Under the 14th, every white man considered a person of interest in a crime should be treated as if he were Black. Lots of blue stripe flags would come down real quick.
Wait, you say? The 14th was meant to work the other way? Well, how about lets get on that then?
Of course the 2nd is not absolute. We don't let people own guns legally after they have been convicted of a felony by a jury of their peers. In some states, misdemeanor drug convictions need not apply. Why? Because these people were determined by our legal system to pose enough of a threat to society to permanently disqualify them from certain basic enumerated rights, following the process laid out by laws written by elected representatives. Nothing in the Constitution says that conviction of a crime disqualifies one from certain rights, yet we don't allow felons to associate with other felons freely either, nor force them to quarter soldiers.
Not every red flag law is crafted alike, but they share the aim of enhancing public safety through imposed limitations on access to weapons following a legal process, short of a conviction. Those limitations should follow a standard of judicial review, as with a search warrant or restrictions on travel after arrest, with clearly defined restrictions of specified duration. If conviction is a red card, 'red flag' restrictions should be a yellow card.
But! These depend on equal protection and treatment under the law! The grandson of a representative or son of a president can not be treated differently from a Black kid on the streets of Chicago. They depend on faithful implementation by local law enforcement and prosecutors. They depend on due process. We have problems here.
Root cause mitigation for social violence will do more to keep people safe. Red flag laws are a stopgap at best, like the Russian army issuing tampons to treat bullet wounds - far from ideal, but in dire extreme, better than nothing at all.
Re: Article in Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy on the importance of the 14th amendment
27"Guilty until proven innocent", that's why. That's what's wrong with them. And that's bullshit, *ESPECIALLY* when it comes to a right specifically enumerated in the Constitution.F4FEver wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 7:46 amHow are RFLaws a 'bad idea'? How would they be a 'bad idea' in the Colorado Springs shooting, since you like to bring up single anecdotal examples(lady 8 days into her 10 day waiting period)? Cuz the shooter 'would get a gun anyway'?CowboyT wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:19 pmStill doesn't mean these oppressive "Red Flag" laws are a good idea; quite the opposite, actually.
“I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!”
I know, Barry Goldwater, not a Democrat/Progressive, but in this case, he's right, 100%. What one might call "absolutism" could also be said about Harriet Tubman in her quest for Negro freedom back in the day (and BTW, she carried a gun, too). Same applies here, I think.
CDFingers also pointed out what he believes to be a difference between "liberty" and "freedom". I read the whole post. First, his mom did absolutely right when she dealt with that other girl harassing her, and while I don't know if she's still with us, I give her a high-five for that.
But here's what I believe to be the flaw in the general case he makes. Turns out the word "freedom" has more than one definition. Here's what Merriam-Webster has to say about that.
1: the quality or state of being free: such as
- a: the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action
b: liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another : independence
c: the quality or state of being exempt or released usually from something onerous
freedom from care
d: unrestricted use
gave him the freedom of their home
e: ease, facility
spoke the language with freedom
f: the quality of being frank, open, or outspoken
answered with freedom
g: improper familiarity
h: boldness of conception or execution
- a: a political right
b: franchise, privilege
Likewise, liberty also has several definitions.
1: the quality or state of being free:
- a: the power to do as one pleases
b: freedom from physical restraint
c: freedom from arbitrary or despotic (see despot sense 1) control
d: the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges
e: the power of choice
- a: a right or immunity enjoyed by prescription or by grant : privilege
b: permission especially to go freely within specified limits
was given the liberty of the house
- a: a breach of etiquette or propriety : familiarity
took undue liberties with a stranger
b: risk, chance
took foolish liberties with his health
c: a violation of rules or a deviation from standard practice
took liberties in the way he played the game
d: a distortion of fact
The movie takes many liberties with the actual events.
Here, we are obviously not talking about 3a, 3b, 3c, or 4. Rather, we are speaking of 1a, 1b, 1c, 1d, 1e, all of which refer to...freedom. To a lesser extent, we are also referring to 2a, which is lesser because it refers to privilege. One could take 2b as well, which appears to be where CDFingers is going with this, but then we run smack-dab into the entirety of the definitions under 1. In the context of the Constitution, not only that document, but also the Founding Fathers's papers on the subject, all refer primarily to the definitions under 1.
Given that, "liberty" and "freedom" are therefore synonymous in the context of government and the United States Constitution, and that is the context in which Mr. Goldwater--admittedly not my favorite, either--meant his statement. As the saying goes, even a stopped clock is right twice a day, and this is, I believe, one of Mr. Goldwater's "stopped-clock" moments. Freedom/liberty end at the point where you are actually preventing someone else from likewise exercising their rights, and therefore any limitations on freedom/liberty have to be *VERY* limited and *VERY* carefully considered.
Prof. Eben Moglen of the Software Freedom Law Center, Columbia University, and formerly chief legal counsel of the Free Software Foundation, talks about this very point.
https://downloads.softwarefreedom.org/2 ... moglen.ogg
This is definitely worth your watching, folks. He's a Liberal like us. It's because of him that Phil Zimmermann, inventor of Pretty Good Privacy, is not rotting in jail today for exercise of his First Amendment rights. It's all about the freedom. And it applies just as much to the 2A as the 1A.
And speaking of the First Amendment....
You know, I've noticed here that just about everyone else seems to want to ignore the discussion of applying this to the First Amendment as well, which I mentioned previously in another thread ("the pen is mightier than the sword"). How about we actively advocate for that as well, then--Red Flag laws for the First Amendment?
"SF Liberal With A Gun + Free Software Advocate"
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Re: Article in Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy on the importance of the 14th amendment
28Nonetheless, the Constitution promises us the blessings of Liberty. While it is true that the pen can persuade many to take up arms against "the other," in the final analysis the person who pulls the trigger makes the choice. Whether that choice is made freely with respect to decades of propaganda freely distributed, remains an interesting question.
on edit
I came back to add that, if we avoid red flag laws because there might be discrimination, we pretty much guarantee things such as the recent shooting made by a guy who certainly should not have had access to guns. I cannot support such a position.
CDFingers
on edit
I came back to add that, if we avoid red flag laws because there might be discrimination, we pretty much guarantee things such as the recent shooting made by a guy who certainly should not have had access to guns. I cannot support such a position.
CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
Re: Article in Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy on the importance of the 14th amendment
29That's exactly how Hitler managed to get into power and do what he did. Same with dictators all throughout history.CDFingers wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:25 pm Nonetheless, the Constitution promises us the blessings of Liberty. While it is true that the pen can persuade many to take up arms against "the other," in the final analysis the person who pulls the trigger makes the choice. Whether that choice is made freely with respect to decades of propaganda freely distributed, remains an interesting question.
Likewise, I cannot support a position that assumes guilt until innocence is proved, just because some White female decides to cry wolf for whatever stupid reason. That's the problem with these Red Flag laws.CDFingers wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:25 pm on edit
I came back to add that, if we avoid red flag laws because there might be discrimination, we pretty much guarantee things such as the recent shooting made by a guy who certainly should not have had access to guns. I cannot support such a position.
CDFingers
As for the "there might be discrimination" position...that's what the 14th Amendment is all about!
It looks like we simply will agree to disagree on this one. Well, this is America, and we get to do that here. That right, BTW, is backed up by the force guaranteed to us by the 2A. Worth pointing out.
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Re: Article in Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy on the importance of the 14th amendment
30We'll just have to have different positions on this. I do not understand the Hitler reference, but then, sometimes it'll be that way. I will put another statement on the mass shooting thread.
CDFingers
CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
Re: Article in Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy on the importance of the 14th amendment
31You both have points, good ones. Now how do we move forward?
Re: Article in Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy on the importance of the 14th amendment
32Sometimes, you just move on. Nice discussion, gents.
Re: Article in Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy on the importance of the 14th amendment
33Fair enough; I'll explain. It was simply that Hitler managed to use the "mighty pen" to get people to support him, and then he used the "mighty pen" again to direct the hatred against the Jews and other "non-Aryans". Other dictators have done similar things. That's why the pen can be so dangerous, guns or not.CDFingers wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 7:11 pm We'll just have to have different positions on this. I do not understand the Hitler reference, but then, sometimes it'll be that way. I will put another statement on the mass shooting thread.
CDFingers
Yeah, I think this has been a good discussion. I'm very glad that we live in a country where we *can* have discussions like this openly, and keep it civil. That's a really good thing, folks.
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Re: Article in Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy on the importance of the 14th amendment
34Wings gets it....'others', where absolute-ism is their mantra, don't. A identified dangerous person, who has made threats of violence using a gun, to others...sure, let him own as many guns as he wants. I guess 'some' think the body count via 'mass shootings' in the US is the 'price we pay' for the 2A..BS to that.wings wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 7:54 am Under the 14th, every white man considered a person of interest in a crime should be treated as if he were Black. Lots of blue stripe flags would come down real quick.
Wait, you say? The 14th was meant to work the other way? Well, how about lets get on that then?
Of course the 2nd is not absolute. We don't let people own guns legally after they have been convicted of a felony by a jury of their peers. In some states, misdemeanor drug convictions need not apply. Why? Because these people were determined by our legal system to pose enough of a threat to society to permanently disqualify them from certain basic enumerated rights, following the process laid out by laws written by elected representatives. Nothing in the Constitution says that conviction of a crime disqualifies one from certain rights, yet we don't allow felons to associate with other felons freely either, nor force them to quarter soldiers.
Not every red flag law is crafted alike, but they share the aim of enhancing public safety through imposed limitations on access to weapons following a legal process, short of a conviction. Those limitations should follow a standard of judicial review, as with a search warrant or restrictions on travel after arrest, with clearly defined restrictions of specified duration. If conviction is a red card, 'red flag' restrictions should be a yellow card.
But! These depend on equal protection and treatment under the law! The grandson of a representative or son of a president can not be treated differently from a Black kid on the streets of Chicago. They depend on faithful implementation by local law enforcement and prosecutors. They depend on due process. We have problems here.
Root cause mitigation for social violence will do more to keep people safe. Red flag laws are a stopgap at best, like the Russian army issuing tampons to treat bullet wounds - far from ideal, but in dire extreme, better than nothing at all.
That's why RFL, when applied properly, doesn't assume anything. That's why both parties, with legal counsel, stand before a judge. It's NOT just "some White female deciding to cry wolf for whatever stupid reason". That happened in Colorado and the lady ended up getting charged with perjury.Likewise, I cannot support a position that assumes guilt until innocence is proved, just because some White female decides to cry wolf for whatever stupid reason. That's the problem with these Red Flag laws.
BTW-get a traffic ticket, go to court to 'prove your innocence'...and undoubtedly 'some' don't like background checks either...trying to 'prove' you are legally 'allowed' to own a gun...
Re: Article in Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy on the importance of the 14th amendment
35Not to put too fine a point on this, but the shooters are men.
Think about that for a moment, guys.
CDFingers
Think about that for a moment, guys.
CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
Re: Article in Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy on the importance of the 14th amendment
36Yup that is true in most cases, it's rare to see a female mass shooter, mass murderer or just responsible for mass injuries.CDFingers wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:55 am Not to put too fine a point on this, but the shooters are men.
Think about that for a moment, guys.
CDFingers
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Re: Article in Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy on the importance of the 14th amendment
37I guess I do have to put a fine point on it. Statistically, the mass shooter phenomenon is uniquely male.highdesert wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:44 amYup that is true in most cases, it's rare to see a female mass shooter, mass murderer or just responsible for mass injuries.CDFingers wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:55 am Not to put too fine a point on this, but the shooters are men.
Think about that for a moment, guys.
CDFingers
CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
Re: Article in Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy on the importance of the 14th amendment
38Our society raises men to think violence is a way to address issues. It also raises men to see women objectified, thanksgiving day parade is a typical example. End result is messed up men, ones who think they are privileged and allowed to use violence to address their perceived wrongs and project violence toward those who they perceive as rejecting them.CDFingers wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:09 amI guess I do have to put a fine point on it. Statistically, the mass shooter phenomenon is uniquely male.highdesert wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:44 amYup that is true in most cases, it's rare to see a female mass shooter, mass murderer or just responsible for mass injuries.CDFingers wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:55 am Not to put too fine a point on this, but the shooters are men.
Think about that for a moment, guys.
CDFingers
CDFingers
Re: Article in Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy on the importance of the 14th amendment
39sika, that is such a primo piece of support for root-cause mitigation.
CDFingers
CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
Re: Article in Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy on the importance of the 14th amendment
40Absolutely.CDFingers wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:36 am sika, that is such a primo piece of support for root-cause mitigation.
CDFingers
Re: Article in Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy on the importance of the 14th amendment
41So many of the root causes can be lumped together with a single word, Despair. I give President Clinton credit for trying to address it when he said:CDFingers wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:36 am sika, that is such a primo piece of support for root-cause mitigation.
CDFingers
. . . anxious Americans may feel "like they're lost in the fun house" and that it is his job to "get people out of their funk about it."
"What makes people insecure is when they feel like they're lost in the fun house," he said. "They're in a room where something can hit them from any direction at any time; they always feel that living life is like walking across a running river on slippery rocks and you can lose your footing at any time."
"Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.” Matt. 25:40