liberalism and libertarianism - not the same thing

So many executive orders, so much twitter. What to do? Well, discuss it here for one...

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lurker
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liberalism and libertarianism - not the same thing

Post by lurker »

though they appear similar when viewed from a limited perspective. in fact, they are not even close.

a lot of people confuse us with libertarians and some libertarians confuse us with themselves. and try to recruit us. morons.
though unsavory, i don't see libertarianism in and of itself as necessarily a ban-worthy offense.

liberalism and libertarianism, while very similar with respect to individual rights (except the 2nd lately) are very nearly diametrically opposed to each other with respect to corporate entities and the proper role of government in remedying encroachments on those individual rights by either other individuals or corporate entities.

the critical question here is what an individual believes to be the proper role of government, which bears on how big and how involved it should be in the lives of individual and corporate entities. but mainly how it taxes, which, in my experience, is what libertarians object to most. which suggests to me an excess of cynical greed, and strong powers of rationalization, or gullibility.

ymmv.

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Re: liberalism and libertarianism - not the same thing

Post by YankeeTarheel »

Libertarianism is dumbed-down Objectivism, Ayn Rand's philosophy, mostly pared down to "selfishness is good, leave me alone" and no more than that.
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Re: liberalism and libertarianism - not the same thing

Post by highdesert »

Good topic and something that high school and college students need to understand. They loved Ron Paul on college campuses because he was for legalizing pot, they never listened to the rest of his dribble. Libertarians are fine with legalizing a lot of things but they don't like government and regulation, liberals see the value of government.
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Re: liberalism and libertarianism - not the same thing

Post by senorgrand »

I firmly believe in the power of humans living to their full potential. That can't happen without individual rights AND a structure that supports human development. Don't fuck with the Constitution and give everyone a free QUALITY education through college. Make sure the old and poor alike have housing and healthcare. Establish and fund programs that pull people out of poverty. Make the rich pay their portion of taxes to support a society that has allowed them to succeed.

How is that so hard?
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Re: liberalism and libertarianism - not the same thing

Post by tonguengroover »

Ha, I know where this is coming from.
Meh, the way I see it is Libertarians believe in many of the same things as liberals, cept liberals want to disperse your money to social programs and Libertarians do not. But Libertarians love the 2nd amendment (liberals do NOT) and especially do not like government telling them what they can and cannot do such as making abortion illegal. Nothing wrong with those two.
You can call them greedy because they want to keep their money. But just throw in some tax write off incentives for the poor and all is well. One could say the same about liberals being greedy and wanting to take large portions of your income.

https://danielmiessler.com/blog/the-dif ... tarianism/

Social Liberalism focused on having the government still manage much of the economy, but with more social freedoms.

Conservatism focused on the government still upholding traditional social norms, but allowing economic freedoms—especially regarding the use of free markets.

Libertarianism is a strong form of Classical Liberalism that argues that individuals should be left alone—without much influence from central government, and that personal responsibility is the most powerful ingredient of success.

Pure Libertarians believe the government should stay out of both social and economic issues, meaning they tend to offend both Social Liberals and Conservatives, for opposite reasons....
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Re: liberalism and libertarianism - not the same thing

Post by tonguengroover »

lurker wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:50 am

a lot of people confuse us with libertarians and some libertarians confuse us with themselves. and try to recruit us. morons.
though unsavory, i don't see libertarianism in and of itself as necessarily a ban-worthy offense.
Wait a minute! WOW! Just WOW! Since when do u decide on who gets banned here? I believe we should let anyone on the forum, especially centrists who do not follow your logic and beliefs to the letter Are not liberals the people who love the first amendment, all the constitutional amendments? Then why discriminate? I don't like people who discriminate and neither should anyone else here. Especially from someone who called an old member nasty names for going on a hunt.

If that is the case here then ban me.
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Re: liberalism and libertarianism - not the same thing

Post by lurker »

go fuck yourself, perrera, aka floooringguru.

eta, 02/12/20: notice who i called out here, and who responded. the individual in question has been here (and banned) under another name. i'm all in favor of second chances, but redemption requires repentance.
Last edited by lurker on Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: liberalism and libertarianism - not the same thing

Post by tonguengroover »

Is there someone here trying to convert you? I have not seen it.
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Re: liberalism and libertarianism - not the same thing

Post by tonguengroover »

lurker wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:03 pm
go fuck yourself, perrera, aka floooringguru.
Again, that's not a nice thing to say to anyone. I thought that was not allowed. Must be wrong, however I did read the rules. Maybe you should.
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Re: liberalism and libertarianism - not the same thing

Post by tonguengroover »

I don't know who you are but FWIW we donate to planned Parenthood, mental health orgs's and Emerge Center against Domestic violence. Plus lots of stuff to Goodwill. Besides paying a ton in taxes.
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Re: liberalism and libertarianism - not the same thing

Post by lurker »

tonguengroover wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:58 pm
Besides paying a ton in taxes.
:roflmao:

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Re: liberalism and libertarianism - not the same thing

Post by Marlene »

Political illiteracy is the American national sport. The Libertarian Party is a team in that sport, and has little-to-nothing to do with libertarianism. One would learn much more about libertarianism reading 1890s anarchists than one would from reading third rate 1950s protofascist science fiction.
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Re: liberalism and libertarianism - not the same thing

Post by shinzen »

Lurker- knock it off. Both of you need to put the other person on ignore which I thought had already happened.
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Re: liberalism and libertarianism - not the same thing

Post by JohnNewell »

I kinda of call Libertarians "Loonitarians". At the base of their beliefs they are ultra conservatives.

Fun fact: The Interstate-quality highways in Mexico were built by private companies. That's a basic tenant of Libertarian philosophy. They are too expensive for most Mexicans to travel on so they are pretty much limited to wealthy gringo motorcyclists <raising hand> and the wealthy Mexicans. And WalMart trucks; they seem to be able to afford the fare from their HUGE distribution center south of Monterrey to Nuevo Laredo.

But the average Mexican car or truck has to travel on the old roads.

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Re: liberalism and libertarianism - not the same thing

Post by lurker »

shinzen wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:58 pm
Lurker- knock it off. Both of you need to put the other person on ignore which I thought had already happened.
kbye. y'all take care, hear? you are under attack and the sooner you figure it out the better.

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Re: liberalism and libertarianism - not the same thing

Post by tonguengroover »

The sky is falling, the sky is falling. LOL adios chuntaros

My message was that everyone gets their opinion heard. You don't have to agree with them. Anarchists? Extreme left liberals could be considered anarchists.

I'm outa here, talk about being BIASED. This guy gets to call people douches, morons and tell them to fuck off.
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Re: liberalism and libertarianism - not the same thing

Post by Carl_Spackler »

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Yep, the Dems are screwed in 2020 lol

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Re: liberalism and libertarianism - not the same thing

Post by Bacchus »

tonguengroover wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:56 am
The sky is falling, the sky is falling. LOL adios chuntaros

My message was that everyone gets their opinion heard. You don't have to agree with them. Anarchists? Extreme left liberals could be considered anarchists.

I'm outa here, talk about being BIASED. This guy gets to call people douches, morons and tell them to fuck off.
Your opinion *was* heard. Hearing it does not obligate anyone to like it, regardless of venue. And some indeed didn't agree with it and gave their opinion in return. There was a sign above the door when you came in, indicating that there was probably a bias here... as there is any any other forum in the known universe. Shouldn't come as a surprise that there may be blowback when you poke.
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Re: liberalism and libertarianism - not the same thing

Post by Bacchus »

JohnNewell wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:59 pm
I kinda of call Libertarians "Loonitarians". At the base of their beliefs they are ultra conservatives.

Fun fact: The Interstate-quality highways in Mexico were built by private companies. That's a basic tenant of Libertarian philosophy. They are too expensive for most Mexicans to travel on so they are pretty much limited to wealthy gringo motorcyclists <raising hand> and the wealthy Mexicans. And WalMart trucks; they seem to be able to afford the fare from their HUGE distribution center south of Monterrey to Nuevo Laredo.

But the average Mexican car or truck has to travel on the old roads.
Been on those roads- both kinds. Can confirm.
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Re: liberalism and libertarianism - not the same thing

Post by CDFingers »

Stiglitz:
The credibility of neoliberalism’s faith in unfettered markets as the surest road to shared prosperity is on life-support these days. And well it should be. The simultaneous waning of confidence in neoliberalism and in democracy is no coincidence or mere correlation. Neoliberalism has undermined democracy for 40 years.

The form of globalization prescribed by neoliberalism left individuals and entire societies unable to control an important part of their own destiny, as Dani Rodrik of Harvard University has explained so clearly, and as I argue in my recent books Globalization and Its Discontents Revisited and People, Power, and Profits. The effects of capital-market liberalization were particularly odious: If a leading presidential candidate in an emerging market lost favor with Wall Street, the banks would pull their money out of the country. Voters then faced a stark choice: Give in to Wall Street or face a severe financial crisis. It was as if Wall Street had more political power than the country’s citizens.

Even in rich countries, ordinary citizens were told, “You can’t pursue the policies you want” – whether adequate social protection, decent wages, progressive taxation, or a well-regulated financial system – “because the country will lose competitiveness, jobs will disappear, and you will suffer.”

In rich and poor countries alike, elites promised that neoliberal policies would lead to faster economic growth, and that the benefits would trickle down so that everyone, including the poorest, would be better off. To get there, though, workers would have to accept lower wages, and all citizens would have to accept cutbacks in important government programs.
https://www.project-syndicate.org/comme ... tz-2019-11

Neoliberalism, therefore, is pretty much the exact opposite of classical liberalism. We also have to note how many features neoliberalism shares with libertarianism. Eh.

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Re: liberalism and libertarianism - not the same thing

Post by Eris »

I go away for a week only to come back to this?

*sigh*
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Re: liberalism and libertarianism - not the same thing

Post by featureless »

Eris wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:44 pm
I go away for a week only to come back to this?

*sigh*
You never should have left us!

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Re: liberalism and libertarianism - not the same thing

Post by joemac »

Me too. Gone for awhile. I don’t have a a dog in this particular fight anyway - I’m a socialist.


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Re: liberalism and libertarianism - not the same thing

Post by K9s »

JohnNewell wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:59 pm
I kinda of call Libertarians "Loonitarians". At the base of their beliefs they are ultra conservatives.

Fun fact: The Interstate-quality highways in Mexico were built by private companies. That's a basic tenant of Libertarian philosophy. They are too expensive for most Mexicans to travel on so they are pretty much limited to wealthy gringo motorcyclists <raising hand> and the wealthy Mexicans. And WalMart trucks; they seem to be able to afford the fare from their HUGE distribution center south of Monterrey to Nuevo Laredo.

But the average Mexican car or truck has to travel on the old roads.
Our form of that in GA and FL is toll roads. Pay a ridiculous toll, you avoid the terrible traffic. Many roads in FL are toll only unless you want to take back roads.

It sucks.

I remember driving an hour between Tampa and somewhere 50 miles north at $20+ toll each way. I guess no state income tax is cool if you just stay home or make enough to pay tolls.
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Re: liberalism and libertarianism - not the same thing

Post by mrcee12 »

I wouldn't have a problem with libertarians if they left me alone. But they seem to have a problem with my kids going to public schools or me not wanting someone else's pollution in my space. I can understand them not wanting to be bothered. I just wish they would stop bothering me.

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