Western liberal militia?

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ElectricSailboats
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Re: Western liberal militia?

#51 Post by ElectricSailboats » Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:04 pm

@damnitman Yes, the right wing militia philosophy is deeply flawed, especially since it is wrapped in the American flag, when what they think stands directly in contrast to the Constitution and American democracy. And my knowledge of deep, dark right-wing philosophy has been part of my upbringing that I escaped. In fact, my long-time acquaintenance literally owns the building where the KKK started as I grew up on a cattle ranch in Pulaski, Tenn.

And, I agree that right now we have to focus on voting. My own brother in Georgia, a possible swing state, is apathetic about voting, but I am working on getting him and everyone in swingy states I know to vote. I also have donated to campaigns in North Carolina, Iowa, South Carolina and Texas as well as the national campaign.

But, I think we have to look beyond this. We stood with our pants down as Obama was denied the Constitutional right to appoint a supreme court judge in 2016. There is literally no ethical limit or boundary as to what could transpire if allowed in 2020. I have run for office once myself and my race was written up 6 times due to the corruption my opponent engaged in - but all the articles came after the race was over and nothing could be done. I should have seen it coming, but I didn't.

Now, I have an eye for these things ahead of time. What I see transpiring in 2-3 months time is not pretty. Today, I realize most folks on this board think I am some new crazy to deal with. Takea look at this thread 2-3 months from now and I am curious what you will think then.

I do think we can prevent violence, but a strong show of force is necessary because right-wingers don't have a realistic concept of right and wrong or democracy and facism. They are opportunists (bullies) who only see what they can or cannot get away with. I think organized liberal miltias would never be needed, but would make bullies think twice as bullies only act if they know others will cower. My whole goal in having organized liberal militias is to prevent bullies from thinking they can act with impunity and not because I ever want to see violence.

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Re: Western liberal militia?

#52 Post by jelazar » Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:53 pm

I understand what many are saying about the literal meaning as in the Const., but I guess I took the question more like "is there a way for the left to get organized if things go south around the election". Yes, the right wing groups are generally Good Ol' Boys getting together and practicing shooting drills etc and for the most part have not been a threat. That said, what happens when the election turns south and the left has no groups? I do not just trust the efforts of a National Guard to help stop the wave of right nutties coming into cities or a particular area. While I'm sure they are/will be somewhat effective, just don't think it'll be enough. I feel like it would a fools errand to just wait at the last minute to put something together. Yes, voting right now is the priority. But that's already a given. Pretty sure most all here are already planning on doing that, so no need to state that. I'm not talking about physically getting together to practice our shooting now, just maybe getting organized behind the scenes and putting things in place with info, contact numbers, ways of communicating with each other, etc in a localized way, then spreading that to regions then states and so on. (even more than now). Guess my point in the end was I understood what the author really meant. Hope I was right in my thinking.

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Re: Western liberal militia?

#53 Post by lurker » Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:14 pm

not the club's mission. for what it's worth.
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Re: Western liberal militia?

#54 Post by SpaceRanger42 » Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:38 pm

Wow you guys really dog piled on the OP.
State militia- Some states do still have their own official militia. Washington, for example has it's very own official militia separate from the national guard. The standards of health and physical fitness are actually higher for the militia. My fat geeky near middle aged ass would never qualify.

Stop being afraid of the word militia. If dude wants to team up with other like minded folks and train quit nay saying them. Though considering the issues with the pandemic, I can't really recommend it. Probability would suggest that there is a liberal militia out there somewhere but no one is talking about it because it's a charged term with negative connotations.

Hey Sailboats, if you want to train with people and group up to prep for the "just in case" you do it man. Don't let people gaslight you into complacency.
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Re: Western liberal militia?

#55 Post by HuckleberryFun » Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:03 pm

SpaceRanger42 wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:38 pm Wow you guys really dog piled on the OP.
State militia- Some states do still have their own official militia. Washington, for example has it's very own official militia separate from the national guard. The standards of health and physical fitness are actually higher for the militia. My fat geeky near middle aged ass would never qualify.

Stop being afraid of the word militia. If dude wants to team up with other like minded folks and train quit nay saying them. Though considering the issues with the pandemic, I can't really recommend it. Probability would suggest that there is a liberal militia out there somewhere but no one is talking about it because it's a charged term with negative connotations.

Hey Sailboats, if you want to train with people and group up to prep for the "just in case" you do it man. Don't let people gaslight you into complacency.
I’m a native of Washington, though I live in Oregon now. My mother’s family goes way back to Territory days and were some of the very first settlers in Skagit County, where they still have working farms. You’re talking about the Washington State Guard (the direct descendent of the Washington Territorial Militia). The so-called Washington State Militia has no state affiliation and has been categorized as a terrorist group.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_State_Guard

https://www.trackingterrorism.org/grou ... te-militia

Under state law, the militia is defined as the Organized Militia (WA National Guard and the Washington State Guard) and the Unorganized Militia (all those over 18 who are eligible for military service who are NOT in the NG or SG) anyone else who presents as a “militia” is a poser at best or a potential terrorist at worst. Be careful who you buddy up with, it may well bite you in the ass hard.
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Re: Western liberal militia?

#56 Post by lurker » Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:17 pm

maybe if the new members had bothered to establish some history and credibility here before they opened up the militia can of worms, they would have gotten a kinder, gentler welcome. how do we know they're not spies or provocateurs looking to infiltrate, implicate? yes, it's a very real possibility. just because we're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get us. no, we're probably not antifa supreme HQ.

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Re: Western liberal militia?

#57 Post by rolandson » Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:59 pm

I tend to bunch the preppers whose interest in preparedness is seemingly limited to amassing guns and ammunition, and what they like to refer to in code speak as the zombie apocalypse or some shtf scenario that they envision as granting carte blanche to shooting anyone they feel like shooting* ... together with the Waco cult type wannabe morons looking for any excuse to start shooting anyone they feel like shooting.

And I don't think their presence here provides any sort of contribution. In fact, I think discussions centering on the bestest violence ever have no place here.

*in juxtaposition to those who stock food and water and clothing to help themselves and their neighbors weather some calamity or another. Another rather clear distinction.
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Re: Western liberal militia?

#58 Post by SpaceRanger42 » Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:51 pm

Yes Huck I mean the State Guard. They are still a militia force even if the word militia isn't in the name.
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Re: Western liberal militia?

#59 Post by SpaceRanger42 » Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:53 pm

lurker wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:17 pm maybe if the new members had bothered to establish some history and credibility here before they opened up the militia can of worms, they would have gotten a kinder, gentler welcome. how do we know they're not spies or provocateurs looking to infiltrate, implicate? yes, it's a very real possibility. just because we're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get us. no, we're probably not antifa supreme HQ.
You're being sarcastic right?
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Re: Western liberal militia?

#60 Post by lurker » Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:54 pm

no. libertas gravitas civitas

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Re: Western liberal militia?

#61 Post by UnderNoPretext » Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:27 am

ElectricSailboats wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:04 pmWhat I see transpiring in 2-3 months time is not pretty.
Hi. I'm another suspect new member here. My best guess is that Liberals need to get ready, or else they are going to get caught with their pants down. I really, really hope I'm wrong.

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Re: Western liberal militia?

#62 Post by sikacz » Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:30 am

sig230 wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:24 am
sikacz wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:54 pm
wings wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:50 pm The National Guard is "the" militia. It should, by rights, be non-partisan, geared towards community defense, responsive to local elected officials, and following all applicable laws and codes of conduct. If you're looking to serve, they recruit.

They do good work. Disaster response in particular.

Laws regarding defensive use of firearms vary from state to state, but they tend to focus on response to immediate threats to human life, not existential threats to the Constitution. The club certainly doesn't advocate illegal activity or violence, and we're all a little prickly about potential trolls and provocateurs. Can't imagine why.
The "militia" refers to the people in a specified age bracket and at the time of the framing. male. It has nothing to do with the National Guard.
This is not the 1700s.
That doesn’t change what the intent was and how it was originally defined which is what I was talking about. There was no standing army and we have one now.
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Re: Western liberal militia?

#63 Post by Rossifan1782 » Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:33 am

Part of what concerns me with regards to forming or being a part of a milita are the pitfalls of practicality. Assuming that a liberal milita intends to be a legally sound moral entity intended towards acting to preserve the constitution and defend people, I do not see how anything short of a massive group politically connected group would be remotely useful.

So assuming the above, the milita would not be a proactive group, because we currently have law enforcement and military that defend the constitution. So really we are talking about a group that would need to muster, gather whatever in reaction to something. Let's say you have 500 people across a state whom regularly train and communicate with each other as a milita.

500 is not an inconsequential number of people, however to leverage that force you would need to get everyone together and you would need to find a way to help without getting in the way of other actors. These kinds of things are not easy to do in a crisis.

If your militia lives say roughly an hour from your muster point that designated spot may not be accessible to everyone in your group if roads are closed, movement is restricted that muster point may not be strategically sound or there are bad people in the way. So you are probably not mustering at full force if at all.

Then comes being useful instead of a hindrance to other actors who have jurisdiction. Who do you connect with? How do you know which person or agency is doing what and if your people will just be in the way of that effort? You decide to secure a bridge, what if the national guard needs to blow that bridge up?

More likely than not imo a milita especially one that is not extremely localized will be a hindrance to police medical and military operations. I get wanting to train, practice and be prepared however I do not see how a milita could practically get together and somehow avoid being in the way of others. I could see people rallying their neighbors defending their homes and contacting their local officials (mayor, police chief county sheriff) if they had preexisting relationships. To me that makes sense which is why I said a neighborhood watch.

"Hi my milita would like to defend your town" in the middle of a crisis is just not going to go over well in my opinion.

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Re: Western liberal militia?

#64 Post by sikacz » Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:57 am

One thing to remember, colonial militias had already existed for a long time prior to the revolution. Some form of community defense was undoubtedly fairly common. That said, concentrate on knowing your neighbors and prepare to help in case of natural disasters or other community related events. For today’s political situation the system is still supposed to be working, use it. Although there is nothing wrong with getting to know your local club members and sharing knowledge, that is not however meant to mean y’all are a militia. As a club, that is not the goal here as noted. I would remind people, propaganda is a tool of misinformation and under elections in recent past years it’s use common. Do your civic duty or don’t, don’t create panic or be a part of creating panic, and just observe and wait. Let the process work and don’t get into arguments with right wing nut jobs. Let them make all the noise they want, at least you’ll know who they are. Stay calm and stay safe.
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Re: Western liberal militia?

#65 Post by ElectricSailboats » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:17 am

lurker wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:17 pm maybe if the new members had bothered to establish some history and credibility here before they opened up the militia can of worms, they would have gotten a kinder, gentler welcome. how do we know they're not spies or provocateurs looking to infiltrate, implicate? yes, it's a very real possibility. just because we're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get us. no, we're probably not antifa supreme HQ.
Lurker, I apologize that I did not sufficiently lurk and then kiss your arse for a couple months before posting about my concerns for what will happen this fall and how we relatively few liberal gun owners can do something that possibly prevents violence and protects our democracy. I don't know why I would ever want to try to do those two things with any sense of urgency.

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Re: Western liberal militia?

#66 Post by ElectricSailboats » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:21 am

Rossifan1782 wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:33 am Part of what concerns me with regards to forming or being a part of a milita are the pitfalls of practicality. Assuming that a liberal milita intends to be a legally sound moral entity intended towards acting to preserve the constitution and defend people, I do not see how anything short of a massive group politically connected group would be remotely useful.

So assuming the above, the milita would not be a proactive group, because we currently have law enforcement and military that defend the constitution. So really we are talking about a group that would need to muster, gather whatever in reaction to something. Let's say you have 500 people across a state whom regularly train and communicate with each other as a milita.

500 is not an inconsequential number of people, however to leverage that force you would need to get everyone together and you would need to find a way to help without getting in the way of other actors. These kinds of things are not easy to do in a crisis.

If your militia lives say roughly an hour from your muster point that designated spot may not be accessible to everyone in your group if roads are closed, movement is restricted that muster point may not be strategically sound or there are bad people in the way. So you are probably not mustering at full force if at all.

Then comes being useful instead of a hindrance to other actors who have jurisdiction. Who do you connect with? How do you know which person or agency is doing what and if your people will just be in the way of that effort? You decide to secure a bridge, what if the national guard needs to blow that bridge up?

More likely than not imo a milita especially one that is not extremely localized will be a hindrance to police medical and military operations. I get wanting to train, practice and be prepared however I do not see how a milita could practically get together and somehow avoid being in the way of others. I could see people rallying their neighbors defending their homes and contacting their local officials (mayor, police chief county sheriff) if they had preexisting relationships. To me that makes sense which is why I said a neighborhood watch.

"Hi my milita would like to defend your town" in the middle of a crisis is just not going to go over well in my opinion.
These are great thoughts and once reason I googled to find this board. Conservatives and especially the radical conservatives think that no liberal owns a gun. I think some self-organization on the left that is not radical would give them pause to do illegal and bully tactics and possibly, possibly, take away from the baseless arguements that liberals want to take away guns. I mean Biden is a gun owner and Trump is not for crying out loud.

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Re: Western liberal militia?

#67 Post by sikacz » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:27 am

ElectricSailboats wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:17 am
lurker wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:17 pm maybe if the new members had bothered to establish some history and credibility here before they opened up the militia can of worms, they would have gotten a kinder, gentler welcome. how do we know they're not spies or provocateurs looking to infiltrate, implicate? yes, it's a very real possibility. just because we're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get us. no, we're probably not antifa supreme HQ.
Lurker, I apologize that I did not sufficiently lurk and then kiss your arse for a couple months before posting about my concerns for what will happen this fall and how we relatively few liberal gun owners can do something that possibly prevents violence and protects our democracy. I don't know why I would ever want to try to do those two things with any sense of urgency.
Your question has already been answered, get active in your community and get to know your neighbors is a pretty good start. There’s a reason militia talk is looked on with skepticism, there are laws governing such in many states and the federal level. Also, it’s not the purpose of this club and our mission statement is pretty clear on our purpose. No need to get upset or agitated, this is just a discussion.
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Re: Western liberal militia?

#68 Post by damnitman » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:29 am

First of all, I do not believe we have fallen to the point where we need to be considering civil war as an answer to our political problems. Second of all there are good reasons not to be afraid of the "militias" that we see at protests.

An effective "militia" would not be what people tend to think of. (as in the post above.) What would be more likely to be successful would be a resistance based on a cellular system, traditionally based on groups of five or so. The cell leader only knowing the five in his or her group and his or her direct superior, the five rank and file members only knowing each other and their leader. Communications would be based on dead-drops and code books. Security would be the only thing keeping the groups functional. Brains in such an organization would be more important than guns.

Massed resistance is not viable in the age of satellites and drones. To gather 500 loudmouthed rednecks all calling and texting each other, and armed with Budweiser, pickup trucks and guns would be an invitation to a massacre. (first of all, 10% of them will be undercover cops) Successful military units are totally dependent upon discipline, security and most of all logistics; what will you do with your sick and wounded, where is your next meal coming for, who is going to replace that ammo you just shot up, how are you going to get those 500 guys from base camp to target? You never hear the internet warriors discussing logistical issues more complicated than the contents of their bug-out-bags....

Internet "militias" would be the first victims of the Helter Skelter that they dream of. In my opinion, their plans, or lack thereof, are based on testosterone, emotion, ignorance and a lack of historical perspective. Most of the military wannabes are already known to law enforcement, because they run their mouths and advertise their intent. They are in the words of the great poets, F*****g fools,

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Re: Western liberal militia?

#69 Post by sikacz » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:37 am

ElectricSailboats wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:21 am
Rossifan1782 wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:33 am Part of what concerns me with regards to forming or being a part of a milita are the pitfalls of practicality. Assuming that a liberal milita intends to be a legally sound moral entity intended towards acting to preserve the constitution and defend people, I do not see how anything short of a massive group politically connected group would be remotely useful.

So assuming the above, the milita would not be a proactive group, because we currently have law enforcement and military that defend the constitution. So really we are talking about a group that would need to muster, gather whatever in reaction to something. Let's say you have 500 people across a state whom regularly train and communicate with each other as a milita.

500 is not an inconsequential number of people, however to leverage that force you would need to get everyone together and you would need to find a way to help without getting in the way of other actors. These kinds of things are not easy to do in a crisis.

If your militia lives say roughly an hour from your muster point that designated spot may not be accessible to everyone in your group if roads are closed, movement is restricted that muster point may not be strategically sound or there are bad people in the way. So you are probably not mustering at full force if at all.

Then comes being useful instead of a hindrance to other actors who have jurisdiction. Who do you connect with? How do you know which person or agency is doing what and if your people will just be in the way of that effort? You decide to secure a bridge, what if the national guard needs to blow that bridge up?

More likely than not imo a milita especially one that is not extremely localized will be a hindrance to police medical and military operations. I get wanting to train, practice and be prepared however I do not see how a milita could practically get together and somehow avoid being in the way of others. I could see people rallying their neighbors defending their homes and contacting their local officials (mayor, police chief county sheriff) if they had preexisting relationships. To me that makes sense which is why I said a neighborhood watch.

"Hi my milita would like to defend your town" in the middle of a crisis is just not going to go over well in my opinion.
These are great thoughts and once reason I googled to find this board. Conservatives and especially the radical conservatives think that no liberal owns a gun. I think some self-organization on the left that is not radical would give them pause to do illegal and bully tactics and possibly, possibly, take away from the baseless arguements that liberals want to take away guns. I mean Biden is a gun owner and Trump is not for crying out loud.
Well that “self-organization” is bit of a sticking point, legality and all that. Our purpose is to be here for liberal gun owners and liberals that want to learn about guns. That said there’s actual organizations out there, I won’t list the names.
Last edited by sikacz on Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Western liberal militia?

#70 Post by sikacz » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:40 am

damnitman wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:29 am First of all, I do not believe we have fallen to the point where we need to be considering civil war as an answer to our political problems. Second of all there are good reasons not to be afraid of the "militias" that we see at protests.

An effective "militia" would not be what people tend to think of. (as in the post above.) What would be more likely to be successful would be a resistance based on a cellular system, traditionally based on groups of five or so. The cell leader only knowing the five in his or her group and his or her direct superior, the five rank and file members only knowing each other and their leader. Communications would be based on dead-drops and code books. Security would be the only thing keeping the groups functional. Brains in such an organization would be more important than guns.

Massed resistance is not viable in the age of satellites and drones. To gather 500 loudmouthed rednecks all calling and texting each other, and armed with Budweiser, pickup trucks and guns would be an invitation to a massacre. (first of all, 10% of them will be undercover cops) Successful military units are totally dependent upon discipline, security and most of all logistics; what will you do with your sick and wounded, where is your next meal coming for, who is going to replace that ammo you just shot up, how are you going to get those 500 guys from base camp to target? You never hear the internet warriors discussing logistical issues more complicated than the contents of their bug-out-bags....

Internet "militias" would be the first victims of the Helter Skelter that they dream of. In my opinion, their plans, or lack thereof, are based on testosterone, emotion, ignorance and a lack of historical perspective. Most of the military wannabes are already known to law enforcement, because they run their mouths and advertise their intent. They are in the words of the great poets, F*****g fools,
Yes, agree. Everything is local. Definitely don’t advertise.
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Re: Western liberal militia?

#71 Post by lurker » Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:19 am

last time before this i was told to kiss somebody's ass, it was a trumpster. enjoy the forum.

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Re: Western liberal militia?

#72 Post by CDFingers » Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:03 pm

ElectricSailboats wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:17 am
lurker wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:17 pm maybe if the new members had bothered to establish some history and credibility here before they opened up the militia can of worms, they would have gotten a kinder, gentler welcome. how do we know they're not spies or provocateurs looking to infiltrate, implicate? yes, it's a very real possibility. just because we're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get us. no, we're probably not antifa supreme HQ.
Lurker, I apologize that I did not sufficiently lurk and then kiss your arse for a couple months before posting about my concerns for what will happen this fall and how we relatively few liberal gun owners can do something that possibly prevents violence and protects our democracy. I don't know why I would ever want to try to do those two things with any sense of urgency.
And now you know why I jumped into your saddle bags when you rode on in here.

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Re: Western liberal militia?

#73 Post by YankeeTarheel » Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:59 pm

Seems to me that if you're a fairly large group of men and women carrying arms...and you're not out shooting pests like coyotes and wild pigs, but marching down a street, you've ALREADY become a radical, whether Right or Left, because your aim is to use your fire power to intimidate somebody or other. Playing soldier gets people killed. I won't play soldier. If circumstance force me to become one and I hope with all my being they don't, so be it, but I won't be "playing".

I've known too many people who've been to war and never met one yet that relished it. Only psycho nuts like Tom Cotton and Erik Prince do. When I was 10 in summer camp, the camp bus driver had fought in Korea. Naively, I asked if he had killed anyone and all he said was "I don't talk about it." shutting me down. As he was right to.
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Re: Western liberal militia?

#74 Post by SpaceRanger42 » Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:05 pm

lurker wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:54 pm no. libertas gravitas civitas
I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.
Sailboats had a great reply. No one who joins the forum should be expected to lurk around for a few months kissing ass and keeping to themselves. I have no idea if they are a right winger troll. I don't assume they are just because they are new to the forums and their question seems in earnest. Despite that I have seen a lot of people gaslighting and gatekeeping, which as the left of center, socially aware know are abusive behavior patterns that we should probably be avoiding. Why don't you give them the benefit of the doubt.
Never smile too big, the gods may mistake it for hubris.

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Re: Western liberal militia?

#75 Post by rolandson » Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:52 pm

lurker wrote: Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:54 pm no. libertas gravitas civitas
Lurker, this is a concept lost upon more than just a few here. Just remember, the ignore feature is your friend.
good tea, nice house

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