RAND: massive upward income redistribution

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NegativeApproach
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Re: RAND: massive upward income redistribution

Post by NegativeApproach »

rolandson wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:14 pm
NegativeApproach wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:37 am
That ignores that Biden is a part of that same problem. Clinton Democrats and other establishment candidates have been engaging in the same kind of economic scorched earth policies that the Republicans have. The only difference is that they've pretended to care about the poor and working class.

This is an election between two old rapey rich white dudes. That's the real problem.

Both parties are so out of touch with reality that it hurts. I'm not going to prop one up while the other does the same things to destroy our working class.
I don't disagree with any of this.

Biden, and the entirety of the political elite in this country, are indeed the shining example of imperialistic greed and corruption. But I would argue that the trump and friends are an order of magnitude worse.

At least Biden and his ilk have the decency to pretend to be human when the lights are on.

And I think that for the moment, ridding ourselves of this morbidly grotesque obscenity is a compelling reason to hold one's nose as one reluctantly casts their vote not for Biden, but against the trump.

I don't know of an election that has been as important.
I've heard that this is "the most important election of all time" every single election for my entire life.

So, for argument's sake, lets say that's true. If this is the most important election of all time, do you send in your best, or do you send Joe Biden?

Do you send a crack elite political commando, or do you send an out-of-touch elitist who gets flabbergasted and can't order pasta from Olive Garden without making a gaffe of some sort?

If this is truly the most important election of all time, the DNC should be tried for treason to this country.

Both parties are pulling the wool over our eyes... They always have been, and they always will. As long as people keep buying into these binary choices, we'll keep getting a string of second-rate candidates who are there for the sole purpose of propping up the status quo.

The more you accept those "little" evils, the more evil you'll get.

This country needs a fundamental change, and it could have used it years ago... I'm still waiting for that hope and change that Obama promised, and I was told that we were getting the most liberal president ever... That didn't happen. Now, the right is calling Joe Biden a marxist. If Joe Biden is a Marxist, and that's where the political compass is set, we're in for a very bumpy next few election cycles. How much further to the center-right can the DNC possibly go?

That's a question you really need to ask yourself, because right now, we're running what is essentially a 90s Republican candidate as a Democrat. And one who's vehemently anti-gun at that.

If that's ok with you, then vote for the guy... but I can't hold my nose for this shit any longer.

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Re: RAND: massive upward income redistribution

Post by rolandson »

NegativeApproach wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:58 pm
I've heard that this is "the most important election of all time" every single election for my entire life.

I don't think I said that.
I'm pretty sure I didn't.
In fact, having learned to read the English language at a young age I am able to glance right above where you imply that I've suggested it and can clearly see that what I wrote bears no resemblance to what you suggest. I wrote that I wasn't aware of an election that has been as important. Quite different that the hysteria you've implied don't you think?

No matter.
Compared to Biden, Nixon and Ford were Marxists and Eisenhower an anarchist.

Biden, Pelosi, Schumer, Harris, Clinton, Obama...they are all just more of the same. I get it. No argument. And depending upon where one lives, it may be irrelevant. I'm in Oregon, which will go for Biden because Oregon likes its Kool-Aid. So who I cast a vote for...meh.

But if one is in a state that is up for grabs, their vote matters.

And as it has been clearly demonstrated, we've a madman in the white house. It seems apparent that the first step out of the bucket of shit we find ourselves in is to actually climb out. I'm of the opinion that the enemy of my enemy is my friend...for now.

Nothing of substance will change. It never does. Obama taught us well on that score. We live in a corporate state. Wall street runs the show and there isn't shit we can do about it.

Except to put an end to trump. The same corporate titans that pulled Clinton's, Bush's, and Obama's strings will pull Biden's but we will be free of an insane subliterate who is murdering your fellow citizens by the 100's of thousands and enjoying it.

So if you reside in a state that matters...
It's on you.

ETA: re 2A & Biden...


Joe will say anything in attempts to please whomever he thinks he needs to please. If he were speaking to a group like ours I'm pretty sure he'd blow smoke up our butts too.
Issues surrounding firearms will most likely land with the supremes. How do you think this court will go?

Again, no matter.
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Re: RAND: massive upward income redistribution

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rolandson wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:15 pm
NegativeApproach wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:58 pm
I've heard that this is "the most important election of all time" every single election for my entire life.

I'm in Oregon, which will go for Biden because Oregon likes its Kool-Aid. So who I cast a vote for...meh.

But if one is in a state that is up for grabs, their vote matters.

And as it has been clearly demonstrated, we've a madman in the white house. It seems apparent that the first step out of the bucket of shit we find ourselves in is to actually climb out. I'm of the opinion that the enemy of my enemy is my friend...for now.

Nothing of substance will change. It never does. Obama taught us well on that score. We live in a corporate state. Wall street runs the show and there isn't shit we can do about it.

Except to put an end to trump. The same corporate titans that pulled Clinton's, Bush's, and Obama's strings will pull Biden's but we will be free of an insane subliterate who is murdering your fellow citizens by the 100's of thousands and enjoying it.

So if you reside in a state that matters...
It's on you.
So, the wool is being pulled over our eyes. Your vote only counts if you live in a small handful of states that "matter" for this election, and we're living in a plutocracy with a caste system. You admit all of these things, at least to a small extent.

The problem isn't Trump. Trump is a symptom of the problem. I thought that we believed in root cause mitigation? Because if we don't take care of the root causes of why Trump was elected in the first place, there will just be another Trump to replace him.

That's far more crucial in my mind than anything else right now.

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Re: RAND: massive upward income redistribution

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When we really employ root-cause mitigation, we find neoliberalism: corporations are immortal and can amass money, power, and influence far greater than those of us mere mortals.

So we chase the wisdom of what we can and cannot influence. We take our wind up and deliver the pitch--draw the bow and release the arrow.

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Re: RAND: massive upward income redistribution

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CDFingers wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:24 am
When we really employ root-cause mitigation, we find neoliberalism: corporations are immortal and can amass money, power, and influence far greater than those of us mere mortals.

So we chase the wisdom of what we can and cannot influence. We take our wind up and deliver the pitch--draw the bow and release the arrow.

CDFingers
And herein lays the truth and wisdom as to why a Biden presidency won't be any better than a Trump presidency.

If the deck is stacked against you, refusing the play is a viable option. Other options are to cheat in return, flip the table over, or get rid of the bastards who marked the deck.

Simply playing your hand as if everything is normal is doing a disservice to yourself and all the other players.

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Re: RAND: massive upward income redistribution

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I disagree about the comparison between the two administrations, and therein lie the potentials we should consider. The current administration allows no compromise that benefits the People, taking for itself all profits--this is primitive taking, the lowest and most obscene rung of capitalism. The potential Biden/Harris administration, however, offers the opportunity to continue to elect more progressive legislators because it would not wage total war on any legislation not designed to transfer yet more dollars from the bottom to the top. A Biden/Harris administration would NOT mean certain and grinding poverty for the lower 30%, where we know the current administration would just as soon see them all die so as not to be a drag on corporate profits.

Perhaps it's a subtle difference.

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Re: RAND: massive upward income redistribution

Post by YankeeTarheel »

That's why Republicans for Trump are cheating every way they can.

What I don't get is why Jeff Bezos isn't dumping billions, even tens of billions into beating Trump and taking back the Senate. Trump HATES Bezos to the bottom of his rotting soulless soul, and wants to destroy Amazon and the Washington Post. Bezos is worth $200 billion, roughly. Were I him, I'd be willing to spend at least half that to beat Trump, spending it on ads, voter registration, GOTV, the best election lawyers in the land, no matter what it takes.

Why? Because I believe that Jeff Bezos is to Donald Trump what Mikhail Khodorkovsky was to Vladimir Putin, the richest man in the nation. Putin had him arrested, convicted (with Putin judges) and most of Mikhail Khodorkovsky's entire fortune of $15 billion was stolen and ended up owned by Putin. The lawyer investigating it was murdered and Khodorkovsky served 10 years before Putin "pardoned" him, and he went into exile. All the other Russian billionaires were informed if they didn't want to face the same fate to turn over half of their fortunes to Putin, personally. They did.

IOW, if Trump wins, with Bill Barr as his hatchet man, it's obvious that Bezos WILL be arrested on some fake charge, his assets seized under the dubious and unconstitutional "illegal gains" laws, and those billions will be filtered into the Trump accounts, while Amazon and the WaPo are shut down. Barr is already testing the waters with his orders of charging people who are alleged to have committed simple vandalism with "sedition" and looking to arrest Democratic mayors of large cities.

That's why I think Bezos is making a catastrophic mistake not spending whatever it takes to bring Trump down, even if it takes 3/4 of his $200 billion fortune. I mean, who cannot live on $50 billion dollars?
""If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -- LBJ

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Re: RAND: massive upward income redistribution

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Most of Bezos' wealth is in Amazon stock options. He probably has 50 billion or so laying around in cash, bonds, CD's, T Bills. So when he needs money to fuel his jet he cashes in some of those fixed income instruments.

My guess is he's hanging on waiting to see what happens and not wanting to antagonize trump. The justice system being very different here than it is in Russia, Bezos would have a lot of options available if trump tried to trump up criminal charges against him. If trump wins Bezos might slowly and secretly ramp up a presidential challenge for 2024.
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Re: RAND: massive upward income redistribution

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harriss wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:30 pm
If trump wins Bezos might slowly and secretly ramp up a presidential challenge for 2024.
Oh goodie. Another billionaire to vote for. :evil:

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Re: RAND: massive upward income redistribution

Post by YankeeTarheel »

harriss wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:30 pm
Most of Bezos' wealth is in Amazon stock options. He probably has 50 billion or so laying around in cash, bonds, CD's, T Bills. So when he needs money to fuel his jet he cashes in some of those fixed income instruments.

My guess is he's hanging on waiting to see what happens and not wanting to antagonize trump. The justice system being very different here than it is in Russia, Bezos would have a lot of options available if trump tried to trump up criminal charges against him. If trump wins Bezos might slowly and secretly ramp up a presidential challenge for 2024.
Almost every Trump judge has, no matter the Law, Judicial Law, nor precedent, decided in favor of Trump. Sometimes they bend the Law like a pretzel, sometimes they simply ignore it. Given that, if Barr comes up with charges against Bezos, and cherry-picks Trump judges to put him in front of, and gets bail denied, you'll KNOW Trump's "Gazprom" is Amazon.
""If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -- LBJ

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Re: RAND: massive upward income redistribution

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YankeeTarheel wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:24 pm

Almost every Trump judge has, no matter the Law, Judicial Law, nor precedent, decided in favor of Trump. Sometimes they bend the Law like a pretzel, sometimes they simply ignore it. Given that, if Barr comes up with charges against Bezos, and cherry-picks Trump judges to put him in front of, and gets bail denied, you'll KNOW Trump's "Gazprom" is Amazon.
Sounds familiar, There is the law, but there is the unwritten National Socialist Party Trump Law that supersedes it
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer-Kissinger
Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired.-Swift

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Re: RAND: massive upward income redistribution

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YankeeTarheel wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:24 pm

Almost every Trump judge has, no matter the Law, Judicial Law, nor precedent, decided in favor of Trump. Sometimes they bend the Law like a pretzel, sometimes they simply ignore it. Given that, if Barr comes up with charges against Bezos, and cherry-picks Trump judges to put him in front of, and gets bail denied, you'll KNOW Trump's "Gazprom" is Amazon.
Whatever you say.
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Re: RAND: massive upward income redistribution

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CDFingers wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:41 pm
I disagree about the comparison between the two administrations, and therein lie the potentials we should consider. The current administration allows no compromise that benefits the People, taking for itself all profits--this is primitive taking, the lowest and most obscene rung of capitalism. The potential Biden/Harris administration, however, offers the opportunity to continue to elect more progressive legislators because it would not wage total war on any legislation not designed to transfer yet more dollars from the bottom to the top. A Biden/Harris administration would NOT mean certain and grinding poverty for the lower 30%, where we know the current administration would just as soon see them all die so as not to be a drag on corporate profits.

Perhaps it's a subtle difference.

CDFingers
There's a time for subtlety... This is not it.

We have people dying in droves in great part because of our expensive (and shitty) corporate health care, that Biden is promising to expand (rather than replace with a decent option that would bring us in line with the 1st world).

That's a huge part of the problem.

We have millions unemployed, the highest incarceration levels in the world, and someone who wrote the laws that helped institute the mass incarceration that we now see being our "best" shot at changing the system?

Come on...

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Re: RAND: massive upward income redistribution

Post by rolandson »

NegativeApproach wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:28 pm


There's a time for subtlety... This is not it.

We have people dying in droves in great part because of our expensive (and shitty) corporate health care, that Biden is promising to expand (rather than replace with a decent option that would bring us in line with the 1st world).

That's a huge part of the problem.

We have millions unemployed, the highest incarceration levels in the world, and someone who wrote the laws that helped institute the mass incarceration that we now see being our "best" shot at changing the system?

Come on...
Yes, you've been making this opinion abundantly clear, well, except for the part about people dying, that's a new addition. But I get it, you don't like the choice being offered. So enlighten us...what do you propose?

What's your solution?
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Re: RAND: massive upward income redistribution

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rolandson wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:23 pm

Yes, you've been making this opinion abundantly clear, well, except for the part about people dying, that's a new addition. But I get it, you don't like the choice being offered. So enlighten us...what do you propose?

What's your solution?
First I propose everyone take a deep breath. Then don't go off half cocked. The only solution is vote. If you don't like Biden then don't vote. It's that simple.
Is ignorance bliss? NO! It's suffering. Suffering ends when ignorance ends.

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Re: RAND: massive upward income redistribution

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Let's listen to what Beau Of The Fifth Column has to say about the election and the supreme court,

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Re: RAND: massive upward income redistribution

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The differences are far from subtle, which I thought was obvious.

Still, voting is the best option.


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Re: RAND: massive upward income redistribution

Post by rolandson »

Pew has a lot to say on the subject, the gist of which suggests that because of registered voters who sat out the 2016 general election, we are blessed today with the obscenity that is the current administration.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... 0in%202012.

I get it. Last go-round many, myself included, were convinced that Hillary was a shoe in. I couldn't in my wildest nightmare imagine a world with this horror show as president.

Until I awoke the next morning.

Daughter is making plans to expat to Denmark, son to Canada, sister to Mexico. Dearest friend on the planet is currently awaiting word from the Canadians regarding his citizenship (his birth parents were Canadian)...and spouse and I have Japan to flee to. Refugees all and we're not alone.

But the sad part is, the stench of trump isn't constrained by borders.
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Re: RAND: massive upward income redistribution

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Trump is the highest price (in more ways that one) we've ever paid for misplaced poll expectations in 2016.
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Re: RAND: massive upward income redistribution

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practically all of these monsters eventually need a war to feed it.

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Re: RAND: massive upward income redistribution

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I'm on my hill.

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Re: RAND: massive upward income redistribution

Post by rolandson »

CDFingers wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:16 pm
I'm on my hill.

CDFingers
Someone wrote a song about that. Pretty good song.


Mind if we join ya?
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Re: RAND: massive upward income redistribution

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It's waiting to take us away.

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Re: RAND: massive upward income redistribution

Post by wings »

200,000 dead because of this administration's flagrant incompetence in the face of Covid-19.

And you say there's no difference between the parties? There's no subtlety here.

You can stand against them, or you can tolerate their offenses against the people and Constitution. Weighed against the Dems, it isn't even close. I'll take a two party system with the Dems as the conservative party any day of the week, on any ground you choose, but the GOP must never, ever be tolerated in office again.

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Re: RAND: massive upward income redistribution

Post by CDFingers »

wings wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:56 pm
the GOP must never, ever be tolerated in office again.
They feel it. That's why many are engaged in obvious grifting while the rest engage in the scorched-Earth tactics.

I believe the coming administration must be ruthless in its pursuit of lawbreakers and in their subsequent prosecution.

CDFingers
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