posted this to my FB.
"joe, pushing for more ineffectual, unconstitutional gun control could be the easiest way to throw away this election. there are so many other things you could do, that you need to do. stop it, just stop."
i'll rely, as i've always had to rely, on the supreme court to safeguard what remains of the 2nd. risky, yes, i know. but this question lies at the core of what i see as the difference between right and left. right wants one bundling of the BOR, left wants another. right claims that the 2nd is the last line of defense of the BOR, and i agree. i prefer to defend them from the front, not the rear. i'll risk the 2nd if the other amendments are safe, because risking all the others to defend the 2nd just seems backwards to me. blue wave, baby.
Re: Biden calls for gun ban
27i believe the article overstates the case. a vote for neither is not a vote for chumpanzee, it's a half-vote for him. two votes for neither is a vote for chump.
i'm retired. what's your excuse?
Re: Biden calls for gun ban
28I did say a bit. But I don't agree with it being "a half-vote", it's simply a "not vote". When the outcomes of both are harmful there is a point where the integrity of ones belief matter more, that is the conscience part and a judgement call reserved to every person regardless of origin, sex or any other factor. What my detractors want to imply is that my withholding is because of a single issue, it's not.
Re: Biden calls for gun ban
29Sure, the lesser of two evils are still evil. If I choose the lesser evil then I’m still evil. I understand the ideological purity argument just fine, whether I agree with it is a different matter.sikacz wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:25 pm Presumptions and prejudices, your justification is your own not mine and I'd prefer my reasons to not be labeled by you or framed by you or anyone else. From your response I can see you are not even close to understanding my thoughts on this subject. My vote represents my beliefs and values, not yours or any party's. Vote your own conscience and I will act on mine.
Perhaps a bit in this I agree with..
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/05/01 ... sser-evil/
Glad that federal government is boring again.
Re: Biden calls for gun ban
30Yeah, sorry about that. At the time I posted that I could only find four articles, all from the right-wing press.
I think it's a little odd given that the Biden campaign strategy seems to be all about flipping off the left and peeling off Republican voters.
Re: Biden calls for gun ban
31I see the Biden/Harris strategy as "Repair the idiocy and pass the torch."
Winning.
CDFingers
Winning.
CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
Re: Biden calls for gun ban
32No law can be passed and enforced without the tacit approval of all three branches of government. Biden can't pass a gun ban, Congress does. Congress can't enforce a gun ban, the President does. The Courts can't do either, but they can tell both Congress and the Executive to shove it when they cross the line and violate the Constitution.
If you don't have faith in at least one of those branches to protect your rights, if you've lost faith in American democracy and the Constitution, I understand - but I don't accept it. We can fight for all of those rights, simultaneously, while still recognizing that every single person ever elected will at some point support restricting one right in the name of another. There are always going to be conflicts.
Bans are stupid, but they're also unenforceable. Even trying to will set off that damn right-wing insurrection assuming we're not there by January already. It isn't going to happen. Kids in cages? Already happening. Forced hysterctomies? Already happening. I see a metric shitload of right wingers clutching their guns so they can "defend the Constitution from a tyrannical government" refusing to lift a finger to do when brown people are targeted.
None of us are safe. If Trump gets another term, they're coming after us, because we're the armed liberals. Not voting for Biden is suicide.
If you don't have faith in at least one of those branches to protect your rights, if you've lost faith in American democracy and the Constitution, I understand - but I don't accept it. We can fight for all of those rights, simultaneously, while still recognizing that every single person ever elected will at some point support restricting one right in the name of another. There are always going to be conflicts.
Bans are stupid, but they're also unenforceable. Even trying to will set off that damn right-wing insurrection assuming we're not there by January already. It isn't going to happen. Kids in cages? Already happening. Forced hysterctomies? Already happening. I see a metric shitload of right wingers clutching their guns so they can "defend the Constitution from a tyrannical government" refusing to lift a finger to do when brown people are targeted.
None of us are safe. If Trump gets another term, they're coming after us, because we're the armed liberals. Not voting for Biden is suicide.
Re: Biden calls for gun ban
33Some people aren't going to vote or are going to vote 3rd party.
I posted a couple months ago on a different thread that when I was younger and pissed off I voted 3rd party because neither of the big 2 really spoke for me. Biggest political mistake of my life. Yeah, I voted green then because I didn't think anyone was taking the environment seriously enough (I still think that).
I'm not young and pissed off anymore. I'm gray and very concerned. I live in a small midwestern town and yesterday there was an alarmingly large Trump rally on our main street. It was a very unnerving sight. These are people I know, and I know what's driving them--it ain't anything good, and they're feeling very emboldened by the past 4 years.
There's nothing pure in a democracy. You argue for and support the things you want. Then election day comes and there's only a binary choice that isn't going to reflect everything you want, so you cast the best vote you can. It's not compromising and it's not being soft. It's a reality based decision.
So my argument is, don't skip the vote and don't vote 3rd party. Either Trump or Biden is going to be the next President. So vote for Trump or vote for Biden. Stand up and be counted. You're voting for a whole package either way, and it's coming with stuff you don't like either way.
I'm speaking my piece, but I doubt I'm going to convince anyone. If the whole package that Trump represents is acceptable because you're concerned about your 2A rights, then vote for Trump. I can't picture that, but everyone do your thing--just don't sit this out or pretend that you're taking some noble principled stand by voting for "none of the above." "None of the above" cannot take the oath of office in January, but either Trump or Biden will.
I posted a couple months ago on a different thread that when I was younger and pissed off I voted 3rd party because neither of the big 2 really spoke for me. Biggest political mistake of my life. Yeah, I voted green then because I didn't think anyone was taking the environment seriously enough (I still think that).
I'm not young and pissed off anymore. I'm gray and very concerned. I live in a small midwestern town and yesterday there was an alarmingly large Trump rally on our main street. It was a very unnerving sight. These are people I know, and I know what's driving them--it ain't anything good, and they're feeling very emboldened by the past 4 years.
There's nothing pure in a democracy. You argue for and support the things you want. Then election day comes and there's only a binary choice that isn't going to reflect everything you want, so you cast the best vote you can. It's not compromising and it's not being soft. It's a reality based decision.
So my argument is, don't skip the vote and don't vote 3rd party. Either Trump or Biden is going to be the next President. So vote for Trump or vote for Biden. Stand up and be counted. You're voting for a whole package either way, and it's coming with stuff you don't like either way.
I'm speaking my piece, but I doubt I'm going to convince anyone. If the whole package that Trump represents is acceptable because you're concerned about your 2A rights, then vote for Trump. I can't picture that, but everyone do your thing--just don't sit this out or pretend that you're taking some noble principled stand by voting for "none of the above." "None of the above" cannot take the oath of office in January, but either Trump or Biden will.
Re: Biden calls for gun ban
34that, and "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".
i'm retired. what's your excuse?
Re: Biden calls for gun ban
35There's no purity issued involved when the only thing one agree with a candidate on is, they are not trump and the letter D. None of the above is not a candidate, perhaps the party's involved should actually try to build a bigger tent and select better candidates. The issue is not my lack of desire to vote reprehensible candidates like biden and harris, but the political establishments and their backers desire to push their self serving agenda over the welfare and needs of the people. It's not served by the lesser of two evils, it ends up exactly where we are, a choice between two corporatists. In this case they are both my "enemy" since neither is a friend. The ballot box is the expression of your conscience and values. If that is an obscene concept to y'all, fine, it's not to me. I'll stand by my liberal left values any day over blind obedience to a political party that has long ago left the people behind. Side note, this is not The Democratic Gun Club, it is The Liberal Gun Club.
Re: Biden calls for gun ban
37I’m never tired of pointing out that even in a proportional system you still don’t get everything you want. The Green party would get maybe 5% of the vote, and would still need to create a coalition with another party to reach 51%. If Bernie is a party he’d get around 20%, so he’d still need to compromise with Biden’s party to form a government.
In a winner-takes-all system you make the compromise, in a proportional system your party does it for you.
In a winner-takes-all system you make the compromise, in a proportional system your party does it for you.
Glad that federal government is boring again.
Re: Biden calls for gun ban
38y'all need to own and shoot 1911s, this glock/cz/ruger/whatever other inferior model nonsense is, well, nonsense.
i'm retired. what's your excuse?
Re: Biden calls for gun ban
39How about this, they means test the efficacy of a total ban on firearms in private hands vs them getting removed from office 100%.
If they are willing to lose over this issue, then their stance on socialized medicine is criminal.
If they are willing to lose over this issue, then their stance on socialized medicine is criminal.
In a bacon, egg and cheese sandwich the chicken and cow are involved while the pig is committed.
Re: Biden calls for gun ban
40Agreed, this is not The Democratic Gun Club. Others might argue for that, not me.sikacz wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:03 pm There's no purity issued involved when the only thing one agree with a candidate on is, they are not trump and the letter D. None of the above is not a candidate, perhaps the party's involved should actually try to build a bigger tent and select better candidates. The issue is not my lack of desire to vote reprehensible candidates like biden and harris, but the political establishments and their backers desire to push their self serving agenda over the welfare and needs of the people. It's not served by the lesser of two evils, it ends up exactly where we are, a choice between two corporatists. In this case they are both my "enemy" since neither is a friend. The ballot box is the expression of your conscience and values. If that is an obscene concept to y'all, fine, it's not to me. I'll stand by my liberal left values any day over blind obedience to a political party that has long ago left the people behind. Side note, this is not The Democratic Gun Club, it is The Liberal Gun Club.
If:
- Democrats and Republicans are just two similar "corporatist" parties.
- Democrats are putting up "reprehensible candidates like biden and harris".
- Both parties are evil ("lesser of two evils").
- One values one's 2A rights and the the Democrats want to take your guns.
Then:
- Trump is a reasonable vote.
I'm only saying this is a not a sit on the sidelines kind of year. And like I said above, "none of the above" is sitting on the sidelines. Unfortunately, the way we elect our President 3rd party votes are also sitting on the sidelines. So there's two package deals sitting on the ballot this November, which one do you want sworn in?
I'm not arguing for this to be the Democratic Gun Club. I'm just stating my strong belief that this is not a "they're all the same, so it doesn't matter anyway" kind of year. If you disagree and they all look the same to you, then vote for your gun rights. Trump says he's the guy to trust on that regard.
Re: Biden calls for gun ban
41Makes sense but for the Rugers.lurker wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:54 pm y'all need to own and shoot 1911s, this glock/cz/ruger/whatever other inferior model nonsense is, well, nonsense.
There is no reasonable vote to be cast for this president unless you earn more than $400,000.
CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
Re: Biden calls for gun ban
42Look it's your vote and your conscience. As I said this is The Liberal Gun Club. If you read anything I've written you'd refrain from boiling down my objections to a single issue, it's not. Voting is also a judgement call and you can't make mine nor can I make yours. That is a pretty liberal concept too. I've been a member here many years, not as long as some, but long enough. Please refrain from framing my judgement call through your perspective, it's prejudiced to do so.cooper wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:06 pmAgreed, this is not The Democratic Gun Club. Others might argue for that, not me.sikacz wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:03 pm There's no purity issued involved when the only thing one agree with a candidate on is, they are not trump and the letter D. None of the above is not a candidate, perhaps the party's involved should actually try to build a bigger tent and select better candidates. The issue is not my lack of desire to vote reprehensible candidates like biden and harris, but the political establishments and their backers desire to push their self serving agenda over the welfare and needs of the people. It's not served by the lesser of two evils, it ends up exactly where we are, a choice between two corporatists. In this case they are both my "enemy" since neither is a friend. The ballot box is the expression of your conscience and values. If that is an obscene concept to y'all, fine, it's not to me. I'll stand by my liberal left values any day over blind obedience to a political party that has long ago left the people behind. Side note, this is not The Democratic Gun Club, it is The Liberal Gun Club.
If:
- Democrats and Republicans are just two similar "corporatist" parties.
- Democrats are putting up "reprehensible candidates like biden and harris".
- Both parties are evil ("lesser of two evils").
- One values one's 2A rights and the the Democrats want to take your guns.
Then:
- Trump is a reasonable vote.
I'm only saying this is a not a sit on the sidelines kind of year. And like I said above, "none of the above" is sitting on the sidelines. Unfortunately, the way we elect our President 3rd party votes are also sitting on the sidelines. So there's two package deals sitting on the ballot this November, which one do you want sworn in?
I'm not arguing for this to be the Democratic Gun Club. I'm just stating my strong belief that this is not a "they're all the same, so it doesn't matter anyway" kind of year. If you disagree and they all look the same to you, then vote for your gun rights. Trump says he's the guy to trust on that regard.
Re: Biden calls for gun ban
43It's a possibility that Democrats could win the trifecta - WH, House and Senate. It's not guaranteed that every Democratic US Senator would vote for an assault weapons ban or that there would be 60 votes to overcome a Republican filibuster. And there are Democratic House members in purple districts who might get reelected this year, but they face reelection every two years. I'm not a single issue voter, never have been. Trump is much worse in all respects than Biden, to me there is no comparison.CDFingers wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:17 pm If the Dems keep the House, take the Senate and the WH, there is a very real possibility of an "assault" weapons ban, and a magazine size restriction. It is true that forced buybacks would not survive scrutiny.
Those of you who are shitting your pants in fear, let's look at California, where we have "suffered" under those exact restrictions for some time now, due to Republican Deukmejian's ban. Look at us. Look at us suffer. Yeah, right, so fuck off. Oh, my Lord, we can't buy this or that. What does it matter in the large scheme of fascism, climate, drought, interrupted supply chains, fires, hurricanes, mis- dis- and pissed information? This is small potatoes compared to the big things.
So, look at California and see how much schmutz these restrictions have made. I say pay attention to the big things: instill renewable energy, promote regenerative agriculture, increase infrastructure investment, and increase educational funding.
CDFingers
Britain's Daily Mail points out the irony of Kamala Harris.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... s-ban.htmlVP hopeful Kamala Harris- who says she supports defunding police - is seen in Miami being protected by dozens of cops as well as a Secret Service agent carrying an assault rifle, a weapon she's vowed to ban
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Re: Biden calls for gun ban
44+1
CDFingers
CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
Re: Biden calls for gun ban
45"assault weapons" are fine for security for the rich and powerful just not for commoners like us.
i'm retired. what's your excuse?
Re: Biden calls for gun ban
46Only for lawbreakers, eh.
CDFingers
CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
Re: Biden calls for gun ban
47Anyway, back to topic. Gun bans. I guess I don't live in fear of them. It's just another issue being used to carve the USA up into bite sized pieces that Putin can chew on. I don't know if LGC has made Putin's radar yet, but if so he's watching us tear into one another and saying "excellent" in his best Montgomery Burns voice.
Could a truly draconian and unconstitutional gun ban happen sometime? Maybe sometime in the future, maybe, I doubt it though. What I see as an effing absolute certainty is a bunch of other appalling shit happening soon that rips down the rule of law. Oh wait, it's already happening, and our military styled semi auto rifles and high capacity magazines didn't save us from it. We still gotta do boring crap like complain to elected officials, protest (peacefully), and vote.
Could a truly draconian and unconstitutional gun ban happen sometime? Maybe sometime in the future, maybe, I doubt it though. What I see as an effing absolute certainty is a bunch of other appalling shit happening soon that rips down the rule of law. Oh wait, it's already happening, and our military styled semi auto rifles and high capacity magazines didn't save us from it. We still gotta do boring crap like complain to elected officials, protest (peacefully), and vote.
Re: Biden calls for gun ban
48I usually stay out of 2A discussions here because I find a lot of the argumentation frankly infantile, but I agree with CDFingers here 100%.CDFingers wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:17 pm If the Dems keep the House, take the Senate and the WH, there is a very real possibility of an "assault" weapons ban, and a magazine size restriction. It is true that forced buybacks would not survive scrutiny.
Those of you who are shitting your pants in fear, let's look at California, where we have "suffered" under those exact restrictions for some time now, due to Republican Deukmejian's ban. Look at us. Look at us suffer. Yeah, right, so fuck off. Oh, my Lord, we can't buy this or that. What does it matter in the large scheme of fascism, climate, drought, interrupted supply chains, fires, hurricanes, mis- dis- and pissed information? This is small potatoes compared to the big things.
So, look at California and see how much schmutz these restrictions have made. I say pay attention to the big things: instill renewable energy, promote regenerative agriculture, increase infrastructure investment, and increase educational funding.
CDFingers
"To initiate a war of aggression...is the supreme international crime" - Nuremberg prosecutor Robert Jackson, 1946
Re: Biden calls for gun ban
49Like they did on 08. I suspect that should the dems do it again, the results will be the same.
Herding cats.
Subliterate Buffooery of the right...
Literate Ignorance of the left...
We Are So Screwed
Literate Ignorance of the left...
We Are So Screwed
Re: Biden calls for gun ban
50Right now, I don't think Biden's going to pick up one single vote by calling for the AWB. This is not 2016 or 2018. This is Covid, Wildfire, and Hurricane 2020 America--with POC buying guns it's out of step.
It's the pandemic (and the economic damage it's done), the fires, and the storms and Republicans' refusal to do ANYTHING to even ameliorate their catastrophic damage.
He needs to focus on support from POC, especially the Latino and Asian communities...play on THEIR fears of the Trump racism against Brown people--which has been fully on display since August 2015, and now Asian people. And how POC are not only hit far worse from Covid, but how Trump doesn't give a flying fuck about them, doesn't care how they suffer and die.
It's the pandemic (and the economic damage it's done), the fires, and the storms and Republicans' refusal to do ANYTHING to even ameliorate their catastrophic damage.
He needs to focus on support from POC, especially the Latino and Asian communities...play on THEIR fears of the Trump racism against Brown people--which has been fully on display since August 2015, and now Asian people. And how POC are not only hit far worse from Covid, but how Trump doesn't give a flying fuck about them, doesn't care how they suffer and die.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."