Trump says will imprison r deport 3 mil undocumented

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President-elect Donald Trump plans to deport or imprison somewhere between 2 million and 3 million undocumented immigrants as soon as he takes office.

In an interview with CBS News that will air Sunday night, Trump said he would launch what could be the largest mass deportation effort in modern history, vowing to immediately deport a number of people comparable to the record-setting figure that President Barack Obama carried out over two terms in office.

“What we are going to do is get the people that are criminal and have criminal records, gang members, drug dealers, where a lot of these people, probably 2 million, it could be even 3 million, we are getting them out of our country or we are going to incarcerate,” Trump said in the interview. “But we’re getting them out of our country, they’re here illegally.”

In saying that 2 million to 3 million undocumented immigrants with criminal records live in the U.S., Trump was repeating a claim he’d made earlier in the campaign that The Washington Post fact-checked and determined was inaccurate.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/don ... gpic1k0529

Now when has facts ever gotten in the way of Trumps mouth or affected his pea brain.

Doesn't seem odd he only seems to refer to those undocumented immigrants of color when he wants to lock them up or kick them out. Never speaks about the illegal workers from Eastern Europe, especially if they're young "hot" models.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: Trump says will imprison r deport 3 mil undocumented

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TrueTexan wrote:
President-elect Donald Trump plans to deport or imprison somewhere between 2 million and 3 million undocumented immigrants as soon as he takes office.

In an interview with CBS News that will air Sunday night, Trump said he would launch what could be the largest mass deportation effort in modern history, vowing to immediately deport a number of people comparable to the record-setting figure that President Barack Obama carried out over two terms in office.

“What we are going to do is get the people that are criminal and have criminal records, gang members, drug dealers, where a lot of these people, probably 2 million, it could be even 3 million, we are getting them out of our country or we are going to incarcerate,” Trump said in the interview. “But we’re getting them out of our country, they’re here illegally.”

In saying that 2 million to 3 million undocumented immigrants with criminal records live in the U.S., Trump was repeating a claim he’d made earlier in the campaign that The Washington Post fact-checked and determined was inaccurate.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/don ... gpic1k0529

Now when has facts ever gotten in the way of Trumps mouth or affected his pea brain.

Doesn't seem odd he only seems to refer to those undocumented immigrants of color when he wants to lock them up or kick them out. Never speaks about the illegal workers from Eastern Europe, especially if they're young "hot" models.
Not surprised since he walked back his threat to abolish the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare), he has to throw some red meat to his base. The Federal courts will have the last say on this issue.

People used to refer to Arnold Schwarzenegger when he was Governor of California as the Gropinator because he had a problem with women. I think that moniker should now go to Trump, our Gropinator in Chief.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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Trump's not revolutionary, just evolutionary.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-d ... d=41715661
Between 2009 and 2015 his administration has removed more than 2.5 million people through immigration orders, which doesn’t include the number of people who "self-deported" or were turned away and/or returned to their home country at the border by U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP)...

According to governmental data, the Obama administration has deported more people than any other president's administration in history.
In fact, they have deported more than the sum of all the presidents of the 20th century.

President George W. Bush's administration deported just over two million during his time in office; and Obama’s numbers don’t reflect his last year in office, for which data is not yet available.
Don't forget that our current batch of internment camps - in which mothers and children are kept and in which some have committed suicide - had nothing to do with a Trump administration. Liberals built that. Yay us.

Re: Trump says will imprison r deport 3 mil undocumented

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What is controversial about deporting ILLEGAL/UNDOCUMENTED immigrants with CRIMINAL RECORDS? Isn't this the current policy already? In most countries just being undocumented is enough to get you deported.

Obama Has Deported More People Than Any Other President

"Who is being deported?

President Obama directed U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) to focus on criminals, not families, during his November 2014 executive action on immigration.

According to their website, "ICE has continued to increase its focus on identifying, arresting, and removing convicted criminals in prisons and jails, and also at-large arrests in the interior."

In fiscal year 2015, 91 percent of people removed from inside the U.S. were previously convicted of a crime."

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-d ... d=41715661
"When and if fascism comes to America... it will be called, of course, ‘Americanism'." - Halford Luccock
"Liberty without socialism is privilege and injustice. Socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality."
— Mikhail Bakunin

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zukiphile wrote:
SilasSoule wrote:What is controversial about deporting ILLEGAL/UNDOCUMENTED immigrants with CRIMINAL RECORDS?
Against a backdrop of hysteria, these simple questions stand out.
The controversy stems from not taking him at his word. Obama has been very aggressive in deportations and the notion that enough people who O would deport are still here for T to fulfill this promise with makes many think that to meet the 3 mil number, the net must be expanded.

People hear illegal/criminals not as soberly defined categories, but as accusation akin to the rapist remarks a few months ago.

That's what people are responding to negatively and, frankly, that's what people are meant to respond to positively. It is red meat for the racist anti-immigrant element of T's support. If one doesn't read the extra layer of communication, then obviously one should wonder why others are responding to this as if it is any different from what Obama did.
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Marlene wrote: The controversy stems from not taking him at his word. Obama has been very aggressive in deportations and the notion that enough people who O would deport are still here for T to fulfill this promise with makes many think that to meet the 3 mil number, the net must be expanded.

People hear illegal/criminals not as soberly defined categories, but as accusation akin to the rapist remarks a few months ago.

That's what people are responding to negatively ...
I agree that some people are responding negatively not to the stated policy, but to their inferences about the motive for the stated policy. That's why it is hysterical.
Marlene wrote:... and, frankly, that's what people are meant to respond to positively. It is red meat for the racist anti-immigrant element of T's support. If one doesn't read the extra layer of communication, then obviously one should wonder why others are responding to this as if it is any different from what Obama did.
There may be racism at work. BHO himself acknowledged that his appearance gives him some political support, as well as opposition, he might not otherwise have. The idea that a stated policy that "deporting ILLEGAL/UNDOCUMENTED immigrants with CRIMINAL RECORDS" rest on a racial motive also carries an element that isn't that isn't well reasoned.

There is a stream of sentiment in american culture that isn't especially cosmopolitan. In the late 1970s, we sent persian students back to Iran, even though those students were exactly the kind of pro-western iranian that place was eating alive. Recall in the early 1980s, bunches of trade unionists complaining about how the japanese were screwing over the american "worker", just because the japanese were assembling cars people wanted. Subsequently, some trade disincentives and domestic subsidies were introduced. We've seen demands for employer penalties that would make it more difficult for migrant workers to make a living. In this election, HRC suggested a liberalization of immigration policy in the face of a widely acknowledged failure to enforce existing immigration barriers. Voters, many of whom voted for BHO, declined the opportunity to vote for HRC.

TrueTexan finds a failure to mention illegal immigration from eastern europe odd, as if that were the current immigration problem. Anyone on either side of the issue may have a racial motive, but pretending that this is the animating force behind the same sort of enforcement present during BHO's tenure isn't sober reflection.

I agree that people should ask themselves why they react so differently when a continuation of current policy is stated by Trump.

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lurker wrote:many conservatives believe that any undocumented illegal immigrant is a criminal by definition.
By definition, illegal activity is criminal.
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
- Ronald Reagan

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lurker wrote:
dougb wrote:
lurker wrote:many conservatives believe that any undocumented illegal immigrant is a criminal by definition.
By definition, illegal activity is criminal.
yes. so any undocumented person is at risk of deportation or imprisonment. it gets very complicated, very fast.
I don't know that it becomes any more complicated. It may simply be unworkable. The immigration framework may not be well suited to the reality of having Mexico as a neighbor.

Walls fences and deportation can't stop illegal immigration because they can't stop people. The communists tried to keep germans from escaping to freedom with walls, concertina wire, kill zones, dogs and trigger happy guards, but people still found ways to get through. So long as Mexico and central america offer an inferior future to its low skill workforce and the US has a shortage of reliable and affordable labor, people will get here. The question that neither HRC nor DJT addressed was how we should regulate that.

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zukiphile wrote: I don't know that it becomes any more complicated. It may simply be unworkable.
thanks, that's pretty much where i was going. as long as the US offers a better standard of living, and as long as we have employers looking for people willing to do stoop labor and live in slum conditions for substandard wages, they will come, wall or no wall. just like my grandparents who came here from ukraine before and after ww1. i'm beginning to see hints that they may have sneaked in through canada. can't find them in the ellis island lists.
i'm retired. what's your excuse?

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dougb wrote:
lurker wrote:many conservatives believe that any undocumented illegal immigrant is a criminal by definition.
By definition, illegal activity is criminal.
By that standard parking longer than the limit is criminal.

I'm no lawyer, but as I understand it only felonies are called criminal. The rest are misdemeanors and infractions.

Most immigration violations are not felonies, or even misdemeanors. It's an administrative / civil matter. Defendants in immigration court is not entitled to an attorney, because the 6th amendment only protects criminal defendants.
Glad that federal government is boring again.

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A misdemeanor is a crime, as is speeding. Whether one is entitled to counsel doesn't bear on whether an act is a crime. Where one acts contrary to law, it is fair to call the act illegal.
lurker wrote:
zukiphile wrote: I don't know that it becomes any more complicated. It may simply be unworkable.
thanks, that's pretty much where i was going. as long as the US offers a better standard of living, and as long as we have employers looking for people willing to do stoop labor and live in slum conditions for substandard wages, they will come, wall or no wall. just like my grandparents who came here from ukraine before and after ww1. i'm beginning to see hints that they may have sneaked in through canada. can't find them in the ellis island lists.
Certainly. Your description of immigrant labor may be fairly descriptive in some parts of the country. My experience up north is that it isn't the dominant pattern here.

Mexicans are in demand in fairly skilled trades, and for the same wages citizens make in those trades. The difference is that the mexican tradesman shows up for work on time and sober, knows how to do his work, and is happy to get over-time. These are men who are here to work to make money to send home; they don't want residency or citizenship. They do want to be able to make more than they can make in Mexico.
Last edited by zukiphile on Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:11 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Stiff wrote:
dougb wrote:
lurker wrote:many conservatives believe that any undocumented illegal immigrant is a criminal by definition.
By definition, illegal activity is criminal.
By that standard parking longer than the limit is criminal.

I'm no lawyer, but as I understand it only felonies are called criminal. The rest are misdemeanors and infractions.

Most immigration violations are not felonies, or even misdemeanors. It's an administrative / civil matter. Defendants in immigration court is not entitled to an attorney, because the 6th amendment only protects criminal defendants.
interesting. any lawyers care to comment?
i'm retired. what's your excuse?

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dougb wrote:
lurker wrote:many conservatives believe that any undocumented illegal immigrant is a criminal by definition.
By definition, illegal activity is criminal.
It's a bit murkier than that actually. Roughly half of undocumented workers in the country simply over-stay their visa. That's a civil issue, not a criminal one- different courts and ways that it's handled. If they have been deported and then return, it then becomes a misdemeanor or felony, depending on the circumstances. But this group who simply didn't leave before their visa expired doesn't fall into the criminal category.

The other set, the ones that cross the border illegally without a visa, do indeed break laws- but again, it's a misdemeanor, not a felony in most cases. So, much like pot, people are charged for something menial- and they represent a small fraction of those involved in the deportation process. And in the case of unlawful entry, it must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that it happened in order for it to be charged. Mere presence isn't a criminal wrongdoing, it's a civil one.

The ACLU has a pretty good paper on the situation here:
https://www.aclu.org/files/assets/FINAL ... ERSION.pdf

And a good summary of the differences here on entry vs presence:
http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2014/0 ... sence.html

TL;DR? It's more complicated that people or politicians care to admit in most circles. A re-structuring of our immigration policy needs to happen, as was pointed out up-thread. Simply rounding up and busing them back doesn't solve the root cause of the issue, which is better jobs here, and worse conditions across the border.
“Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”
- Maya Angelou

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SilasSoule wrote:What is controversial about deporting ILLEGAL/UNDOCUMENTED immigrants with CRIMINAL RECORDS? Isn't this the current policy already? In most countries just being undocumented is enough to get you deported.

Obama Has Deported More People Than Any Other President

"Who is being deported?

President Obama directed U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) to focus on criminals, not families, during his November 2014 executive action on immigration.

According to their website, "ICE has continued to increase its focus on identifying, arresting, and removing convicted criminals in prisons and jails, and also at-large arrests in the interior."

In fiscal year 2015, 91 percent of people removed from inside the U.S. were previously convicted of a crime."

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-d ... d=41715661
I know of one instance this year of a man living in a church one mile away from Obamas house who the government wanted to deport because of a DUI from 7 years ago. Married and has kids. I saw that on Democracy Now. I wonder how he is doing or if they got him and sent him back.

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curtism1234 wrote:I am all for deporting every single illegal immigrant but understand the complexity of it. Instead of targeting a number in the millions, target the employers.

Make a fine and prison sentences so big that it will bankrupt companies and enforce it. Make a few examples and it will stop.
Some see the burden of producing ID in order to vote as too much.

Would producing ID and proof of citizenship or immigration status just to do a job be a lighter burden? Would this burden mostly disadvantage people who don't appear ordinary citizens?

It would be a sad thing to meander into a "Papieren bitte!" society.
Last edited by zukiphile on Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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zukiphile wrote:
curtism1234 wrote:I am all for deporting every single illegal immigrant but understand the complexity of it. Instead of targeting a number in the millions, target the employers.

Make a fine and prison sentences so big that it will bankrupt companies and enforce it. Make a few examples and it will stop.
Some see the burden of producing ID in order to vote too much.

Would producing ID and proof of citizenship or immigration status just to do a job be a lighter burden? Would this burden mostly disadvantage people who don't appear ordinary citizens?

It would be a sad thing to meander into a "Papieren bitte!" society.
To legally have a job in the states, one needs to provide an id, social security card, and fill out an I-9. Unless you're talking about someone who is paid cash under the table, in which case, it wouldn't matter, as the employer is already breaking the laws for tax evasion.

(Unless it is not actually an employer/employee relationship where they are contract labor and are paying self employment taxes, but documentation is required for that as well. Under $600/year from a single source also has certain exemptions)

https://www.uscis.gov/system/files_forc ... download=1
“Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”
- Maya Angelou

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zukiphile wrote:
Some see the burden of producing ID in order to vote as too much.

Would producing ID and proof of citizenship or immigration status just to do a job be a lighter burden? Would this burden mostly disadvantage people who don't appear ordinary citizens?
Every job I have ever worked required 2 forms of ID (DL and birth cert / SS) so I don't see a burden when all legitimate jobs already do it.

Now there will be a bit of HR burden to keep up with when immigration documents expire. So if you are an industry/company who hires a lot of legal immigrants you had better keep your ducks in a row and know when to ask for new paperwork / let them go. I don't think that's currently happening.

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curtism1234 wrote: Every job I have ever worked required 2 forms of ID (DL and birth cert / SS) so I don't see a burden when all legitimate jobs already do it.
Who carries a SS card? What do people who don't drive do?

You may have had some sort of specialized employment that required these documents.
curtism1234 wrote: So if you are an industry/company who hires a lot of legal immigrants you had better keep your ducks in a row and know when to ask for new paperwork / let them go. I don't think that's currently happening.
In other words, Papieren bitte.
shinzen wrote:
To legally have a job in the states, one needs to provide an id, social security card, and fill out an I-9. Unless you're talking about someone who is paid cash under the table, in which case, it wouldn't matter, as the employer is already breaking the laws for tax evasion.

(Unless it is not actually an employer/employee relationship where they are contract labor and are paying self employment taxes, but documentation is required for that as well. Under $600/year from a single source also has certain exemptions)
To legally work as an employee in the US, most of us just need to fill out a W9.

If that changes so that the penalty for hiring a non-citizen illegally is prison time and bankruptcy, then only foolish employers will continue to hire with just the W9. They will require proof that one is a citizen and ID to tie that documentation to the applicant.

A legal landscape in which all employers will make each applicant prove that he is a citizen or legal immigrant with a right to work is one that differs from current practice immensely.
Last edited by zukiphile on Mon Nov 14, 2016 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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