Biden calls for gun ban

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Re: Biden calls for gun ban

Post by featureless »

Um, wings, this is about Biden's proposal, not Trump's asshattery. It's not about what the Senate will do, either. Biden is running for president. He wants your vote and is offering a gun ban for it.

Obama promoted his ban in 2013. The election was in 2012. He never ran on an assault weapon ban that I recall.

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Re: Biden calls for gun ban

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lurker wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:42 pm
someone needs to edjumacate joe about guns. surely there' a liberal out there somewhere who knows the difference between a clip and a magazine?
Yeah, I use clips in my revolvers and read magazines.
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Re: Biden calls for gun ban

Post by YankeeTarheel »

sig230 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:41 pm
lurker wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:42 pm
someone needs to edjumacate joe about guns. surely there' a liberal out there somewhere who knows the difference between a clip and a magazine?
Yeah, I use clips in my revolvers and read magazines.
And I used to clip pictures from magazines! :lol:
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Re: Biden calls for gun ban

Post by Jerseyite »

Biden’s stated positions on gun control are a big bag of “fuck that”. I find his proposals to be incredibly stupid and unequivocal infringements on the 2nd. That being said, I’m going to vote for him without hesitation. I won’t be thrilled about it but I won’t be reluctant either.

Simply put, campaign bluster and actual policy making are two very different things. Biden spewing BS about an AWB is one thing but actually making it come to pass is another. Obama, someone who was not a friend of gun rights by my standards, had 8 years in office and no new restrictions happened on the federal level despite his stated support.

Biden can’t do this on his own and while he might have forgotten or doesn’t care, I’m sure a few Dems whose support he would need remember the political suicide that the 1994 AWB turned out to be. Campaign promises don’t mean much once you actually get into office, I mean Trump sounded pretty goddamn sure that his wall was gonna get built when he was running the first time. Not to mention Joe will probably have bigger fish to fry like a global pandemic that’s killed over 200,000 Americans and infected millions more.

Will an Assault Weapons Ban happen? It’s certainly possible and you can’t rule it out but I don’t think it’s anywhere close to a sure thing. It’s a risk I’m comfortable taking because these things have been successfully resisted before and I’d rather have to push back on Biden’s attacks on the 2nd Amendment than another 4 years of Trump driving the country directly off of a cliff.

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Re: Biden calls for gun ban

Post by YankeeTarheel »

Jerseyite wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:16 am
Biden’s stated positions on gun control are a big bag of “fuck that”. I find his proposals to be incredibly stupid and unequivocal infringements on the 2nd. That being said, I’m going to vote for him without hesitation. I won’t be thrilled about it but I won’t be reluctant either.

Simply put, campaign bluster and actual policy making are two very different things. Biden spewing BS about an AWB is one thing but actually making it come to pass is another. Obama, someone who was not a friend of gun rights by my standards, had 8 years in office and no new restrictions happened on the federal level despite his stated support.

Biden can’t do this on his own and while he might have forgotten or doesn’t care, I’m sure a few Dems whose support he would need remember the political suicide that the 1994 AWB turned out to be. Campaign promises don’t mean much once you actually get into office, I mean Trump sounded pretty goddamn sure that his wall was gonna get built when he was running the first time. Not to mention Joe will probably have bigger fish to fry like a global pandemic that’s killed over 200,000 Americans and infected millions more.

Will an Assault Weapons Ban happen? It’s certainly possible and you can’t rule it out but I don’t think it’s anywhere close to a sure thing. It’s a risk I’m comfortable taking because these things have been successfully resisted before and I’d rather have to push back on Biden’s attacks on the 2nd Amendment than another 4 years of Trump driving the country directly off of a cliff.
Here in NJ, we already HAVE the essential AWB. Yet it doesn't prevent us from owning ARs and AKs, and other semi-auto rifles. Yeah, the HCM change from 15 to 10 sucks, but may get, finally, overturned. And the rule that rifles cannot have threaded barrels but handguns can makes no sense, as does the ban on flash arrestors, but not muzzle breaks.

Still, there's no way Biden and the Democrats will ignore the laws, whereas Trump has openly stated he will and will happily confiscate our guns without due process or enabling legislation of any sort, and promised to pardon any gun-grabbers who get charged with crimes.

Meanwhile, Trump is openly planning to engage in a form of genocide if the vaccine(s) fail, blocking any attempt to stop the spread of Covid, seeking "Herd immunity" (which may not even exist for Covid) and potentially killing 2 to 6 million of us. Somehow, for me that's far more compelling than the 2A arguments.
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Re: Biden calls for gun ban

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Every Republican has promised to ban abortion since the 80s, yet it's still here. Dems are the same way with the AWB. They make stupid, empty promises that they know they can't fulfill in order to turn out the base.

The last attempt at one got 40 votes. They couldn't even break the filibuster on enhanced background checks. Manchin opposes ending the filibuster, and so do several other Dems in the Senate, meaning you'd need to have a wave election to even hope to pass legislation by simple majority.

Doesn't matter what Joe will sign, or what he promises. The AWB is a non-starter. Ain't. Gonna. Happen.

Kids in cages are happening now. ICE is sterilizing migrant women by force, last I saw. A quarter million people will be dead of Covid by Election Day. It will get worse if Trump stays in office, and guns won't save any of us if they start SWATing liberals, Democrat or not. Get some perspective.

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Re: Biden calls for gun ban

Post by highdesert »

Jerseyite wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:16 am
Biden can’t do this on his own and while he might have forgotten or doesn’t care, I’m sure a few Dems whose support he would need remember the political suicide that the 1994 AWB turned out to be. Campaign promises don’t mean much once you actually get into office, I mean Trump sounded pretty goddamn sure that his wall was gonna get built when he was running the first time. Not to mention Joe will probably have bigger fish to fry like a global pandemic that’s killed over 200,000 Americans and infected millions more.
Yup, Trump's Wall isn't a reality and he's been flogging that dead horse for four years and members of his own party in Congress haven't supported him on that issue. Dianne Feinstein will be out beating the drums for another AWB, but I don't see Joe Manchin (WV), Jon Tester (MT), Krysten Sinema (AZ), Bob Casey (PA) and other Democratic senators in purple states lining up to vote for it. Politicians of all parties want to get reelected and they and their aides are good at smelling out losing issues.

I don't care what motivates people to vote for Biden, against the alternative of not voting or voting third party. In some non-swing states it's not as critical, CA will go blue and OK will go red. The critical states at this time are: Arizona, Florida, North Carolina, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

The unknown factor always is an idiot with an AW commits a mass shooting and the media pumps up emotions.
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Re: Biden calls for gun ban

Post by Buck13 »

Jerseyite wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:16 am
Biden can’t do this on his own and while he might have forgotten or doesn’t care, I’m sure a few Dems whose support he would need remember the political suicide that the 1994 AWB turned out to be.
That seemed to be the case until 2012. Sandy Hook was in December. Had it been in September, I'm slightly uncertain the elections would have gone the same way. Probably Obama would have won, still, since only FL and PA seem close enough to flip, but *maybe* if the Rs had gone full-on pouring money into the upper midwest?

Ever since then, the craziness of shooting events has been in the press so much that the Ds can't resist touching that hot stove. They have a death grip on the idea that "gun owners support common-sense gun safety, too!" and can't believe that a sizable little chunk of the electorate really doesn't want CA/NY type gun laws (which is where a lot of us see this going, eventually), even if they're moderate or liberal on other issues, because, of course, it's hard to find anyone like that in most blue cities, particularly if you don't *want* to find them.

And remember Obama only had a cooperative Congress for his first two years. Had a Sandy Hook or Las Vegas event happened in 2009, I think we'd have seen gun control measures passed before the 2010 elections.

A few Ds in the Senate doubtless would benefit from STFU about guns, like Jon Tester and (please, Chaos, let him win) Steve Bullock, and independent candidate Al Gross. While those guys wouldn't be likely to toe the party line on gun votes, if the national party is too flagrantly pro-gun control, they won't get elected or re-elected. The national Ds aren't willing to play a long enough game to STFU until they have a true choke-hold on Washington, unfortunately.

Agree with pretty much everything else in your post.

edit: I realize I'm talking around/past your "a few Dems," or recognizing them in the case of Tester, et al. But I'm afraid the national Ds are going to sink those guys.
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Re: Biden calls for gun ban

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Buck13 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:19 am
Jerseyite wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:16 am
Biden can’t do this on his own and while he might have forgotten or doesn’t care, I’m sure a few Dems whose support he would need remember the political suicide that the 1994 AWB turned out to be.
That seemed to be the case until 2012. Sandy Hook was in December. Had it been in September, I'm slightly uncertain the elections would have gone the same way. Probably Obama would have won, still, since only FL and PA seem close enough to flip, but *maybe* if the Rs had gone full-on pouring money into the upper midwest?

Ever since then, the craziness of shooting events has been in the press so much that the Ds can't resist touching that hot stove. They have a death grip on the idea that "gun owners support common-sense gun safety, too!" and can't believe that a sizable little chunk of the electorate really doesn't want CA/NY type gun laws (which is where a lot of us see this going, eventually), even if they're moderate or liberal on other issues, because, of course, it's hard to find anyone like that in most blue cities, particularly if you don't *want* to find them.

And remember Obama only had a cooperative Congress for his first two years. Had a Sandy Hook or Las Vegas event happened in 2009, I think we'd have seen gun control measures passed before the 2010 elections.

A few Ds in the Senate doubtless would benefit from STFU about guns, like Jon Tester and (please, Chaos, let him win) Steve Bullock, and independent candidate Al Gross. While those guys wouldn't be likely to toe the party line on gun votes, if the national party is too flagrantly pro-gun control, they won't get elected or re-elected. The national Ds aren't willing to play a long enough game to STFU until they have a true choke-hold on Washington, unfortunately.

Agree with pretty much everything else in your post.

edit: I realize I'm talking around/past your "a few Dems," or recognizing them in the case of Tester, et al. But I'm afraid the national Ds are going to sink those guys.

Yup...

This was a 3rd rail issue for Democrats for a long time, until a Republican started donating lots of money to those Democratic candidates.

Bloomberg is the elephant in the room here, and he injecting that along with some of his other racist practices into the DNC, and they gladly took the cash.

Moms Demand Action and Everytown For Gun Safety now inject their Bloomberg-funded agenda into nearly every Democratic primary, making sure that if you don't tow what is suddenly the party line, you're going to get primaried.

The Democratic Party SHOULD be doing very well right now, but because of this sort of influence, they're shooting themselves in the foot. It's very likely that Hilary Clinton cost herself the 2016 election in great part because of her anti-gun stance, and here we are 4 years later with Biden doing the same thing, and doubling down on stupid.

If the Democratic Party wants to do well in any future elections, they'd do well to not try to demonize over half the country on gun-rights issues, especially during a pandemic when there is a HUGE spike in new gun ownership, because people rightfully know that they need to protect themselves.

If Biden loses, it's because of his stance on gun rights, and pretty much that alone. If he wants to court all these Republicans who are not voting for Trump, he needs to change his stance on gun control, but he can't do that, because of all the money that has been paid to him by Bloomberg, ensuring that this will be a much tougher election than it should be.

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Re: Biden calls for gun ban

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Greetings all. I will introduce myself in the "New Member intro" section soon, but after lurking on the boards for quite a while now, the civil and civic minded discourse of this thread finally pushed me over the edge to join. Thanks for keeping discussions where they need to be in order to build understanding and inclusive participation.

As far as this topic is concerned, I feel that our current administration has only increased the Democratic party's hubris. They feel they deserve to win simply because they offer someone/something that is NOT Donald Trump, so there is no need to appeal to anyone because it is already a certainty in their eyes. Clinton in 2016 and now Biden are electable because they are not Donald Trump, not because they offer anything the nation wants/needs.

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Re: Biden calls for gun ban

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TheWrongBullet wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:38 pm
Greetings all. I will introduce myself in the "New Member intro" section soon, but after lurking on the boards for quite a while now, the civil and civic minded discourse of this thread finally pushed me over the edge to join. Thanks for keeping discussions where they need to be in order to build understanding and inclusive participation.

As far as this topic is concerned, I feel that our current administration has only increased the Democratic party's hubris. They feel they deserve to win simply because they offer someone/something that is NOT Donald Trump, so there is no need to appeal to anyone because it is already a certainty in their eyes. Clinton in 2016 and now Biden are electable because they are not Donald Trump, not because they offer anything the nation wants/needs.

-wrongbullet
Welcome!

Paragraph two, pretty spot on.
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Re: Biden calls for gun ban

Post by sig230 »

TheWrongBullet wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:38 pm
Greetings all. I will introduce myself in the "New Member intro" section soon, but after lurking on the boards for quite a while now, the civil and civic minded discourse of this thread finally pushed me over the edge to join. Thanks for keeping discussions where they need to be in order to build understanding and inclusive participation.

As far as this topic is concerned, I feel that our current administration has only increased the Democratic party's hubris. They feel they deserve to win simply because they offer someone/something that is NOT Donald Trump, so there is no need to appeal to anyone because it is already a certainty in their eyes. Clinton in 2016 and now Biden are electable because they are not Donald Trump, not because they offer anything the nation wants/needs.

-wrongbullet
Welcome home. Pull up a stump and set a spell. Not being Donald Trump should certainly be counted as a major asset. But it is during the primaries that in our current system the voters get to determine who will represent them in the general election. The Democratic Party did not select Biden, those who voted in the Primaries selected Biden.
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Re: Biden calls for gun ban

Post by UnderNoPretext »

Kinda. Obama coordinating several candidates to drop out simultaneously and endorse Biden was a big help. The media pushing Biden as ‘the electable candidate’ all year long didn’t hurt either.

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Re: Biden calls for gun ban

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UnderNoPretext wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:21 am
Kinda. Obama coordinating several candidates to drop out simultaneously and endorse Biden was a big help. The media pushing Biden as ‘the electable candidate’ all year long didn’t hurt either.
That is how it was orchestrated. Timing.
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Re: Biden calls for gun ban

Post by wings »

Nobody forced primary voters to choose Biden over Bernie. Many of us went with dropouts anyway.

Some of us are bloody well sick of the flagrant disrespect for Democratic (not necessarily liberal) voters, particularly the black voters who put Biden over the top in South Carolina and on Super Tuesday. Without them, there isn't a party, and the Republicans run the republic into the ground. They had years to get on board the Bernie train, and they said no thank you. Why can't you respect that?

Progress is too slow for some of you. We get it. That same inertia is what's going to keep your dreaded assault weapon bans from passing the Senate. Get over it.

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Re: Biden calls for gun ban

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wings wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:06 pm
Nobody forced primary voters to choose Biden over Bernie. Many of us went with dropouts anyway.

Some of us are bloody well sick of the flagrant disrespect for Democratic (not necessarily liberal) voters, particularly the black voters who put Biden over the top in South Carolina and on Super Tuesday. Without them, there isn't a party, and the Republicans run the republic into the ground. They had years to get on board the Bernie train, and they said no thank you. Why can't you respect that?

Progress is too slow for some of you. We get it. That same inertia is what's going to keep your dreaded assault weapon bans from passing the Senate. Get over it.
Fear mongering, the same argument has been used by the right on gun control (mentioned since this is a gun forum). I owe no respect for any establishment just because of party. If they want my vote, represent all my views; universal healthcare, minimum wage to a living wage, education, support unions and so on. If you’re sick of flagrant disrespect, so am I. I’m sick of disrespect for the freedom we are supposed to have for political thought. I have not ever disrespected anyone due to their race, yet you imply it. Shame on you.
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Re: Biden calls for gun ban

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"In this grave there lies Bill Gray,
Who died defending his 'right of way'.
He was right, dead right,
As he sped along...
But he is just as dead
As if he had been dead wrong!"
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Re: Biden calls for gun ban

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The closest we've come to universal health coverage was the ACA. It's going to disappear now that RBG is dead, and if the Dems don't win across the board in November, you'll lose even that. And then Social Security starts running out of money in the next administration without a major overhaul. There will be no rise in minimum wage, no student loan forgiveness, public education will continue to get gutted, and unions will continue their decline. There is no righteousness in picking up your ball to go home.

Politics is compromise. We can go for better, or we can go for worse. You would rather let worse win than support better because it's not good enough.

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Re: Biden calls for gun ban

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I came to this thread because I wanted a better understanding of my own position on what it means to be liberal and a gun owner, particularly during this election cycle; and, I want a better understanding of the spectrum of opinions left-of-center.

One of the things that drew me to become an LGC member was the promise of being among like-minded, politically similar people -no matter their exact position on the spectrum of ideologies that define us as left-of-center liberals. We are all (I think we can agree) some shade or other of blue and no two are going to think exactly alike.

Each of us (to one degree or other) has a stake in this country, its viability, its stability, its successes, and its shortcomings and outright failures; or, at the very least, a stake in how those things affect our own individual lives. Each of us sees the myriad problems we collectively face as a community, as a nation, as an entire globe of people -whether inequity, inequality, injustice, climate catastrophe, or a pandemic run amok (to name a small fraction of the issues!), we can see and understand the dangers of these things.

And we have guns. (That's my 'best-of-both-worlds' -take that I have on being both a liberal and a gun owner.) 😉 🧐

Each of us has felt the temperature rising, politically. We've all seen gun owners on the right and the left play their part in the chaos of the past few months (and arguably longer). And we all have a stake in this election to one degree or another.

So, if you'll grant me these things, I want to ask each of you the following:
  • If you can see all the problems we all face and are capable of understanding the ramifications of leaving them unaddressed, uncorrected, where do you draw the line, politically, as gun owners?
  • At what point do you say, "I'm going to vote on a single issue and it's going to be guns this time"?
  • At what point do you aim to do the least harm to the greatest number of people -your family, your friends, your community, or your nation -while risking potentially 'taking one on the proverbial chin'?
  • Is their any merit in throwing away a vote -any vote!- that could steer us away from another 4 years of this relentlessly toxic, shameful hellscape of an administration all because one man (who could potentially be steered out of this proposed gun ban threat)?
  • Where is your line for doing the least harm?
These are the questions I ask myself and from where I'm standing right now, it would seem that the least harm would be to vote ourselves away from the looming churn, while preparing to challenge and redress the Constitutional inconsistency.
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Re: Biden calls for gun ban

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The club positions are the common ground established here.

https://theliberalgunclub.com/about-us/ ... egulation/
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Re: Biden calls for gun ban

Post by GPNM »

Outpost716 wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:41 pm
I came to this thread because I wanted a better understanding of my own position on what it means to be liberal and a gun owner, particularly during this election cycle; and, I want a better understanding of the spectrum of opinions left-of-center.

One of the things that drew me to become an LGC member was the promise of being among like-minded, politically similar people -no matter their exact position on the spectrum of ideologies that define us as left-of-center liberals. We are all (I think we can agree) some shade or other of blue and no two are going to think exactly alike.

Each of us (to one degree or other) has a stake in this country, its viability, its stability, its successes, and its shortcomings and outright failures; or, at the very least, a stake in how those things affect our own individual lives. Each of us sees the myriad problems we collectively face as a community, as a nation, as an entire globe of people -whether inequity, inequality, injustice, climate catastrophe, or a pandemic run amok (to name a small fraction of the issues!), we can see and understand the dangers of these things.

And we have guns. (That's my 'best-of-both-worlds' -take that I have on being both a liberal and a gun owner.) 😉 🧐

Each of us has felt the temperature rising, politically. We've all seen gun owners on the right and the left play their part in the chaos of the past few months (and arguably longer). And we all have a stake in this election to one degree or another.

So, if you'll grant me these things, I want to ask each of you the following:
  • If you can see all the problems we all face and are capable of understanding the ramifications of leaving them unaddressed, uncorrected, where do you draw the line, politically, as gun owners?
  • At what point do you say, "I'm going to vote on a single issue and it's going to be guns this time"?
  • At what point do you aim to do the least harm to the greatest number of people -your family, your friends, your community, or your nation -while risking potentially 'taking one on the proverbial chin'?
  • Is their any merit in throwing away a vote -any vote!- that could steer us away from another 4 years of this relentlessly toxic, shameful hellscape of an administration all because one man (who could potentially be steered out of this proposed gun ban threat)?
  • Where is your line for doing the least harm?
These are the questions I ask myself and from where I'm standing right now, it would seem that the least harm would be to vote ourselves away from the looming churn, while preparing to challenge and redress the Constitutional inconsistency.
I think being a single issue voter is a close-minded, and an excuse to not have to look at the big picture and think holistically. I believe 2nd Amendment guarantees us (individuals) the right to bear arms and I think it's an important part of our national character but looking at the balance I don't see how you can call yourself a liberal and vote for Trump instead of Biden just based on guns. If that's what you're doing, then you're basically saying that the 2nd amendment is more important to you than literally everything else you believe, which is wild.

I agree that the mainstream stance on gun control by the Democratic party is idiotic, and not based on fact. Just look how the MA ban specifically excludes the Ruger Mini 14. Wood = good in the eyes of policymakers apparently. Part of why I joined this club is that I like the viewpoints outlined on the site. Gun violence is a problem, but it's a symptom and not the root disease. The Democratic plan is like cutting off your foot because you have gout. It's not solving the root problem. It's based on a lack of understanding, and a lack of a desire to understand. There is an arrogance in deciding that it's a simple problem with a simple solution when (like basically all our world's problems) it's a complex and interconnected issue. I self-identify as liberal, but I'll admit there's a lot of US democrats who look down on anyone who disagrees with them as being uninformed, while also not bothering to look into things themselves. Across the board in the US there's a tendency to turn away from complexity and treat really nuanced issues as simple because it's easier to chant than to debate.

Despite all that I'll be voting for Biden in a couple weeks (gotta vote early to avoid covid) because, even with guns on the balance, there's no way I could support Trump and the libertarians and greens both have platforms I find absurd. I understand that everyone has their line in the sand that they won't cross, but I think choosing an "assault weapon" ban as the line is narrow-minded.

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Re: Biden calls for gun ban

Post by lurker »

personally, for me, it was the realization that if i vote one way i'll almost certainly get to vote again in 2022, 2024,... but if i vote the other way, there's a substantial probability that i may never have the opportunity to vote again.

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Re: Biden calls for gun ban

Post by sikacz »

I don’t recall reading someone was voting for trump....
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Re: Biden calls for gun ban

Post by GPNM »

To quote Neil Peart "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"

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Re: Biden calls for gun ban

Post by lurker »

sikacz wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:40 pm
I don’t recall reading someone was voting for trump....
i don't either... in this thread. in the larger context, way too many people are voting for the rotten pumpkin and depending on where you live and how they allocate electors and how you feel about corporatists and gun control and fascist racist sexist kleptocrats and and and it might matter or it might not. :love:

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