From earlier this month.
VanDerStok v. Garland
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/firear ... 1662145028
There have been multiple motions and orders since then, including a request to expand the preliminary injunction, motion to transfer, and motion for clarification.
https://www.firearmspolicy.org/vanderstok
ATF 2021R-05 thread:
ATF 2021R-05: "Definition of 'Frame or Receiver' and Identification of Firearms"
Re: US Dist Court Judge in Texas enjoins ATF from enforcement of 2021R-05 against Tactical Machining
2You mean the ones where you need to drill out holes?
Rather than merely updating the terminology, ATF decided to regulate partial frames and
receivers. Under the new Final Rule, “[t]he terms ‘frame’ and ‘receiver’ shall include a partially
complete, disassembled, or nonfunctional frame or receiver, including a frame or receiver parts
kit, that is designed to or may readily be completed, assembled, restored, or otherwise converted
to function as a frame or receiver.”
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing,”
Re: US Dist Court Judge in Texas enjoins ATF from enforcement of 2021R-05 against Tactical Machining
3If you need to drill out the holes for the FCG, then the item is not a frame or receiver per GCA'68.tonguengroover wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:54 am You mean the ones where you need to drill out holes?Rather than merely updating the terminology, ATF decided to regulate partial frames and
receivers. Under the new Final Rule, “[t]he terms ‘frame’ and ‘receiver’ shall include a partially
complete, disassembled, or nonfunctional frame or receiver, including a frame or receiver parts
kit, that is designed to or may readily be completed, assembled, restored, or otherwise converted
to function as a frame or receiver.”
Re: US Dist Court Judge in Texas enjoins ATF from enforcement of 2021R-05 against Tactical Machining
4It's a sculpture.
CDFingers
CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
Re: US Dist Court Judge in Texas enjoins ATF from enforcement of 2021R-05 against Tactical Machining
5Pretty much if it stays that way or a paperweight.
Re: US Dist Court Judge in Texas enjoins ATF from enforcement of 2021R-05 against Tactical Machining
6I mailed a few metal and wood sculptures in the dim dark days nearly beyond recall.
CDFingers
CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
Re: US Dist Court Judge in Texas enjoins ATF from enforcement of 2021R-05 against Tactical Machining
7in response to Polymer80 recently getting a preliminary injunction against the rule (https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/feder ... iver-rule/), the ATF released a Public Safety Advisory appearing to show they are going to investigate in accordance with 2021R-05 anyway.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/guide ... s/download
Meanwhile, Polymer80 is back to selling frames and jigs, neither of which are firearms, on their site.
https://www.polymer80.com/pistols/frameandjig
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/guide ... s/download
Meanwhile, Polymer80 is back to selling frames and jigs, neither of which are firearms, on their site.
https://www.polymer80.com/pistols/frameandjig
Re: US Dist Court Judge in Texas enjoins ATF from enforcement of 2021R-05 against Tactical Machining
8VanDerStok v. Garland
Frame and receiver rule 2021R-05 vacated in US District Court for the Northern District of Texas ruling.
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/64 ... v-garland/
Frame and receiver rule 2021R-05 vacated in US District Court for the Northern District of Texas ruling.
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/64 ... v-garland/
sbɐɯ ʎʇıɔɐdɐɔ pɹɐpuɐʇs ɟo ןןnɟ ǝɟɐs
ɯɯ6 bdd ɹǝɥʇןɐʍ
13ʞ
"ǝuıqɹɐɔ 1ɐ4ɯ" dɯɐʇsןןoɹ --- ɯoɔos0269ǝן ʇןoɔ
"ǝuıqɹɐɔ ʇuǝɯǝɔɹoɟuǝ ʍɐן sʇןoɔ" dɯɐʇsןןoɹ --- 0269ǝן ʇןoɔ
(béɟ) 59-pɯɐ
ɯɯ6 bdd ɹǝɥʇןɐʍ
13ʞ
"ǝuıqɹɐɔ 1ɐ4ɯ" dɯɐʇsןןoɹ --- ɯoɔos0269ǝן ʇןoɔ
"ǝuıqɹɐɔ ʇuǝɯǝɔɹoɟuǝ ʍɐן sʇןoɔ" dɯɐʇsןןoɹ --- 0269ǝן ʇןoɔ
(béɟ) 59-pɯɐ
Re: US Dist Court Judge in Texas enjoins ATF from enforcement of 2021R-05 against Tactical Machining
9So is there a next step to this saga?
Re: US Dist Court Judge in Texas enjoins ATF from enforcement of 2021R-05 against Tactical Machining
10Some words from the FPC on the decision:
https://www.firearmspolicy.org/fpc_and_ ... eiver_rule
https://www.firearmspolicy.org/fpc_and_ ... eiver_rule
sbɐɯ ʎʇıɔɐdɐɔ pɹɐpuɐʇs ɟo ןןnɟ ǝɟɐs
ɯɯ6 bdd ɹǝɥʇןɐʍ
13ʞ
"ǝuıqɹɐɔ 1ɐ4ɯ" dɯɐʇsןןoɹ --- ɯoɔos0269ǝן ʇןoɔ
"ǝuıqɹɐɔ ʇuǝɯǝɔɹoɟuǝ ʍɐן sʇןoɔ" dɯɐʇsןןoɹ --- 0269ǝן ʇןoɔ
(béɟ) 59-pɯɐ
ɯɯ6 bdd ɹǝɥʇןɐʍ
13ʞ
"ǝuıqɹɐɔ 1ɐ4ɯ" dɯɐʇsןןoɹ --- ɯoɔos0269ǝן ʇןoɔ
"ǝuıqɹɐɔ ʇuǝɯǝɔɹoɟuǝ ʍɐן sʇןoɔ" dɯɐʇsןןoɹ --- 0269ǝן ʇןoɔ
(béɟ) 59-pɯɐ
Re: US Dist Court Judge in Texas enjoins ATF from enforcement of 2021R-05 against Tactical Machining
11If ATF appeals it the case goes to the 5th Circuit in New Orleans, that circuit has issued some 2A friendly decisions.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Re: US Dist Court Judge in Texas enjoins ATF from enforcement of 2021R-05 against Tactical Machining
12The 5th Circuit denied the government's attempt to stay the previous "vacatur of the two challenged portions of the Rule," granted the government's motion to stay the rest of the rule, and administratively stayed the order.
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/firear ... 1690229765
My guess is this is only marginally good.
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/firear ... 1690229765
My guess is this is only marginally good.
Re: US Dist Court Judge in Texas enjoins ATF from enforcement of 2021R-05 against Tactical Machining
13The ATF is likely correct, however, that the vacatur was overbroad. The district court analyzed the legality of only two of the numerous provisions of the Rule, which contains an explicit severability clause.
The three circuit judges: 1 a Reagan nominee; 1 a W nominee; and 1 a Trump nominee.Because the agency [ATF] has shown a strong likelihood of success on its assertion that the vacatur of the several non-challenged parts of the Rule was overbroad, we STAY the vacatur, pending appeal, as to the non-challenged provisions.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Re: US Dist Court Judge in Texas enjoins ATF from enforcement of 2021R-05 against Tactical Machining
14DOJ took VanDerStok v. Garland to SCOTUS for a stay.
https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/ ... n%20vf.pdf
https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/ ... n%20vf.pdf
Re: US Dist Court Judge in Texas enjoins ATF from enforcement of 2021R-05 against Tactical Machining
15Stayed by SCOTUS. 2021R-05 is back in effect.
sbɐɯ ʎʇıɔɐdɐɔ pɹɐpuɐʇs ɟo ןןnɟ ǝɟɐs
ɯɯ6 bdd ɹǝɥʇןɐʍ
13ʞ
"ǝuıqɹɐɔ 1ɐ4ɯ" dɯɐʇsןןoɹ --- ɯoɔos0269ǝן ʇןoɔ
"ǝuıqɹɐɔ ʇuǝɯǝɔɹoɟuǝ ʍɐן sʇןoɔ" dɯɐʇsןןoɹ --- 0269ǝן ʇןoɔ
(béɟ) 59-pɯɐ
ɯɯ6 bdd ɹǝɥʇןɐʍ
13ʞ
"ǝuıqɹɐɔ 1ɐ4ɯ" dɯɐʇsןןoɹ --- ɯoɔos0269ǝן ʇןoɔ
"ǝuıqɹɐɔ ʇuǝɯǝɔɹoɟuǝ ʍɐן sʇןoɔ" dɯɐʇsןןoɹ --- 0269ǝן ʇןoɔ
(béɟ) 59-pɯɐ
Re: US Dist Court Judge in Texas enjoins ATF from enforcement of 2021R-05 against Tactical Machining
16Alito is the SCOTUS justice who oversees the 5th Circuit and DOJ appealed to him.
https://www.supremecourt.gov/search.asp ... 23a82.htmlOrder issued by Justice Alito: Upon consideration of the application of counsel for the applicants, it is ordered that the June 30, 2023 order and July 5, 2023 final judgment of the United States District Court for the Northern District of Texas, case No. 4:22-cv-691, are hereby administratively stayed until 5 p.m. (EDT) on Friday, August 4, 2023. It is further ordered that any response to the application be filed on or before Wednesday, August 2, 2023, by 5 p.m. (EDT).
The justices are technically on summer break, but they're never really off duty. The federal government and specifically the AG is a party and SCOTUS always gives them deference no matter what political party the AG is.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Re: US Dist Court Judge in Texas enjoins ATF from enforcement of 2021R-05 against Tactical Machining
17Reuters' interpretation:
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/suprem ... -rcna97010
https://archive.is/rbcZH
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/suprem ... -rcna97010
https://archive.is/rbcZH
sbɐɯ ʎʇıɔɐdɐɔ pɹɐpuɐʇs ɟo ןןnɟ ǝɟɐs
ɯɯ6 bdd ɹǝɥʇןɐʍ
13ʞ
"ǝuıqɹɐɔ 1ɐ4ɯ" dɯɐʇsןןoɹ --- ɯoɔos0269ǝן ʇןoɔ
"ǝuıqɹɐɔ ʇuǝɯǝɔɹoɟuǝ ʍɐן sʇןoɔ" dɯɐʇsןןoɹ --- 0269ǝן ʇןoɔ
(béɟ) 59-pɯɐ
ɯɯ6 bdd ɹǝɥʇןɐʍ
13ʞ
"ǝuıqɹɐɔ 1ɐ4ɯ" dɯɐʇsןןoɹ --- ɯoɔos0269ǝן ʇןoɔ
"ǝuıqɹɐɔ ʇuǝɯǝɔɹoɟuǝ ʍɐן sʇןoɔ" dɯɐʇsןןoɹ --- 0269ǝן ʇןoɔ
(béɟ) 59-pɯɐ
Re: US Dist Court Judge in Texas enjoins ATF from enforcement of 2021R-05 against Tactical Machining
18So both sides have about a week to submit briefs and then we wait for SCOTUS to respond.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Re: US Dist Court Judge in Texas enjoins ATF from enforcement of 2021R-05 against Tactical Machining
1920 Democratic state attorneys general and the Democratic AG of D.C. signed on to an amicus brief sent to SCOTUS in support of the ATF's reinterpretation of how GCA'68 defines frame/receiver.
https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/ ... amicus.pdf
https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/ ... amicus.pdf
Re: US Dist Court Judge in Texas enjoins ATF from enforcement of 2021R-05 against Tactical Machining
20Not a surprise.
Re: US Dist Court Judge in Texas enjoins ATF from enforcement of 2021R-05 against Tactical Machining
21I personally don't like ghost guns just because there's lots of idiots out there making them and there is no quality control along with serialization, no one is/can be held liable if they blow apart and kill someone due to mis manufacturing.Notably, the Final Rule does not ban weapon parts kits or
partially complete frames or receivers. Stay App. 3-4. It merely treats them the same
as conventionally manufactured guns, “requir[ing] compliance with the
uncontroversial federal laws” that regulate the commercial sale of firearms. Stay
App. 3. The Final Rule thus allows law-abiding citizens to privately assemble guns
for personal use if they so wish.
SUMMARY OF ARGUMEN
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing,”
Re: US Dist Court Judge in Texas enjoins ATF from enforcement of 2021R-05 against Tactical Machining
22The briefs were submitted, SCOTUS has until 5 pm tomorrow 8/4/2023 to respond unless they extend their stay.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Re: US Dist Court Judge in Texas enjoins ATF from enforcement of 2021R-05 against Tactical Machining
23Fair position. You of course have the choice not to buy one. And "ghost gun" is like "assault weapon"; it's a propaganda term by the anti-2A forces (e. g. Kevin TheLyin' in California).tonguengroover wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 3:56 pmI personally don't like ghost guns just because there's lots of idiots out there making them and there is no quality control along with serialization, no one is/can be held liable if they blow apart and kill someone due to mis manufacturing.Notably, the Final Rule does not ban weapon parts kits or
partially complete frames or receivers. Stay App. 3-4. It merely treats them the same
as conventionally manufactured guns, “requir[ing] compliance with the
uncontroversial federal laws” that regulate the commercial sale of firearms. Stay
App. 3. The Final Rule thus allows law-abiding citizens to privately assemble guns
for personal use if they so wish.
SUMMARY OF ARGUMEN
However, making your own gun should never be outlawed. Again, it's the choice to do so or not that matters. There is a long American tradition of people making their own guns. If Sam Colt, Eli Remington, Oliver Winchester, Horace Smith & Dan Wesson, etc. were forbidden from making their own guns, there would be no "Liberal Gun Club". There would be no way to fight off the KKK terrorists and their ilk. There would be no way to defend one's self from a government gone wrong.
That last one, since just about everybody here is scared of another Trump presidency...EVERY LAST PERSON HERE should be for the Government not knowing where all the guns are. That means no registration. It means Constitutional/Vermont Carry. It means the ability to make your own gun if you choose to do so. Concerned about all those "Trump supporters" out there? Then we all should be for making our own.
"SF Liberal With A Gun + Free Software Advocate"
http://www.sanfranciscoliberalwithagun.com/
http://www.liberalsguncorner.com/
http://www.sanfranciscoliberalwithagun.com/
http://www.liberalsguncorner.com/
Re: US Dist Court Judge in Texas enjoins ATF from enforcement of 2021R-05 against Tactical Machining
24Well kinda, cept they were businessmen who owned companys who hired gun designers. I'm not certain there were thousands of people out there making their own guns per se.CowboyT wrote: Fri Aug 04, 2023 5:49 pm
However, making your own gun should never be outlawed. Again, it's the choice to do so or not that matters. There is a long American tradition of people making their own guns. If Sam Colt, Eli Remington, Oliver Winchester, Horace Smith & Dan Wesson, etc. were forbidden from making their own guns, there would be no "Liberal Gun Club". There would be no way to fight off the KKK terrorists and their ilk. There would be no way to defend one's self from a government gone wrong.
Come the new age where we had lathes and people had the money to buy a lathe then yes I suppose people out there do.
Personally I don't like guns made from lego's 3-D printed in some bodys garage.
https://freerangeamerican.us/oliver-win ... gunmakers/
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing,”
Re: US Dist Court Judge in Texas enjoins ATF from enforcement of 2021R-05 against Tactical Machining
25I just built a gun.tgis very afternoon. Lower was transferred through an FFL, of course, because California. I love building (assembling) guns.
I think registry's are bullshit. I'm fine with background checks, but those are largely not the guns they're looking for. Those guns were stolen.
I think registry's are bullshit. I'm fine with background checks, but those are largely not the guns they're looking for. Those guns were stolen.