just playing around(so far), homemade bullpup m14?

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just playing around(so far), homemade bullpup m14?

#1 Post by lurker » Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:38 am

i've concluded that while the m14 platform is a wonderful thing, at 14 lbs loaded with scope, it's awkward to handle. i've come to suspect that shortening it would help, hence the socom models, and by moving the CG back toward the shooter's body, make what's there more easily manageable. bullpup stocks are available, but for about what i have in the rifle, and yield no weight savings.

but i'm handy with a saw, and dinged-up GI stocks with metal go for $40 or thereabouts. obviously the trigger would have to move forward, probably with a pistol grip. the scope mount would have to move forward, but they sell scout scope rails. there's still a problem with linkages and access to controls, mag release, safety, and the iron sights might just become irrelevant, probably needs a thumbhole. but i decided to rough out a pic to share, see what y'all think. yes, i know, crude, very crude, still not too bad for a first try.

sacrilege, or the future of small arms? both?
polytech - Copy.JPG
Last edited by lurker on Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: just playing around(so far), homemade bullpup m14?

#2 Post by DamnYankee » Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:29 pm

lurker wrote:sacrilege, or the future of small arms? both?
polytech - Copy.JPG
I’m not sure if Juggernaut is still making their Rogue stock for the platform, but that’s about the best implementation of the bull pup concept I’ve come across for the M14/M1A. It’s still like 10lbs, with scope and bipod, but the center of gravity is very close in, and the LOP is perfect. I converted an 18 inch scout with a used one, and it just feels right. I don’t hunt, but it’s so easy to move with, it would be a great woods/hunting rifle. The one significant con is the slightly mushy trigger which seems to be a problem with all the bull pup conversions. Accuracy definitely suffers.

If you take your design further, that’s where I’d spend some thought. Embed the connecting rod in a channel with bearings to eliminate any possible flexing and bolt it somehow to both triggers or trigger linkage to minimize the “slop”.

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Re: just playing around(so far), homemade bullpup m14?

#3 Post by lurker » Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:56 pm

so, not so crazy an idea?
i've looked at the juggernaut, they look good but so pricey. i suspect much of the trigger issue is because of the extra slop in the linkage. i've been looking at how the winter triggers work. and yes, run the links through a guide channel so no flex. :yes:
i'll play with it some more, thanks for the input.

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Re: just playing around(so far), homemade bullpup m14?

#4 Post by K9s » Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:47 pm

All the bullpup conversions I see are very "tactical" looking. I will look around for a wood version.
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Re: just playing around(so far), homemade bullpup m14?

#5 Post by lurker » Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:57 pm

K9s wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:47 pm All the bullpup conversions I see are very "tactical" looking. I will look around for a wood version.
google found me one but there's no info, i think it's a one-off.

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Re: just playing around(so far), homemade bullpup m14?

#6 Post by lurker » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:51 am

i'm going to mention vendors here so i or anyone else can find everything later, some are the best, some are cheapest, some have stuff in stock. not necessarily an endorsement.

i've ordered a genuine surplus chinese polytech* stock $25 from sarco to experiment with, and some other small bits from other vendors. still under $35. might should have ordered 2.

i'm thinking a thompson SMG foregrip might make a stylin' pistol grip. auto ordnance sells a beauty for $60. i've seen them listed as low as $20 but not in stock. maybe i'll make one, a chunk of pretty hardwood can't be that expensive.
tgfg.jpg
(this is not AO's)

* chinese rifle, chinese stock. USGI stocks (if we disregard condition) aren't much more, $33 or $40 from treeline but it seems like sacrilege to cut one up. maybe after i have something workable i'll get the USGI.
Last edited by lurker on Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: just playing around(so far), homemade bullpup m14?

#7 Post by K9s » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:01 pm

You have a plan, I assume, for the polytech stock? Cut and glue?
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Re: just playing around(so far), homemade bullpup m14?

#8 Post by Tedzilla » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:13 am

5 LBS lighter, 26.75 inches long, Good trigger and battle tested. IWI Tavor 7.
I've got the .556 version, but would have bought this if it had been available when I was in the market.
Attachments
Tavor-7-Black-angled-w-Mag-1-in-12-e1576601335109.png
I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY
III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT'S BEHIND IT

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Re: just playing around(so far), homemade bullpup m14?

#9 Post by K9s » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:43 am

Tedzilla wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:13 am 5 LBS lighter, 26.75 inches long, Good trigger and battle tested. IWI Tavor 7.
I've got the .556 version, but would have bought this if it had been available when I was in the market.
Is that the .308/7.62x51 version?

Duh. I just zoomed in. 7.62 NATO.

Looks nice!
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Re: just playing around(so far), homemade bullpup m14?

#10 Post by lurker » Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:49 am

K9s wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:01 pm You have a plan, I assume, for the polytech stock? Cut and glue?
yes, exactly. i have a rough idea which i will share here before any cutting happens. measure twice, cut once.
if i eff it up, i'm out all of $25 bucks. sarco hasn't shipped yet, c'mon guys get off your duffs

Tedzilla wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:13 am 5 LBS lighter, 26.75 inches long, Good trigger and battle tested. IWI Tavor 7.
if i was looking to spend 2 gees on a rifle, this would probably be it. but i'm chicken, cheep, cheep, cheep!
i think $855 is the most i've ever paid for a gun, (poly, in fact) and then maybe 200 on goodies for it, mags, parts, mounts, gauges, tools... it adds up. i'm told it's a better investment than spending it on floozies. :think:

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Re: just playing around(so far), homemade bullpup m14?

#11 Post by K9s » Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:19 am

Sarco can take a while to ship. That is one thing I remember about them. Patience... (I am not very patient, either)
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Re: just playing around(so far), homemade bullpup m14?

#12 Post by DamnYankee » Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:34 pm

Cheep cheap CHEAP is right. The Springfield Scout squad that I based mine on was (and still is) the most expensive gun I’ve ever purchased. I recall getting excited about the idea of 7.62 out of a short package. Loved the idea of a SOCOM but knew ballistics took a hit with the shorter barrel. Drooled over the - at the time - newly released RFB from Keltec, but couldn’t justify $1600+. When I found the used Rogue stock it was the most affordable option, and I figured what the hell, I can always sell if it doesn’t work out.

For every well designed Tavor or Aug there are probably dozens of “Center Balanced Rifle Systems“ and “Shernic Gunworks”. For anyone out there who has one of the latter examples, I am not criticizing, but clearly there is a huge gap in engineering and quality here. Designed as a bull pup vs converted. As a “conversion” I put the Rogue square in the middle of the continuum.

All of them started from the same place of
“what if...?” Maybe the goal is to make the conversion as close to purpose built as possible.

Kinda wish I had a bandsaw...But guess I will console myself watching your progress lurker, and maybe thinking about re-engineering the trigger on mine.

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Re: just playing around(so far), homemade bullpup m14?

#13 Post by lurker » Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:56 pm

DamnYankee wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:34 pm console myself watching your progress lurker
that's sort of what i'm doing, mostly just a "why not?" to occupy my mind. poly the polytech is my most expensive rifle.

today i went to the range and one of the guys there had a tavor in .223 ($1,800) and offered to let me shoot it, which i did, and i was ... underwhelmed. the red dot helped i suppose but no better than my AR with iron sights. it used my orlite AR mag just fine, but it was heavy, seemed like a lot more than the nominal 8 lbs, maybe even more than poly...and at that point i wondered; "why bother?"

i will proceed with this as the parts come in. if sarco ever ships my stock...if nothing else, maybe we can learn what not to do, like maybe not order from sarco to save 8 bucks if you're impatient..

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Re: just playing around(so far), homemade bullpup m14?

#14 Post by K9s » Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:31 am

I would love to shoot a Tavor in 308 and really hate it. That might help me get rid of this bullpup bug.

I have been tempted plenty of times with conversions. Every time, the price and "fitting" makes me look at a Tavor again. I literally have no logical or imagined reason to buy one. I should probably find a place that will rent one so I can just make a decision.

In the mean time, it is interesting to see this happen, lurker.
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Re: just playing around(so far), homemade bullpup m14?

#15 Post by lurker » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:58 am

what's the worst that could happen? i'm/we're having fun and not hurting anyone.

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Re: just playing around(so far), homemade bullpup m14?

#16 Post by K9s » Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:16 am

What is the worst that could happen, though? Bubba disaster! We've seen it before.
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Re: just playing around(so far), homemade bullpup m14?

#17 Post by K9s » Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:18 am

The British Army Almost Got a Bullpup Rifle Back in the Early 1950s
https://www.historicalfirearms.info/pos ... rifle-em-3

By late 1947 the British Army’s Armaments Design Department had designed three principal rifles for the Infantry Personal Weapon program. The new rifles got their official designations in January 1948.

They were Stanley Thorpe’s EM-1, the EM-2 designed by Capt. Kazimierz Stefan Januszewski and the EM-3, the latter the brainchild of Major J.E.M. Hall, an Australian.

The three designs shared one common design feature — they all featured the bullpup configuration, with the action behind the trigger. This layout produced a compact weapon ideally suited to close-quarters combat.
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Re: just playing around(so far), homemade bullpup m14?

#18 Post by lurker » Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:35 am

yes, this project is somewhat inspired by the em-2. we probably should have, at the least, adopted the .280 cartridge. britain and the soviets took a beating from ww2, we got off light. they learned the lessons better, we didn't. something about almost losing makes you examine your priorities.

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just playing around(so far), homemade bullpup m14?

#19 Post by DamnYankee » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:34 pm

I just re-watched GJ‘s forgotten weapon series about the EM-2. He mentions that the EM-2 development and later SA-80/L-85 bull pup development had no design continuity. They were two distinctly different projects. I think the fact that they both arrived at a similar configuration speaks to the utility of the design. Something very cool and retro alternate history about that wood grain stocked EM-2...


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Re: just playing around(so far), homemade bullpup m14?

#20 Post by K9s » Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:30 pm

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Re: just playing around(so far), homemade bullpup m14?

#21 Post by Northern » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:05 am

I join y’all in the bullpup obsession. For me it’s complicated because although I’m ambi enough to learn to shoot right handed, it’s most comfortable for me to shoot left handed and that is an issue w bullpup ejection ports... hence my obsession with the reversible Tavor...following this thread closely.

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Re: just playing around(so far), homemade bullpup m14?

#22 Post by lurker » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:43 pm

added pic of tommy gun foregrip to post 6 above. now to get a nice bit of walnut or birch. sure wish sarco would get off their....

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Re: just playing around(so far), homemade bullpup m14?

#23 Post by lurker » Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:54 pm

:bananadance: sarco has printed a shipping label!
sarco has shipped! :bananadance: thursday they say.

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