Dow drops a thou

So many executive orders, so much twitter. What to do? Well, discuss it here for one...

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YankeeTarheel
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Re: Dow drops a thou

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TrueTexan wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:48 am

I agree, But when you have the likes of Trump and TX Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick screaming to open the economy and damn what the effects will be the market will go up then it will fall faster and deeper than ever. I see the rise today as a grab and then a fall with profit taking.
I wouldn't bet against you on that, TT. Shitheads like Trump, Mnuchin, and Patrick never actually understand that the foundation of "the economy" are the men and women who work in the factories, the offices, the fields, who drive the trucks and the trains, who build the houses and the skyscrapers, who then take that money and buy food, clothing, houses, pay rent / mortgages, buy cars, gas, go to movies, buy toys, etc.

Without them doing that, there is no "economy" at all. And if they will get sick and die in horrible pain they will either stay home instead, or we'll have what happened when De Soto went through what would be several southern states and down the Mississippi, leaving smallpox, measles, and chicken pox in his wake the locals had no resistance to, and it wiped all their societies and cultures out. You can't have an "economy" without people.
""If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -- LBJ

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Re: Dow drops a thou

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no worry, they'll make more.

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Re: Dow drops a thou

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lurker wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:00 am
no worry, they'll make more.
Millennials aren't having babies because they can't afford kids. This won't help that. AI & robots can't do everything. The little right-wing fantasy-land they all live in meets reality when the people rise up and seize their bank accounts.
The border between civilization and savagery is porous and patrolled by opportunists. Resist fascism. Vote like your democracy depends on it.

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Re: Dow drops a thou

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BANKS PRESSURE HEALTH CARE FIRMS TO RAISE PRICES ON CRITICAL DRUGS, MEDICAL SUPPLIES FOR CORONAVIRUS
Slime bags are at it again. More need to get perp walked to a super max near you.

https://theintercept.com/2020/03/19/cor ... e-gouging/
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Re: Dow drops a thou

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I do wonder if enough people are watching all of this to make a difference.
The border between civilization and savagery is porous and patrolled by opportunists. Resist fascism. Vote like your democracy depends on it.

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Re: Dow drops a thou

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K9s wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:52 pm
I do wonder if enough people are watching all of this to make a difference.
I agree, people are fickle and even now partisan lines are holding tightly. Trump's approval rating isn't budging.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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Re: Dow drops a thou

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highdesert wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:51 pm
K9s wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:52 pm
I do wonder if enough people are watching all of this to make a difference.
I agree, people are fickle and even now partisan lines are holding tightly. Trump's approval rating isn't budging.
If a mishandled crisis and a down economy won't budge people, nothing will. Our only option is to outvote them, and vote them out.

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Re: Dow drops a thou

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:yes:

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Re: Dow drops a thou

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kronkmusic wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:54 pm
highdesert wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:51 pm
K9s wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:52 pm
I do wonder if enough people are watching all of this to make a difference.
I agree, people are fickle and even now partisan lines are holding tightly. Trump's approval rating isn't budging.
If a mishandled crisis and a down economy won't budge people, nothing will. Our only option is to outvote them, and vote them out.
Assuming Trump and Barr don't find some shit-ass excuse to get rid of elections.
""If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -- LBJ

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Re: Dow drops a thou

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YankeeTarheel wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:05 pm
kronkmusic wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:54 pm
highdesert wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:51 pm
K9s wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:52 pm
I do wonder if enough people are watching all of this to make a difference.
I agree, people are fickle and even now partisan lines are holding tightly. Trump's approval rating isn't budging.
If a mishandled crisis and a down economy won't budge people, nothing will. Our only option is to outvote them, and vote them out.
Assuming Trump and Barr don't find some shit-ass excuse to get rid of elections.
You don't have to get rid of elections. You need a committee that announces the results, a Senate to confirm and a Court to certify if needed.

Chicago new how to do elections decades ago.
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Re: Dow drops a thou

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That DOJ request for Indefinite Detentions is sounding a lot more like their 2020 election plan instead of a throwaway hope to jail and hold Latinx and Asian people because... racism.
The border between civilization and savagery is porous and patrolled by opportunists. Resist fascism. Vote like your democracy depends on it.

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Re: Dow drops a thou

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Nancy is strong. Let's see what gets to the orange desk.

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Re: Dow drops a thou

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Markets are tepid at best so far today, showing early gains then a steep drop into negative territory, and now floating around 2.5%, all after a $2 TRILLION bailout and promises of another $4 TRILLION in liquidity injections from the Fed. For some context, our entire federal budget is about $4.8 trillion for the entire year, running a roughly $1 trillion deficit. Can't wait to see what happens when the unemployment numbers drop like a heavy thud tomorrow, it will probably completely wipe out yesterday's "historic" gains and whatever minimal perceived value is added today.

People still aren't getting it, our economy since the Bush recession and GFC has been built mostly on debt, which is why our economy can't withstand 2 weeks of people not going to the movies or going on vacation and being forced to order take-out (gasp!) from their favorite restaurants.

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Re: Dow drops a thou

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kronkmusic wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:15 am
Markets are tepid at best so far today, showing early gains then a steep drop into negative territory, and now floating around 2.5%, all after a $2 TRILLION bailout and promises of another $4 TRILLION in liquidity injections from the Fed. For some context, our entire federal budget is about $4.8 trillion for the entire year, running a roughly $1 trillion deficit. Can't wait to see what happens when the unemployment numbers drop like a heavy thud tomorrow, it will probably completely wipe out yesterday's "historic" gains and whatever minimal perceived value is added today.

People still aren't getting it, our economy since the Bush recession and GFC has been built mostly on debt, which is why our economy can't withstand 2 weeks of people not going to the movies or going on vacation and being forced to order take-out (gasp!) from their favorite restaurants.
I expect to see a large inflation rate with this much money injected into the economy. Especially since we won’t have the supply for the demand. We must remember that the deficit and government debt doesn’t matter when theReptilians are in office. But when the Dems are in power the Reptilians scream and demand a deficit reduction and balanced budget. To achieve that they want to cut social programs. Right now they want to cut the SNAP program and it is a Federal Judge is blocking that. They want to cut the Payroll Tax that supports Social Security in the name of helping business. That is another false idea (lie). If the worker is laid off and doesn’t draw a paycheck then the employer doesn’t pay that matching portion of the payroll tax. They don’t want to cut the tax to the worker just the employer. It would be better for the employer to pay more tax and the worker less, then the worker would have more to spend and boost the economy. Notice the reptilians always want to cut social rather than defense spending. I’m all for a strong defense, I grew up in a military family. But when we spend more on the defense budget than the next ten countries combined. Yet the Reptilians want to buy more F-35s The cost for just one F-35B is 122 million. For comparison the F-16D cost 29 million and is still in production for other countries with updates.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/milit ... ghter-jet/
With that Col. John Boyd is getting high fives in heaven.
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Severe Cuts to the defense dept. budget until they can do a real audit and accounting for the money spent by the DoD and its contractors. Use that money for social programs like Medicare For All and Free college education at state sponsored colleges and universities.
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Re: Dow drops a thou

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Money is like cooking oil. None, and the food burns and cooks unevenly. But a deep fryer full of oil is worthless if you don't something to cook in it.
Too little, food dries up and burns and gets tough. Too much and is gets greasy, slippery and not to healthy. All oil and no food and you got nothing.

Money's only REAL value is what you can buy with it. Too much money chasing too few goods--inflation. Too little money chasing too many goods--recession. Lots of money chasing NO goods, and all it is, is bad toilet paper.
""If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -- LBJ

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Re: Dow drops a thou

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kronkmusic wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:15 am
Markets are tepid at best so far today, showing early gains then a steep drop into negative territory, and now floating around 2.5%, all after a $2 TRILLION bailout and promises of another $4 TRILLION in liquidity injections from the Fed. For some context, our entire federal budget is about $4.8 trillion for the entire year, running a roughly $1 trillion deficit. Can't wait to see what happens when the unemployment numbers drop like a heavy thud tomorrow, it will probably completely wipe out yesterday's "historic" gains and whatever minimal perceived value is added today.

People still aren't getting it, our economy since the Bush recession and GFC has been built mostly on debt, which is why our economy can't withstand 2 weeks of people not going to the movies or going on vacation and being forced to order take-out (gasp!) from their favorite restaurants.
The stimulus bill is derailed in the Senate and apparently that affected the market close today. We'll see if they can get it back on track for a vote tomorrow.

Now there is talk of another stimulus bill.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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Re: Dow drops a thou

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The Senate is holding out for the corporations, and the House is holding out for the People. Film at 11.

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Re: Dow drops a thou

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hmm, donors or voters, what to do, what to do?

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Re: Dow drops a thou

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lurker wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:45 pm
hmm, donors or voters, what to do, what to do?
Voters don't put the umbrella in the cocktail and the donors will.
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Re: Dow drops a thou

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In an overwhelming bipartisan vote, the Senate on Wednesday passed a $2-trillion economic stimulus package — the largest ever — designed to pump money directly into Americans’ pockets while also shoring up hospitals, businesses, and state and local governments struggling against the coronavirus pandemic. The $2-trillion price tag is equal to more than half of the $3.5 trillion the federal government expects to collect in taxes this year, and is 9% of the nation’s gross domestic product. “It’s going to take care of people,” President Trump said of the legislation during a news conference, vowing to sign the bill immediately when it reaches his desk.

The House is scheduled to vote on the bill Friday morning.
The real test will be whether the House accepts the bill as it is. Friday’s vote will be held by a voice vote, House Majority Leader Steny H. Hoyer (D-Md.) announced Wednesday evening. That means representatives scattered across the country don’t have to return to Washington for the vote.

“Members who want to come to the House floor to debate this bill will be able to do so. In addition, we are working to ensure that those who are unable to return to Washington may express their views on this legislation remotely,” he told members.
A voice vote is generally determined by which side is the loudest, as decided by the member presiding over the House at the time. The losing side often asks for a recorded vote, which would require Pelosi to recall House members from across the country.

Several House Democrats were also unhappy with the bill, saying it helps business at the expense of people. Michigan Rep. Rashida Tlaib tweeted that she is angry the Senate bill doesn’t help people whose water was shut off for lack of payment during the outbreak.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/ ... oronavirus

Reports that Justin Amash and AOC are not happy with it and could block unanimous consent in the House.
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Re: Dow drops a thou

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The more money they print, the less valuable is each dollar we have. I'm pretty sure I have to spend any extra I might have on a new recurve bow. It will keeps its value better than the dollar.

We can thank Alexander Hamilton.

Back in the Revolutionary War, the States were given lines of credit by the Federal Government. Hamilton knew the States would pay the US back, so he loaned out those pay backs before he actually had the gold in his hands by merely entering the amounts in various columns in his Big Book.

My guess is corporate debt will be forgiven by erasing that amount from that column in the Big Book because trickle down. Private debts like mortgages and car payments? Not so much, because that's where the supply of money is: labor. That's Supply-side economics in a nutshell.

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Re: Dow drops a thou

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Steve Mnuchin: Record-shattering jobless claims ‘are not relevant in the short term

Trump Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin on Thursday appeared to downplay the seriousness of the record-shattering number of jobless claims filed over the last week.

During an interview on CNBC, Mnuchin was asked to comment on the latest jobless claims report showing that 3.3 million Americans had filed for unemployment in just the last week, and he responded that we need to look at the bigger picture of where the economy will be a month from now.

“To be honest, I think these numbers right now aren’t relevant, whether they’re bigger or smaller, in the short term,” he said.

Mnuchin then predicted that much of the economic damage being done right now would be mitigated by the $2 trillion stimulus bill passed by the Senate.

“The good thing about the bill is the president is protecting those people so now, with these plans, small businesses hopefully will be able to hire back a lot of those people last week,” he said. “They didn’t know if they had protections, they didn’t have any cash. They had no choice. Now, with this bill passed by Congress, there are protections. And as I said, hopefully, those workers will be rehired.”
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/03/steve- ... hort-term/

He is more worried where Wall Street will be next week and month if the Stimulus Bill doesn't work for the stock market. To hell with the jobless, they shaped have planned and invested better. They show a lack of superior foresight that the leaders of the economy have. :sarcasm:
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Re: Dow drops a thou

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This economic downturn is going to be worse than 2008. The bailout bounce is temporary, corporations and individuals are leveraged up to their nose in debt like never before, and remember that in 2008 the market continued to fall for months after the temporary bounce with the passage of TARP. In reality, after that initial bounce, which like now is mostly algorithmic trading, the amount of money disbursed through TARP had little to no correlation with actual market performance, it was simply a money grab and in upward transfer of public wealth to private hands. This bailout is 100% the same game being played again, and they're gonna get away with it, again.

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Re: Dow drops a thou

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One way I know this bounce is bullshit and nobody should be buying it: the stocks of the damn cruise lines are seeing significant gains today when we're not entirely sure they'll even be eligible for the kind of bailout money that other industries are getting, and even if this virus disappeared next week there would be a lasting stigma against cruises that will last for years. This is not concrete value appreciation here, it is not based in reality, don't fall for it.

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Re: Dow drops a thou

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The $2 trillion stimulus bill to fight the ills of the coronavirus that appears close to passage brings to mind the outwardly similar government bailout in the autumn of 2008.
You may think this parallel is good news for the stock market, since the 2008 stimulus appeared to work. After all, the bear market came to an end, didn’t it? And equities then entered into an extraordinary and unprecedented bull market that didn’t end until a month ago — 11 years later.

Well, sort of.

Actually, this cheerful narrative glosses over some harsh realities. The bear market in 2008 not only continued following the passage of the 2008 stimulus programs, it became even more ferocious. It lasted more than five additional months and roughly halved the S&P 500 index SPX, 4.270% over its life.

Let’s start this walk down memory lane in September 2008. Stocks had already been falling, but that’s when the housing market in particular and the economy in general collapsed. In that month alone, Lehman Brothers declared bankruptcy and the federal government effectively nationalized Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the two agencies whose goals were guaranteeing home mortgages. The Federal Reserve’s balance sheet mushroomed as it aggressively pursued a quantitative easing program.

This was followed in early October by passage of the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP), the massive stimulus program that directed the U.S. Treasury to purchase assets and equity of banks and other businesses.
The wisdom of all those actions is still hotly debated today. But about one thing there can be no doubt: They did not stop the bear market in its tracks, as you can see in this chart.

What this means for today: Even if you credit the government’s 2008 bailouts with ending the bear market (a big “if”), and even if you believe that the recent stimulus bill will be as effective as those 2008 actions (another big “if”), you shouldn’t be surprised if the stock market continues to fall for another five-plus months and loses nearly half its value.

This perhaps helps to explain why the market’s huge rally on Wednesday of this week fizzled out at the close. What intra-day was a gain of more than 1,200 points for the Dow Jones Industrial Average DJIA, 4.525% turned into a gain of “just” 400 points, after falling more than 800 points in the last few minutes of trading. The Nasdaq Composite COMP, 3.700% ended the session with a loss.
So be careful what you wish for. You need to be prepared for some very dark times in coming months even if the markets follow the 2008 script.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/dont- ... =home-page

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