pocket DA smokeless powder 22 revolvers?

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Re: pocket DA smokeless powder 22 revolvers?

#26 Post by lurker » Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:15 pm

kinda like these?
frasierbauer.jpg

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Re: pocket DA smokeless powder 22 revolvers?

#27 Post by wooglin » Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:44 pm

UncleJon wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:53 pm if I was going to carry and carry something of that size I’d choose my LCR in 327 loaded with 32 long wadcutters, less recoil than a 38 but performance at least on par with the best 22mag ammo but with a much lighter trigger.
Forget the wadcutters and go with 32 H&R.

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Re: pocket DA smokeless powder 22 revolvers?

#28 Post by UncleJon » Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:15 pm

sig230 wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:15 am In small calibers I tend to stick to ball ammo. The advantage to small calibers is added control and repeatability under stressful conditions.
Yeah you want penetration and low recoil makes accurate follow up shots easier.
sig230 wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:15 am And a carry permit is not tattooed on your forehead. The permit sits in your wallet and like your drivers license or insurance card only get shown when someone asks to see them.
Yes, I’m talking about the social aspects of carrying. The older I get the less I care about this type of stuff but carrying where I live would come with some stigma. If I did I wouldn’t tell most people that I know and more often than not the gun would be left at home or hidden somewhere in my car.
sig230 wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:15 am Buy the way, some of us here actually identify as republican conservatives.
This is good to know.
sig230 wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:15 am I'm one. But you need to understand that today's Grand Old Party is but a shadow of the variety or positions of the party in the past. Although we often point at Richard Nixon as an example of a bad person, he was instrumental in creating many of the environmental and work place safety and labor laws and inclusive bidding policies that the current Dulce is trying to destroy. He created the EPA and the Clean Air Act and stopped dumping in the Great Lakes and started monitoring vehicle emissions among his many accomplishments. There was also the Marine Mammal Protection Act, the Safe Drinking Water Act, the Endangered Species Act.

If the nation is going to succeed we need to see both Conservative and Liberals working together on common goals instead of the current madness.
Yes the current Republican Party is off the rails, no doubt. You are the type of conservative that I tend to get along with. I wish our two political parties could do more together to fix our broken system. My extended family leans Democrat but there are some Republicans and conservatives in the mix, sadly they and I have been generally unable to have civil conversations about politics, current events, society, etc so we agree to try to avoid these topics and just enjoy our meals and shooting and whatever else together. Back to the dating thing, who knows really, I try to stay open minded about all things but developing a deep romantic connection with and also getting along well with someone that isn’t at least a moderate or liberal is hard for me to imagine.

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Re: pocket DA smokeless powder 22 revolvers?

#29 Post by UncleJon » Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:28 pm

senorgrand wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:28 am back to the op - one of the challenges of making a truly tiny DA rimfire revolver is getting the trigger to work. The J frame can be tuned to get a bit better than the out-of-the-box lcr, but the triggers are still very heavy in DA because of the geometry and the incredible force needed to ignite the rimfire round. Making the guns any smaller could make trigger pull nearly impossible. If you wanted to go down to velodog size, you would probably have to go to at least 25 acp.
Yes a 25 that doesn’t require moon clips or 32acp or 32s&w/long wad to keep the length down. It should be possible to keep the j frame and LCR trigger guts but shrink everything else. The Taurus 85 ‘View’ is a good example. Then imagine further modifications and shrinkage to build it around an NAA size cylinder.
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Re: pocket DA smokeless powder 22 revolvers?

#30 Post by UncleJon » Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:34 pm

wooglin wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:44 pm
UncleJon wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:53 pm if I was going to carry and carry something of that size I’d choose my LCR in 327 loaded with 32 long wadcutters, less recoil than a 38 but performance at least on par with the best 22mag ammo but with a much lighter trigger.
Forget the wadcutters and go with 32 H&R.
32 long wadcutters will go over 12” in gel, that’s good enough for me and they cut. H&R magnum is probably twice the recoil and tests show that hollow points in that caliber don’t open up much out of a 2” barrel anyway.

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Re: pocket DA smokeless powder 22 revolvers?

#31 Post by UncleJon » Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:45 am

My mind came back to this topic again.

I’m wondering if any company has ever produced and sold:

-a snubnose DAO concealed hammer revolver

-that is no bigger in frame size than the Smith M or H&R Young America(both of which are smaller than the Smith I frame which is a little bit smaller than the J)

-with a trigger guard

-chambered in smokeless powder caliber 22lr

-can handle modern high velocity 22lr ammo

-or if not was at least chambered in smokeless 22lr when it was released

-isn’t junk

What I’m seeing in my Google searches are guns cambered in 22 long and similar length 22 rimfire rounds. It is hard to get info on these 22s, the 32s get way more attention. I mostly just think it could be fun to own and shoot one of these, not thinking of such a gun as the ultimate pocket gun or whatever. Top break, swing out, or pin.

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Re: pocket DA smokeless powder 22 revolvers?

#32 Post by JoelB » Sat May 02, 2020 3:04 pm

This pre-lock Model 317 S&W is feather light and has a very nice double action trigger.

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hic

I also agree with Marlene that racism has always been a feature of conservatism in the US, but I would also add Capitalism driven by the Protestant Ethic to that.

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Re: pocket DA smokeless powder 22 revolvers?

#33 Post by UncleJon » Sun May 03, 2020 2:03 pm

JoelB wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 3:04 pm This pre-lock Model 317 S&W is feather light and has a very nice double action trigger.

Image
hic
Nice, this is very similar to their current ultra light 22 j frame. With a shortened barrel and grip it would be closer in size to what I’m talking about.

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Re: pocket DA smokeless powder 22 revolvers?

#34 Post by JoelB » Sun May 03, 2020 2:52 pm

I purposely mention "pre-lock" not because the locks themselves screwed up anything, but S&W used that change to redo the trigger components to lower their cost and that screwed up the trigger pull.

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Re: pocket DA smokeless powder 22 revolvers?

#35 Post by Marlene » Sun May 03, 2020 8:20 pm

I love that flat top hammer spur.
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Re: pocket DA smokeless powder 22 revolvers?

#36 Post by UncleJon » Mon May 04, 2020 12:49 am

JoelB wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 2:52 pm I purposely mention "pre-lock" not because the locks themselves screwed up anything, but S&W used that change to redo the trigger components to lower their cost and that screwed up the trigger pull.
Interesting. I wonder how that old trigger compares to the 22lr Ruger LCR trigger. Also that’s a real bummer, the modern super light 22 Smiths are still not cheap. Do you know if they made the same gun in 22mag or an ultra light 22mag with basically the same trigger components(with a heavier spring obviously)?

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Re: pocket DA smokeless powder 22 revolvers?

#37 Post by UncleJon » Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:17 pm

Just picked this up- 1920s “U.S. Revolver Co” DAO 22 rimfire made by Iver Johnson. 10.9 oz. Will chamber 22lr but I probably won’t shoot anything more powerful than 22 short in it. Hammer fired, no safety transfer bar like the IJ “hammerless” models. I will see how much force it takes to smash off a shot at my first range trip with it. I’m already wondering if it could handle high velocity rounds were I to have someone make a replacement cylinder for it...
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Re: pocket DA smokeless powder 22 revolvers?

#38 Post by UncleJon » Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:27 pm

Since I can’t figure out how to include more than 3 pictures in one post here is another post. 327 LCR for size comparison. This thing is TINY and would be itty bitty with the barrel shortened.
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Re: pocket DA smokeless powder 22 revolvers?

#39 Post by nigel » Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:23 am

That's a pretty little wheel gun.
You could try the CCI Quiet 22 round if you want to treat it gently.
https://www.cci-ammunition.com/rimfire/ ... 6-960.html
ImageImageImage
Chamber's empty, magazine's full, safety's broken.

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Re: pocket DA smokeless powder 22 revolvers?

#40 Post by UncleJon » Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:42 am

nigel wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:23 am That's a pretty little wheel gun.
You could try the CCI Quiet 22 round if you want to treat it gently.
https://www.cci-ammunition.com/rimfire/ ... 6-960.html
Thank ya, I agree. I kind of like how the bluing is worn. Oldest gun I’ve ever owned.

I might still have some of that left. It’s probably similar to short or long for pressure.

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Re: pocket DA smokeless powder 22 revolvers?

#41 Post by damnitman » Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:37 am

The problem with the .22, 25, and .32 as a pocket carry is that they are too ineffective in carrying out their primary purpose. The .32 is not nearly as deadly today as it was in the 1920s... Yep, that is true. Before modern antibiotics, a belly wound with a .32 would have had a good chance of causing death, therefore, they were a good deterrent. In a defensive situation today, you best disable the attacker as quickly as possible and that requires more bang than a .32 can provide.

I have gathered in some old top-breaks just for kicks and giggles and most of the ones I have are for smokeless powder. While these are sized to fit a coat pocket, or perhaps a pants pocket, they are just range toys. Top breaks have a engineering limit to how much ooomph they can survive. Two piece frames and tiny latches just can't hold up to large calibers and the modern powder it takes to push them

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Re: pocket DA smokeless powder 22 revolvers?

#42 Post by UncleJon » Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:01 pm

damnitman wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:37 am The problem with the .22, 25, and .32 as a pocket carry is that they are too ineffective in carrying out their primary purpose. The .32 is not nearly as deadly today as it was in the 1920s... Yep, that is true. Before modern antibiotics, a belly wound with a .32 would have had a good chance of causing death, therefore, they were a good deterrent. In a defensive situation today, you best disable the attacker as quickly as possible and that requires more bang than a .32 can provide.

I have gathered in some old top-breaks just for kicks and giggles and most of the ones I have are for smokeless powder. While these are sized to fit a coat pocket, or perhaps a pants pocket, they are just range toys. Top breaks have a engineering limit to how much ooomph they can survive. Two piece frames and tiny latches just can't hold up to large calibers and the modern powder it takes to push them
I don’t carry currently/yet(?) but if I was to start I can’t imagine doing anything other than pocket carry, switch my wallet to my left pocket on top of my phone and put a pocket gun in a pocket holder in my right pocket. I can shoot small 380s but my hand doesn’t like them and it’s not generally enjoyable so I’d carry something in 22 or 25 even though those calibers are less likely to stop attackers. We all have to decide what calibers are effective enough for us. Most people can get more shots on target more quickly with the lowest recoiling calibers so there is that.

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Re: pocket DA smokeless powder 22 revolvers?

#43 Post by sig230 » Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:26 pm

UncleJon wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:01 pm I don’t carry currently/yet(?) but if I was to start I can’t imagine doing anything other than pocket carry, switch my wallet to my left pocket on top of my phone and put a pocket gun in a pocket holder in my right pocket. I can shoot small 380s but my hand doesn’t like them and it’s not generally enjoyable so I’d carry something in 22 or 25 even though those calibers are less likely to stop attackers. We all have to decide what calibers are effective enough for us. Most people can get more shots on target more quickly with the lowest recoiling calibers so there is that.
Back in 1968 the importation of small caliber pocketable handguns in 22LR, 25acp and 32acp was banned; not because they were ineffective, inefficient, unreliable and hard to conceal but because they were effective, efficient, reliable, easy to conceal and not made here.

The problem was that they did work and also pulled sales away from the bigger American Made Iron.
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Re: pocket DA smokeless powder 22 revolvers?

#44 Post by UncleJon » Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:04 am

sig230 wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:26 pm
UncleJon wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:01 pm I don’t carry currently/yet(?) but if I was to start I can’t imagine doing anything other than pocket carry, switch my wallet to my left pocket on top of my phone and put a pocket gun in a pocket holder in my right pocket. I can shoot small 380s but my hand doesn’t like them and it’s not generally enjoyable so I’d carry something in 22 or 25 even though those calibers are less likely to stop attackers. We all have to decide what calibers are effective enough for us. Most people can get more shots on target more quickly with the lowest recoiling calibers so there is that.
Back in 1968 the importation of small caliber pocketable handguns in 22LR, 25acp and 32acp was banned; not because they were ineffective, inefficient, unreliable and hard to conceal but because they were effective, efficient, reliable, easy to conceal and not made here.

The problem was that they did work and also pulled sales away from the bigger American Made Iron.
Protectionist trickery and then some of the import pistols started to be made in the US.

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Re: pocket DA smokeless powder 22 revolvers?

#45 Post by UncleJon » Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:20 am

damnitman wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:37 am I have gathered in some old top-breaks just for kicks and giggles and most of the ones I have are for smokeless powder. While these are sized to fit a coat pocket, or perhaps a pants pocket, they are just range toys. Top breaks have a engineering limit to how much ooomph they can survive. Two piece frames and tiny latches just can't hold up to large calibers and the modern powder it takes to push them
Do you by chance happen to have a small frame smokeless third model Iver Johnson Safety model with a transfer bar? I’m very curious about these. I saw one recently at a gun shop but it was a black powder model.

In general do you think the one piece frame pull pin and swing out cylinder models are a good bit stronger than the top breaks? Talking pre-WWII. I stumbled upon a thread on another forum in which a member was talking about shooting 32 long wadcutters in a 32 S&W(short) revolver. Pressures were discussed and it lead me to believe that the slower 32 long wads are probably fine in 32 S&W revolvers so long as the individual gun is safe to shoot in the first place.

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Re: pocket DA smokeless powder 22 revolvers?

#46 Post by UncleJon » Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:50 pm

Took this little puppy to the range today. Only shot the super weak Colibri ammo through it and it was shaving lead some of the time which I found when emptying the cylinder, didn’t feel anything blasting back at me though. When you pull the trigger back until it’s just about to release the cylinder has a little bit of play. I’m wondering how tight these guns were when new and if a gunsmith who is good with revolvers could get it to tighten up enough to be safe to fire shorts and longs. Is it worth messing with or should I just keep it as a collectible and not shoot it? The trigger isn’t really too bad and it was light striking an average of 1 round per cylinder. Shoots about a foot high from point of aim with the Colibri at 15 feet, this ammo shoots a bit low if anything in my Ruger Bearcat. Shot some Velocitors in the Bearcat and they produce a satisfying amount of recoil. Also shot my new LCP II 22lr which has at least 50% of the felt recoil of a Keltec P32 believe it or not! I love 22s.
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Re: pocket DA smokeless powder 22 revolvers?

#47 Post by UncleJon » Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:11 pm

Got an H&R Young America in 22 rimfire today. It’s a little bit smaller than the US Revolver Co model and the cylinder walls are even thinner but it appears to be otherwise exactly the same other than that it is DA/SA rather than DAO. Took it to the range and fired a couple cylinders of the very low power primer only Colibri ammo and a couple of Remington Golden Bullet short. All of the rounds went off which didn’t surprise me as the trigger pull is awful but the cylinder locks up tight and I didn’t see any lead rings when emptying the cases. I saved a bunch of empty cases so I can dry fire it a little bit at home. NOT the type of gun you put 100 or 200 rounds through in a session. I am very pleased that it does shoot more or less to point of aim. IF I decide to pocket carry at some point in the future I wouldn’t hesitate to load it with longs even though they are only slightly more powerful than shorts. The hammer sits between rounds when it’s loaded and there is absolutely no way it could accidentally fire when carried in this manner considering the strength needed to pull the trigger and to cock the hammer. There is a “Vest Pocket” model which looks to be this same gun with a spurless hammer and very short barrel but it would probably reduce the velocity down to barely enough to pierce human skin. I was hoping to be done buying these tiny old revolvers after getting this one but I am still curious about the Iver Johnson “Safety Automatic” model in 32S&W.
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Re: pocket DA smokeless powder 22 revolvers?

#48 Post by darmok » Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:23 am

Though it covers semi-autos in addition to revolvers, this series discusses modern small-caliber pocket revolvers in some depth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv6PxB2 ... JRinqP5S1B

Ad warning: Lucky Gunner plugs their mail-order ammo supply business at the end of each instalment.

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Re: pocket DA smokeless powder 22 revolvers?

#49 Post by UncleJon » Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:37 pm

darmok wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:23 am Though it covers semi-autos in addition to revolvers, this series discusses modern small-caliber pocket revolvers in some depth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv6PxB2 ... JRinqP5S1B

Ad warning: Lucky Gunner plugs their mail-order ammo supply business at the end of each instalment.
I’ve watched this video before and am a big fan of their videos, they are very informative.

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