are subject to the military draft, but have no voting representation in Congress, only nonvoting "Delegates" to the House of Representatives.

The Selective Service Repeal Act would:

Repeal the Military Selective Service Act, in its entirety;
Repeal Presidential authority to order registration for a military draft;
Abolish the Selective Service System, including the data center, national and regional offices, and local draft boards that have been appointed and trained for every country in the US (the list of all draft board members has recently been released and posted online for the first time);
Repeal all Federal sanctions for not having registered with the Selective Service System; and
Preempt all state sanctions for not having registered with the Selective Service System.
The same day the Selective Service Repeal Act was introduced in Congress, the Biden Administration filed its brief in the Supreme Court asking the court not to consider a case challenging the Constitutionality of the current Selective Service registration requirement. The Supreme Court’s decision on whether to hear this case is expected to be made in May or June. If the Supreme Court takes the case, it will be argued in the fall. The administration’s argument against Supreme Court review is based primarily on judicial "deference" to political and military decisions. But we need more judicial oversight, not less, over decisions to wage endless, unlimited, undeclared wars.

The administration’s brief to the Supreme Court mentions the possibility that Congress might try to expand draft registration to women, but ignores the possibility that Congress might end draft registration. Either or both options could be considered as part of the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) for Fiscal Year 2022, consideration of which will begin shortly in the House and Senate Armed Service Committees. The future of Selective Service registration deserves full hearings and public debate, not just a fast-track decision in closed-door markup sessions, as part of that process.

The Selective Service Repeal Act has already been endorsed by organizations including the Center on Conscience & War, World BEYOND War, RootsAction.org, CODEPINK, Truth in Recruitment, the Military Law Task Force of the National Lawyers Guild, Friends Committee on National Legislation (FCNL), American Friends Service Committee (AFSC), Just Foreign Policy, Committee Opposed to Militarism and the Draft (COMD), Pax Christi USA, Courage to Resist, Peace Action, the Presbyterian Peace Fellowship, and Antiwar.com. More organizations are expected to join in support of this bill.

World BEYOND War and CODEPINK have both set up web forms you can use to email your US Representative and Senators. Urge them to co-sponsor the Selective Service Repeal Act (H.R. 2509 and S. 1139) and ask the House and Senate Armed Services Committees to hold full and fair hearings that hear from anti-war and anti-draft witnesses, and to act promptly on this bill.
https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2021/04/16 ... -congress/

The Selective Service isa joke that wastes taxpayer dollars as much as a good bit of the Defense Department. We have an all volunteer military. If the war needed so many troops to call for a draft we wouldn't be able to use it, because we would be in a nuclear war and it would be all over anyway.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer-Kissinger
Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired.-Swift

Re: Should the US intervene if Russia/Belarus invades Ukraine?

71
Works for me, but the draft lottery in 1970 was the only thing I've ever won: my number was over 300, so unless the VC were coming down my street with fixed bayonets, I wouldn't be drafted--so said my Jr. Year history teacher.

CDFingers
Image
Image
.
Sometimes when the cuckoo's cryin;, when the moon is half way down,
sometimes when the night is dyin' I take me out and I wonder around--I wander 'round.

Re: Should the US intervene if Russia/Belarus invades Ukraine?

72
CDFingers wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:04 pm Works for me, but the draft lottery in 1970 was the only thing I've ever won: my number was over 300, so unless the VC were coming down my street with fixed bayonets, I wouldn't be drafted--so said my Jr. Year history teacher.

CDFingers
Well I got mine my senior year in 1970 and it was Number 54. Well I first had a HS student deferment. I called the Army Recruiter and asked if they would take a person that is totally blind in one eye. He said no, but is I was deaf in one ear he could take me. Later I had an appointment with my eye doctor to get my eye check. I asked him for a letter to send to the draft board about the fact I am blind in one eye. That got me a 1Y deferment later changed to 4F.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer-Kissinger
Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired.-Swift

Re: Should the US intervene if Russia/Belarus invades Ukraine?

73
TrueTexan wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:53 pm
CDFingers wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:04 pm Works for me, but the draft lottery in 1970 was the only thing I've ever won: my number was over 300, so unless the VC were coming down my street with fixed bayonets, I wouldn't be drafted--so said my Jr. Year history teacher.

CDFingers
Well I got mine my senior year in 1970 and it was Number 54. Well I first had a HS student deferment. I called the Army Recruiter and asked if they would take a person that is totally blind in one eye. He said no, but is I was deaf in one ear he could take me. Later I had an appointment with my eye doctor to get my eye check. I asked him for a letter to send to the draft board about the fact I am blind in one eye. That got me a 1Y deferment later changed to 4F.

My number was 28 in 1973, but I've had hypertension all my life so I was deferred. I believe that "national service" can be satisfied in may ways and that our "professional military" probably wants to select the best candidates among the most healthy similar to many countries.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Should the US intervene if Russia/Belarus invades Ukraine?

74
highdesert wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:19 pm
Yes, IIRC W said in the 2000 election that he didn't believe in nation building and that's exactly what he got us into in Iraq. Saddam Hussein was a butcher and a dictator, he's not the only one in the world. Sunni Iraq though was a check on Shia Iran, now the Shias rule Iraq.
Exactly. The 2nd Iraq War was a total shit-show. The first left Saddam as a check on radical, violent wings of Shi'ites. And, of course, the 2nd lead to ISIS.
""If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -- LBJ

Re: Should the US intervene if Russia/Belarus invades Ukraine?

75
highdesert wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:05 pm
TrueTexan wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:53 pm
CDFingers wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:04 pm Works for me, but the draft lottery in 1970 was the only thing I've ever won: my number was over 300, so unless the VC were coming down my street with fixed bayonets, I wouldn't be drafted--so said my Jr. Year history teacher.

CDFingers
Well I got mine my senior year in 1970 and it was Number 54. Well I first had a HS student deferment. I called the Army Recruiter and asked if they would take a person that is totally blind in one eye. He said no, but is I was deaf in one ear he could take me. Later I had an appointment with my eye doctor to get my eye check. I asked him for a letter to send to the draft board about the fact I am blind in one eye. That got me a 1Y deferment later changed to 4F.

My number was 28 in 1973, but I've had hypertension all my life so I was deferred. I believe that "national service" can be satisfied in may ways and that our "professional military" probably wants to select the best candidates among the most healthy similar to many countries.
I received my number after I turned 18 in July of 1973--I nearly fainted--25! Luckily, they were only drafting 19 year old teens, so I never received a "Greetings" letter.
""If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -- LBJ

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests

cron