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AndyH wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:12 am Does that mean nobody here is making phone calls?
Not me, said the flea. Call it complacency if you wish.

Here's the reality I've come to: they don't care (well, not unless you're a big doner or represent a significant pile of votes). 25,000 people, half of them armed show up to rally against gun control. Political response: "hold my beer." Do you really think a phone call does anything to these people beyond keeping a few interns employed? (and I don't mean this as dismissive of your efforts--you're a better citizen than I--just that I'll not spend what little free time I have pissing into this particular impeachment tornado. My federal representation of Harris and Feinstein already rabidly support impeachment, as does Huffman.)

Now at a local level, it's different. Phone calls, letters, emails and showing up at meetings does work. As K9s has suggested, that's where your voice actually matters and where I apply mine.

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The Republicans can't dispute the facts. They can't even really attack the process without lying about it i.e. "Republicans weren't allowed in the scif". So now their last argument is "you can't impeach him because it's not a crime." It's also not a crime for the president to offer pardons for anyone who murders his political rivals.

Mark my words: if Trump loses the 2020 election, he is not leaving the office willingly or peacefully. He will, with the full support of the Republican party, pull the dirtiest of tricks to stay in power. War? Martial law? It's all on the table for them. And if and when he does leave, he won't go quietly. There will be no graceful transfer of power. He'll continue to cast doubt from the sidelines, further divide the country, and create his own world where he is still the leader of his own America despite who's occupying the White House.

The biggest thing I've learned about this impeachment is that this is going to get much worse before it gets any better. I know we've been saying this for awhile, but my biggest fear is that we're nowhere near rock bottom yet.

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kronkmusic wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:24 pm The Republicans can't dispute the facts. They can't even really attack the process without lying about it i.e. "Republicans weren't allowed in the scif". So now their last argument is "you can't impeach him because it's not a crime." It's also not a crime for the president to offer pardons for anyone who murders his political rivals.

Mark my words: if Trump loses the 2020 election, he is not leaving the office willingly or peacefully. He will, with the full support of the Republican party, pull the dirtiest of tricks to stay in power. War? Martial law? It's all on the table for them. And if and when he does leave, he won't go quietly. There will be no graceful transfer of power. He'll continue to cast doubt from the sidelines, further divide the country, and create his own world where he is still the leader of his own America despite who's occupying the White House.

The biggest thing I've learned about this impeachment is that this is going to get much worse before it gets any better. I know we've been saying this for awhile, but my biggest fear is that we're nowhere near rock bottom yet.
Every time we think it can't get worse, it does. I expect a lot of pre-written executive orders and pardons if Trump loses (or wins) to be released right after the elections. Win or lose, he is free to do what he wants for several weeks. No one will stop him.

Vote for the most honest candidates you can - local/state/national. You can only do your best.
It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach.

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

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How are Senate Republicans supposed to defend their impeachment vote?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... ment-vote/
In sum, the “nothing matters, just lie” mode of politics only applies within the Trump cult. As soon as you leave the bubble to encounter voters, the media or opponents who know better, your talking points make you sound dumb or corrupt or both.
It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach.

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

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It's all over.
Yesterday, Adam Schiff related to the Senate that a Trump representative told CBS News that ANY Republican Senator who votes "against" the President will find their head on a pike. Schiff didn't say it. A Trump mouthpiece did.
Lisa Murkowski, considered one of the between 4 and 9 GOP senators who could vote for witnesses and documents said "That's when he lost me!"
Also it was Murkowski and Collins who sent the note to CJ Roberts complaining about Jerry Nadler calling out the President's lawyers for blatant lying, leading Roberts, who KNOWS they lied (adequate cause for disbarment) to chastise both sides to be "civil".

In other words, Schiff was absolutely right--and the Republican Senators are TERRIFIED and shitting themselves at the THOUGHT of voting against Trump. But Murkowski gave away the game--Republicans will use ANY thread, ANY fig leaf for "cover" to acquit, without evidence or witnesses. I keep thinking of Robert DeNiro as Al Capone grinning in front of a totally fixed judge and jury. That's Trump. But there's no judge to swap juries.....

It's all over and they might as well move to "dismiss" and it will pass AT LEAST 53-47, maybe 55-45 because of DINOs....but Trump will die as the 3rd President impeached.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

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AndyH wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:49 pm I think I just heard Ken Starr say that while many in government can be removed from office after committing a crime, but that the bar should be raised for presidents - simply committing a crime is not enough. :shock:
What then, does it take to be removed from office?

For a start ignoring sexual assault by football players at a religious university. Hanging out with billionaire pedophiles and making deals to keep them from getting the sentence they deserve. I'm sorry that is his defense teams major players. Maybe getting caught having a blowjob in the oval office? Nope, been there and he got off.

This might work, being discovered having an affair with the Sec. of Transportation while her husband is trying to keep you in office.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

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Sekulow is back after Starr finished his 'historical overview'. One of the videos used against the House was Pelosi handing out pens. Clearly not a 'solemn' moment in the house, and they didn't even have to take an oath to be impartial. Then he went back to lying. Did you know that Ukraine didn't even know about the 'hold' on military aid for a month until after the phone call? :sick:

Re: Happy Hunger...er...Trial Games!

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AndyH wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:18 pm Sekulow is back after Starr finished his 'historical overview'. One of the videos used against the House was Pelosi handing out pens. Clearly not a 'solemn' moment in the house, and they didn't even have to take an oath to be impartial. Then he went back to lying. Did you know that Ukraine didn't even know about the 'hold' on military aid for a month until after the phone call? :sick:
I hope the security people are keeping the fire extinguishers handy for Liar Liar Pants on Fire defense.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: Happy Hunger...er...Trial Games!

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Starr's presentation was a tennis racket--holes tied together with string. It was complete and total bullshit, and he VERY carefully tip-toed around the fact that the Independent Prosecutors Act was killed in bi-partisan agreement BECAUSE one Kenneth Starr TOTALLY abused it! His JOB was to investigate White Water. He ended up aiding the Paula Jones harassment lawsuit, and helped set up the trap where Clinton lied under oath about a totally NON-material consensual sexual relationship. Starr, Hyde, and Gingrich rode that THIN thread to Impeachment.

Starr RIPPED the House for violating the "Rodino Rule" that NO Article of Impeachment shall leave the Judiciary Committee to the House floor without bi-partisan. Yet Starr CONVENIENTLY ignored the FACT that in the Clinton Impeachment that HE engineered, that not ONE of the Articles that Henry Hyde's Judiciary Committee had a SINGLE Democratic vote!

Ironically, there was ONE "Bi-partisan" vote on whether Clinton committed perjury in the Paula Jones case. While the article passed with NO Democratic votes, one Republican broke with his party to vote "NO". You won't believe who that was....It was, and I kid you not, Lindsey Graham!

Starr's argument that partisan articles of impeachment isn't valid is bullshit because it was OK with Republicans when they were Impeaching a Democratic President.

Starr flat-out LIED when he said Clinton "clearly" committed perjury. Perjury, as JUDGE Starr well knows, requires the testimony to be MATERIAL. Since the Lewinsky relationship was consensual, it was NOT material to a harassment case, and it was so ruled.

Starr had to dig DEEP to find a rare scholar who said Impeachment must be for commission of a crime...and conveniently ignored the GAO's assertion that a crime WAS committed.

Holes strung together with string.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

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What is the statute of limitations on "lying to Congress"? It's a crime, and the GOP alleges laws should be enforced (well, anyone but POTUS).

They don't have the guts to haul these guys up on charges, but they would do it to any of us and claim "law and order".
It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach.

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

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They keep pounding on 'executive privilege' even though the administration didn't actually invoke it. They'll have confirmation bias on their side for a good portion of the country and a majority in the Senate. Of course, Trump will regain his senses after he's exonerated in the Senate, understanding his close call. :roll: Term 2, the sequel isn't going to be fun, I don't think.

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They are still arguing out of both sides of their mouth.
1) They are defending Obama's use of Executive Privilege.
2) They are saying that an Impeachment Inquiry doesn't supersede Executive Privilege.
3) They claim that the House should have called witnesses and subpoenaed documents.
4) But they claim has every RIGHT to deny every witness and document.
5) They claim that the Impeachment Inquiry wasn't "legitimate" because it didn't follow rules the Republicans invented out of thin air.
6) But....Donald Trump has never formally invoked Executive Privilege. Never. Because EP cannot be invoked without going through a formal process, that is is TOTALLY granular, not "general". That would have REQUIRED Trump to identify line by line, document by document, and topic by topic for witness testimony. And THAT would have revealed just how criminal ALL of his actions are.
7) NO President before Trump ever invoked such incredibly broad EP...without ever, EVER formally invoking it!
8) The Supreme Court as far back as Nixon ruled the Executive Privilege cannot be used to stymie an Impeachment Inquiry.

It's a circular, contradictory argument. Like EVERY Trump argument it's BULLSHIT!
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

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Fox News Anchor Chris Wallace Tears Into Conservative Pundit: ‘Get Your Facts Straight!’

https://www.thedailybeast.com/fox-news- ... s-straight
Sparks flew Monday on the Fox News set between Fox News anchor Chris Wallace and conservative contributor Katie Pavlich, with Wallace demanding his colleague get her “facts straight” after Pavlich insisted that certain witnesses had not been called in the impeachment trial.

Moments before President Donald Trump’s defense team began its arguments in the Senate impeachment trial, Pavlich noted during Fox’s pregame coverage that while Republican senators are now weighing whether to call former National Security Adviser John Bolton following his bombshell claims, the House should have presented a more thorough case.

“The Senate is not the House, the House did not come with a complete case, and every impeachment beforehand, the witnesses that were called had been called in the House before being brought to the Senate,” she insisted. “So there are questions here about the process.”

“That’s not true, that’s not true," Wallace interrupted. “They hadn’t all been called in the House, and in the Clinton impeachment, they’d been called by the general independent counsel. They had not been called by the House.”

After Pavlich claimed that was due to an “extensive Justice Department investigation,” Wallace agreed but pointed out that she was “just wrong” to claim that all impeachment witnesses were previously called by the House.

“Let me finish. Before the articles were sent to the House, the grand jury material in the Clinton impeachment were handed to the House as part of the articles and given to the Senate,” the right-wing pundit said. “They were not given after the House voted for those articles. That is the difference. The process does matter.”

As anchor Bret Baier attempted to have Wallace give his “final thoughts,” the Fox News Sunday host—who has a history of tangling with the network’s opinion personalities—continued to highlight that what Pavlich said “just isn’t true.”

“The fact of the matter was is that the whistleblower information was given to the inspector general, who gave it to the Justice Department,” Wallace declared, clearly perturbed. “The Justice Department decided not to investigate, and that is why it went to the House.”

“So to say that in the Clinton investigation these people were interviewed by the House, one, they weren’t,” he continued. “And to say it wasn’t done by the Justice Department, because the Justice Department refused to carry out the investigation. Get your facts straight!”

“Okay, let’s tone it down,” Baier jumped in.
It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach.

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Re: Happy Hunger...er...Trial Games!

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YankeeTarheel wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:46 pm They are still arguing out of both sides of their mouth.
1) They are defending Obama's use of Executive Privilege.
2) They are saying that an Impeachment Inquiry doesn't supersede Executive Privilege.
3) They claim that the House should have called witnesses and subpoenaed documents.
4) But they claim has every RIGHT to deny every witness and document.
5) They claim that the Impeachment Inquiry wasn't "legitimate" because it didn't follow rules the Republicans invented out of thin air.
6) But....Donald Trump has never formally invoked Executive Privilege. Never. Because EP cannot be invoked without going through a formal process, that is is TOTALLY granular, not "general". That would have REQUIRED Trump to identify line by line, document by document, and topic by topic for witness testimony. And THAT would have revealed just how criminal ALL of his actions are.
7) NO President before Trump ever invoked such incredibly broad EP...without ever, EVER formally invoking it!
8) The Supreme Court as far back as Nixon ruled the Executive Privilege cannot be used to stymie an Impeachment Inquiry.

It's a circular, contradictory argument. Like EVERY Trump argument it's BULLSHIT!
That's all they have left: Lies. It's really all they ever had besides hatred and rage.
It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach.

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

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It’s always interesting when folks resort to turning away from facts due to concerns about “process”. They reveal the weaknesses of their case in such astoundingly obvious ways.

And yet I believe our frustration is that they seem to repeatedly get away with it.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

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Latest Liar: Eric Hershmann claims that the Mueller Report TOTALLY exonerated Trump of collusion with Russia without all doubt.
That is totally false. Mueller did no such thing, But Barr LIED, saying that, ahead of the redacted report being released and Mueller was clearly pissed as shit about that.
Of course NOW they are trying to make the WHOLE Ukraine thing about Hunter and Joe Biden...and they are using implications, but no facts. It's yet again an attempt to cloud the plain issue: "We need you to do us a favor, though".
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

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Bisbee wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:57 pm It’s always interesting when folks resort to turning away from facts due to concerns about “process”. They reveal the weaknesses of their case in such astoundingly obvious ways.

And yet I believe our frustration is that they seem to repeatedly get away with it.
Yes
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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highdesert wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:16 pm
Bisbee wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:57 pm It’s always interesting when folks resort to turning away from facts due to concerns about “process”. They reveal the weaknesses of their case in such astoundingly obvious ways.

And yet I believe our frustration is that they seem to repeatedly get away with it.
Yes
It's important to remember that lots of otherwise guilty people get off on technicalities related to process. While it sucks from a "justice served" perspective, process is important to the rule of law and everyone being equal under the law. Except the rich, of course. And presidents. Especially bigly rich presidents.

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