Virginia militia efforts beginning

So many executive orders, so much twitter. What to do? Well, discuss it here for one...

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#51 Post by AndyH » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:05 pm

TrueTexan wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:52 pm
I wonder how the counties calling up the informal militia is going to work? By them calling the informal militia up they are then organized and become a formal militia and in conflict with the National Guard.
I don't see a conflict. From my reading of the founding documents as published by Young in "The Origin of the Second Amendment", the informal militia was supposed to be 'well regulated'. Organizing, electing officers in counties, drilling, equipping, et al is the expected behavior, whether 'formal' or 'informal'.

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#52 Post by featureless » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:11 pm

lurker wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:55 pm
featureless wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:31 pm
I sometimes wonder if the 2A is worth the same struggle. Rights are rights, but guns are not people. But then, it's hard to keep rights without guns, it seems.
not intending to bore you, i know i've said this here before. this is, in my opinion, the one, only, single thing our friends on the right get right. the second amendment is not about hunting or sport or even self-defense*, it's the last line of defense of all of the other rights spelled out in the constitution. unfortunately our friends on the right are willing to sacrifice all of those other rights in defense of the right to keep and bear, which in my opinion is backwards, because once you give up freedom from religion and freedom of speech and all the rest, the 2nd is irrelevant. unfortunately the "left" is chipping away from the other end, which leads me to conclude that there are two equal and opposite authoritarian forces working to disable our constitutional protections, starting at different ends but working toward the same goal, eliminating all of them, and those of us poor gullible souls looking for peaceful resolution via compromise are simply falling into the trap. the proper course IMO is to unrelentingly advocate for all of the rights spelled out in the constitution, especially those in the BOR without exception, which is why i am a member of that very subversive organization, the Liberal Gun Club. i hope i've come to the right place.

* except to repel overweening government.
Not boring at all, silly! This really is the crux of this thread. Naval gazing leads me to believe that I would, short of any other option, support taking up arms to protect people's rights. But I'm not sure if that is the case for guns. So, enter the militia. Not the knuckle brigade, but the true civic-commanded militia, called to defend the Bill of Rights against confiscation of "assault weapons" (because, let's face it, they are more effective than bolts and levers). Does this somehow change what's going on in Virginia? It's some nuanced stuff.

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#53 Post by AndyH » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:18 pm

https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/v ... law_review
Copious news coverage of Ruby Ridge,' Waco, 2 and the
Oklahoma City bombing' has prompted a growing concern with the
proliferation of paramilitary organizations and paramilitary
activity.4 The public's anxiety is fueled by the belief that private
militia pose a threat to society. Private militia are commonly
misunderstood and mischaracterized as organizations comprised
solely of right-wing militants adhering to Aryan, racist ideology.
Although many militia members subscribe to these views, allegiance
to the far right is not a prerequisite to membership in a private
militia.5 Instead, ardent belief in the need to protect individual
rights from encroachment by the federal government is the
predominant attribute of paramilitary organizations.6 This belief
appears to be a simple exercise of the First Amendment guarantees
of the freedom of speech and the freedom of association. 7
Moreover, a textual reading of the Second Amendment seemingly
confers upon individuals the right to organize and right to train as
a militia.8
Despite what may at first appear to be a constitutional right to
operate as a militia, numerous states have statutes prohibiting the
existence of private militia and/or their training activities. To
assess the constitutionality of these state statutes, this Comment
examines some of the First and Second Amendment issues involved
in regulating private militia.'
This seems important:
Instead, ardent belief in the need to protect individual rights from encroachment by the federal government is the predominant attribute of paramilitary organizations. This belief appears to be a simple exercise of the First Amendment guarantees of the freedom of speech and the freedom of association.

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#54 Post by lurker » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:24 pm

AndyH wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:05 pm
TrueTexan wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:52 pm
I wonder how the counties calling up the informal militia is going to work? By them calling the informal militia up they are then organized and become a formal militia and in conflict with the National Guard.
I don't see a conflict. From my reading of the founding documents as published by Young in "The Origin of the Second Amendment", the informal militia was supposed to be 'well regulated'. Organizing, electing officers in counties, drilling, equipping, et al is the expected behavior, whether 'formal' or 'informal'.
i was a civil war reenactor for 20 years and have period weapons and accoutrements and (both blue and grey) uniforms to prove it. at the very end i was doing a robert e lee representation. i rose to the position of 2nd sgt. before aging out, and was responsible for making sure that the men were properly skilled and drilled, even if the tactics and equipment are obsolete, and during those 20 years i was always aware that the question of militia participation in conflict in the future was a real possibility. now, i'm not proposing that a once-a-month playacting exercise qualifies me in any way to make life or death decisions for other people, but i do arguably have some knowledge of paramilitary operations within a specific historical context.

back in the day, state militias were very common and expected to supplement the deliberately minimal national standing army, in fact regiments were designated by their state of origin (34th ga, 46th tn, 4th ky, etc) and companies usually recruited within a county, at a county seat. if a unit was heavily engaged, sometimes by the end of 4 years some counties had very few young men left to return home. please, please, let's not go there again. :no:
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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#55 Post by AndyH » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:27 pm

lurker wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:24 pm
AndyH wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:05 pm
TrueTexan wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:52 pm
I wonder how the counties calling up the informal militia is going to work? By them calling the informal militia up they are then organized and become a formal militia and in conflict with the National Guard.
I don't see a conflict. From my reading of the founding documents as published by Young in "The Origin of the Second Amendment", the informal militia was supposed to be 'well regulated'. Organizing, electing officers in counties, drilling, equipping, et al is the expected behavior, whether 'formal' or 'informal'.
i was a civil war reenactor for 20 years and have period weapons and accoutrements and (both blue and grey) uniforms to prove it. at the very end i was doing a robert e lee representation. i rose to the position of 2nd sgt. before aging out, and was responsible for making sure that the men were properly skilled and drilled, even if the tactics and equipment are obsolete, and during those 20 years i was always aware that the question of militia participation in conflict in the future was a real possibility. now, i'm not proposing that a once-a-month playacting exercise qualifies me in any way to make life or death decisions for other people, but i do arguably have some knowledge of paramilitary operations within a specific historical context.

back in the day, state militias were very common and expected to supplement the deliberately minimal national standing army, in fact regiments were designated by their state of origin and usually recruited within a county, at a county seat. and if a unit was heavily engaged, sometimes by the end of 4 years some counties had very few young men left to return home. please, please, let's not go there again. :no:
Sorry brother. Strawman. I was in a blue uniform for more than 21 years, have about 7 years remaining on my ability to participate in the militia, and still consider myself to be bound by oath to support and defend the Constitution. If we haven't learned by now that the biggest threat to our Republic is apathy, I'm not sure we deserve to keep our Republic.

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#56 Post by lurker » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:40 pm

AndyH wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:27 pm
If we haven't learned by now that the biggest threat to our Republic is apathy, I'm not sure we deserve to keep our Republic.
no disagreement from me.
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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#57 Post by JohnNewell » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:29 pm

There are a bunch of photos going around the militia groups supposedly showing one or more Ring Power Rooks being trucked into Virginia. This one on the trailer actually has a Pennsylvania State Police seal on it btw.

Ring Power is one of the Florida regional Caterpillar dealers and they make these using CAT front loader components. A cool $1/4 million buck$.

It's got the militia groups spooked.
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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#58 Post by JohnNewell » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:36 pm

Another photo from a militia group. This one seems to have a Virginia State Police seal on it. Virginia is getting serious about this.
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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#59 Post by featureless » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:58 pm

Bringing in the heavies is kind of dumb on the .gov's part. If shit goes that haywire, a couple of armored bobcats aren't going to do a damn thing. If nothing goes haywire, they've only increased tensions and demonstrated additional oppressive tendencies. Snipers on the roof would seem more effective and less obviously threatening (they'll probably have those, too). Remarkable all this security is being implemented for a free speech demonstration on 2A rights on MLK day. I wonder what he would have said about it.

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#60 Post by JohnNewell » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:16 pm

featureless wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:58 pm
Bringing in the heavies is kind of dumb on the .gov's part. If shit goes that haywire, a couple of armored bobcats aren't going to do a damn thing. If nothing goes haywire, they've only increased tensions and demonstrated additional oppressive tendencies. Snipers on the roof would seem more effective and less obviously threatening (they'll probably have those, too). Remarkable all this security is being implemented for a free speech demonstration on 2A rights on MLK day. I wonder what he would have said about it.

Agreed.

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#61 Post by JohnNewell » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:20 pm

Seems like a legitimate article, unlike those crazy Alex Jones "Antifa Day of Rage" that are 100% made up.

And a really, really bad idea IMHO. The militia groups are not going to accept anyone labelled as "Antifa".

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/akwv ... n-virginia

News by VICE
Why This Antifa Group Is Siding With Thousands of Pro-Gun Conservatives In Virginia
A huge rally against gun control is shaping up to be a bizarre meeting of the minds.
By Tess Owen
Jan 16 2020, 10:55amShareTweetSnap

When gun lovers rally in front of the Virginia Capitol in Richmond next week, the local chapter of antifa will be there too. But their members won’t be wearing all black, and they don’t plan to douse right-wingers in milkshakes or Silly String.

Instead, local antifa will join thousands of conservatives who are expected to descend on Richmond that day in protesting pending gun-control legislation introduced by Democratic lawmakers.

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Antifa Seven Hills, based in Richmond, are opposing the slew of gun bills introduced by the newly Democratic Legislature since November, because they say those types of laws are used primarily to criminalize poor people, minorities, and leftists — and to bolster law enforcement’s power.

“I think it’s been pretty important for us to focus on the fact that gun control in America has a legacy of racist enforcement,” said Antifa Seven Hills spokesperson James (who asked that his name be withheld to avoid getting doxxed online). “Like taking guns away from black people, because black people were perceived as a threat to property and the sanctity of the state.”

READ: Virginia governor declares state of emergency after militias threaten to storm Capitol

The local antifa chapter’s engagement in this issue is another example of the resurgence of pro-gun leftists in America and yet more evidence that the gun-rights debate is growing increasingly politically diffuse and nuanced beyond simply being a GOP issue. Under the Trump administration and in response to the emergence of an emboldened far-right movement, leftist gun groups have surged. For example, the Socialist Rifle Association was formed in 2018 and today has over 50 chapters across the country. Similarly, Redneck Revolt, a leftist gun group that formed in 2016, claims at least 45 chapters nationwide.

“This is our fight as much as anyone else’s,” James, who identifies as an anarchist, added. “It’s our state, and we are left largely out of the debate. The presence of an armed left is not discussed, it’s not understood.”

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Antifa and conservative gun-rights activists would seem to be unlikely bedfellows; anyone who’s tuned into cable news in the last few years has watched scenes of political violence unfold between the hard-left and right-wingers in places like Portland, New York City, Boston, and Berkley. But in the case of Antifa Seven Hills, they believe they’ve got more in common with working-class white Virginians, regardless of their political bent, than they do with many of the moderate Democrats who helped their party win control of the Legislature in November, for the first time since 1994.

The shared skepticism of political moderates and authority is why Antifa Seven Hills sees the January 20 rally as an opportunity to extend an olive branch to other gun owners — at least those who don’t align with the far-right militias or white supremacists who are also expected to show up to the event.

READ: This conspiracy theory is firing up pro-gun activists right before their huge rally.

It’s also a reminder that “antifa” is not a monolithic movement. James said that antifa chapters tend to vary regionally in their goals, activities, and organizational structures. For example, antifascists in some parts of the U.S. have embraced “black bloc” protest tactics, which were imported from Europe and entail activists wearing all black and concealing their faces.

While that tactic is often associated with antifa in places like Portland, where antifascists sometimes show up in the hundreds to counter far-right groups, James says it’s not as well suited to the South. “I think what’s particular about the South is that we have to be a bit more creative and sensitive to the people around us — instead of fulfilling some sort of meme of what antifa is,” said James. “That’s really what we’re trying to work against right now, especially by talking to conservatives and showing we aren’t just a black-clad group of rabble-rousers who are out for attention and have jobs funded by George Soros.”

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It was less than three years ago that hundreds of antifa, some in black bloc, showed up to battle white supremacists in Charlottesville, just 70 miles from Richmond. Many local residents praised antifa as heroes in the aftermath of the violent rally, where a white supremacist killed one counterprotester and injured dozens, because they believed that they intervened to drive out the white supremacists when law enforcement faltered.

But while the positive image of antifa might persist among some Charlottesville residents who had firsthand experiences of violence, it’s not the case for much of the American public. Starting from President Donald Trump’s comments after the rally, in which he laid blame on “both sides” of the conflict, antifa has been transformed into a conservative boogeyman. Conspiracy theories about Soros-funded “antifa super soldiers” plotting to behead white parents and unleash civil war on behalf of Democrats started circulating online months after Charlottesville. Some bad-faith online personalities have used selectively edited clips of protests to make claims about the growing dangers of antifa (law enforcement has not linked any deaths to antifa).

James hopes to regain control of antifascism’s image by showing ordinary Virginians that they share similar values — and thinks that Monday's rally is a good opportunity to build those bridges.

But what was originally billed as a run-of-the-mill, open-carry, pro-gun event has snowballed into something much larger since it was organized last month — and authorities are fearing that violent right-wing extremist groups could show up and hijack the day.

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#62 Post by AndyH » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:26 pm

I sampled a couple of gun-related YouTubers last night and had to stop when I felt my BP rising into the red. Too many of these fine... (screw that - there's no PC way to say this)...most of these people have gone full idiot. Echoing Trump lies, tossing in conspiracy theories about Planned Parenthood selling baby parts, Northam's blackface, the conspiracy theory that he called for killing babies after birth...claiming that the governor is calling in 'his' ANTIFA reinforcements in order to trigger a riot. They're in full nut-job mode. Batshit crazy.

So, of course the Dems have to meet the 'threat' they created in kind. Very Trumpian of them.

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#63 Post by AndyH » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:35 pm

JohnNewell wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:36 pm
Another photo from a militia group. This one seems to have a Virginia State Police seal on it. Virginia is getting serious about this.
Maybe someone should remind Northam about the Dem backlash during Ferguson.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/racial-justic ... n-uprising
The militarized response to the uprising in Ferguson shocked America. It shocked the world. Rep. Emanuel Cleaver (D-Mo.) declared, “Ferguson resembles Fallujah.” The sniper rifles, armored vehicles, and tear gas turned on Ferguson protesters were stunning, and yet it could have happened in countless communities in this country.
ferguson.jpg
image source: https://www.businessinsider.com/police- ... son-2014-8

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#64 Post by featureless » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:45 pm

I suspect the media coverage to remain thin, especially with regard to .gov tactics.

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#65 Post by JohnNewell » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:16 pm

I dunno. Most of those militia groups are all mouth and little do. But there is always the danger of some crazies getting involved.

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#66 Post by K9s » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:30 pm

featureless wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:45 pm
I suspect the media coverage to remain thin, especially with regard to .gov tactics.
I expect media coverage to be partisan. I have seen how Fox News covers protesters since 2016. They will blame any trouble on the left. I have seen them showing video of peaceful protesters holding signs and commenting on all the violence and Trump-hatred occurring (it wasn't violent or anti-Trump). If you were just listening without video, you would have no idea that they were lying. Amazing stuff.

Switching between channels is an interesting view on propaganda. I am sure any armed protesters will be showcased as right-wing nut-jobs or Antifa and a reason to get rid of guns.
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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#67 Post by TrueTexan » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:16 pm

President Donald Trump appeared to pour gasoline on a political fire in Virginia only days before a far-right protest that many are worried could result in violence.

Gun activists have been threatening civil war if the commonwealth’s legislature enacts new gun safety legislation.

Right-wing militias sought to organize an armed action at the capitol, but Gov. Ralph Northam declared a state of emergency to prevent firearms on the grounds.

Many have feared it could be like the fatal “Unite the Right” rally in Charlottesville. Following the murder of Heather Heyer, Trump defended the alt-right extremists, referring to them as “fine people.”

On Saturday, Trump took sides in the latest battle in Virginia.

“Your 2nd Amendment is under very serious attack in the Great Commonwealth of Virginia,” Trump tweeted.

“That’s what happens when you vote for Democrats, they will take your guns away. Republicans will win Virginia in 2020. Thank you Dems!” he added.

The “Virginia Citizens Defense League” rally is scheduled for Monday. The FBI arrested three neo-Nazis before they could attend the event.
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/01/trump ... ttesville/

Just a matter of time before he supported those “fine people”like the ones recently arrested.
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Virginia militia efforts beginning

#68 Post by Maccabee » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:50 pm

(Edit) nevermind

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#69 Post by lurker » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:10 pm

i begin to despair. these people have no sense whatsoever. neither side. rushing to embrace violence, putin must be proud.
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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#70 Post by NegativeApproach » Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:35 pm

I'm wondering how much of the mainstream press is just trying to present this as a "white power" rally when all of the news I'm hearing about from gun group is that it's a pro-2nd A rally. The timing is horrible on it though...

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#71 Post by featureless » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:13 pm

TrueTexan wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:16 pm
President Donald Trump appeared to pour gasoline on a political fire in Virginia only days before a far-right protest that many are worried could result in violence.

Gun activists have been threatening civil war if the commonwealth’s legislature enacts new gun safety legislation.

Right-wing militias sought to organize an armed action at the capitol, but Gov. Ralph Northam declared a state of emergency to prevent firearms on the grounds.

Many have feared it could be like the fatal “Unite the Right” rally in Charlottesville. Following the murder of Heather Heyer, Trump defended the alt-right extremists, referring to them as “fine people.”

On Saturday, Trump took sides in the latest battle in Virginia.

“Your 2nd Amendment is under very serious attack in the Great Commonwealth of Virginia,” Trump tweeted.

“That’s what happens when you vote for Democrats, they will take your guns away. Republicans will win Virginia in 2020. Thank you Dems!” he added.

The “Virginia Citizens Defense League” rally is scheduled for Monday. The FBI arrested three neo-Nazis before they could attend the event.
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/01/trump ... ttesville/

Just a matter of time before he supported those “fine people”like the ones recently arrested.
This is a steaming pile of shit article. Now that Trump has spoken, media wakes up and proclaims it a far right rally. Did they miss the part where Antifa is supporting this rally? Did they miss the grass roots of the 2A sanctuary?

Of course they did. Only rabid racists could possibly want to keep guns. Right? We are so fucked.

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#72 Post by K9s » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:40 pm

Well, Trump could have shut his f**king mouth, right? Anyone who didn't see this coming once Trump made it about Red vs Blue?

Trump calls the press the enemy of the people. No way they are going to see the light on 2A issues after Trump takes a side.

It does guarantee that everyone in VA takes sides and Dems win because they outnumber GOP. Good job pissing off voters and guaranteeing gun control, Trump.
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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#73 Post by featureless » Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:05 am

K9s wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:40 pm
Well, Trump could have shut his f**king mouth, right? Anyone who didn't see this coming once Trump made it about Red vs Blue?

Trump calls the press the enemy of the people. No way they are going to see the light on 2A issues after Trump takes a side.

It does guarantee that everyone in VA takes sides and Dems win because they outnumber GOP. Good job pissing off voters and guaranteeing gun control, Trump.
Or the media could engage in some critical thinking instead of constant outrage of the latest shit nugget to fall out of his face and onto the carpet. Obviously, he's a fucking idiot. So too the media. There is more going on in the world. They give Trump far to much power with the attention.

What is happening in VA is fucking serious.

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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#74 Post by Eris » Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:45 am

featureless wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:13 pm
This is a steaming pile of shit article. Now that Trump has spoken, media wakes up and proclaims it a far right rally. Did they miss the part where Antifa is supporting this rally? Did they miss the grass roots of the 2A sanctuary?

Of course they did. Only rabid racists could possibly want to keep guns. Right? We are so fucked.
RawStory is incredibly partisan and really doesn't care too much for thought or analysis. They are all about emotions and painting anyone who disagrees with them as an enemy. I used to read it, but it got too much for me and there's never anything posted there that I felt like was worth my time and effort.
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Re: Virginia militia efforts beginning

#75 Post by K9s » Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:16 am

featureless wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:05 am
K9s wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:40 pm
Well, Trump could have shut his f**king mouth, right? Anyone who didn't see this coming once Trump made it about Red vs Blue?

Trump calls the press the enemy of the people. No way they are going to see the light on 2A issues after Trump takes a side.

It does guarantee that everyone in VA takes sides and Dems win because they outnumber GOP. Good job pissing off voters and guaranteeing gun control, Trump.
Or the media could engage in some critical thinking instead of constant outrage of the latest shit nugget to fall out of his face and onto the carpet. Obviously, he's a fucking idiot. So too the media. There is more going on in the world. They give Trump far to much power with the attention.

What is happening in VA is fucking serious.
If the media wouldn't have covered his rallies for free non-stop in 2016, that would have been nice, too. They complain about Trump but broadcast his every utterance and tweet. Trump won't change. The media won't change. But, he is POTUS and should not be making this a red v blue issue if he really believes in the 2A (he doesn't and neither does the broadcast media).

Unfortunately, we are stuck with media and politicians using civil rights (gun rights, women's rights, gay rights, all rights) as a way to divide people and make money. Let's try to stick together.
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