Impact of loss for firearm ownership in Virginia

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Re: Impact of loss for firearm ownership in Virginia

#76 Post by featureless » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:47 pm

My county would never dream of being a 2a sanctuary. But at least we're an immigrant sanctuary county full of sanctuary cities in a sanctuary state. :)

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Re: Impact of loss for firearm ownership in Virginia

#77 Post by K9s » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:49 pm

For some reason, the militia crowd here is very outspoken about abortion. Not sure why those groups seem to travel together.

A Threat Of Violence As Georgia Abortion Bill Awaits Signature
https://www.wabe.org/a-threat-of-violen ... signature/
Chris Hill, who heads a Georgia chapter of III%ers (Three Percenters), addresses a crowd of militia members outside the Georgia state Capitol during a March rally. Hill spoke about gun rights and government overreach, but about five minutes in, the speech turned to Georgia's newest anti-abortion measure.

“There’s been a connection between certain militias and anti-abortion violence over the years,” said Heidi Beirich of the Southern Poverty Law Center, which monitors militia activity.
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Re: Impact of loss for firearm ownership in Virginia

#78 Post by frankr » Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:19 am

I don't get why the southern baptist is all wrapped up in the abortion issue.

But governor Northam, I swear to god I actually heard him say this, he said in some cases the child would be born and placed on a table and made comfortable until the parents could decide "what to do with it"!! He was on a local "ask the governor" radio show. I think i dropped breakable stuff I was carrying. He was talking about letting the parents decide whether they wanted to kill the kid or not. It was not healthy kids, it was terminally sick, profoundly ill, underformed kind of things. But still, I was shocked. He's famous for that, and for wearing black face.

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Re: Impact of loss for firearm ownership in Virginia

#79 Post by K9s » Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:32 am

frankr wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:19 am
I don't get why the southern baptist is all wrapped up in the abortion issue.

But governor Northam, I swear to god I actually heard him say this, he said in some cases the child would be born and placed on a table and made comfortable until the parents could decide "what to do with it"!! He was on a local "ask the governor" radio show. I think i dropped breakable stuff I was carrying. He was talking about letting the parents decide whether they wanted to kill the kid or not. It was not healthy kids, it was terminally sick, profoundly ill, underformed kind of things. But still, I was shocked. He's famous for that, and for wearing black face.
Northam was an Army doctor and a pediatric neurologist. Having worked in healthcare for a long time, I can understand how a doctor might make a comment that can sound different than intended to those outside the medical community. Northam was being candid and he was lambasted in the press. When the alternative to Northam is better, please vote for that person.

Gun control was a huge issue to the VA electorate. The GOP didn't help by blocking everything. No compromise when in power means no compromise when out of power, it seems.

Poll finds Virginia voters focused on gun policy ahead of pivotal election
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/vi ... story.html
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Re: Impact of loss for firearm ownership in Virginia

#80 Post by VodoundaVinci » Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:03 am

I see it as people having to constantly make a simple issue more convoluted to get people to give up. The issue of guns is very simple - our Right to keep and bear arms is bestowed at birth and shall not be infringed.

Stop infringing - no Civil War, no threats, no strife and struggle over a simple concept. It is our Right to keep and Bear. Stop infringing. I know folks want something done about gun violence as, as a gun owner, I am all for that. Find the Root Cause of the problem and start working to fix it. Stop interjecting abortion rights, and all that into a simple concept.

Simple.

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Re: Impact of loss for firearm ownership in Virginia

#81 Post by frankr » Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:44 am

VodoundaVinci wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:03 am
I see it as people having to constantly make a simple issue more convoluted to get people to give up. The issue of guns is very simple - our Right to keep and bear arms is bestowed at birth and shall not be infringed.

Stop infringing - no Civil War, no threats, no strife and struggle over a simple concept. It is our Right to keep and Bear. Stop infringing. I know folks want something done about gun violence as, as a gun owner, I am all for that. Find the Root Cause of the problem and start working to fix it. Stop interjecting abortion rights, and all that into a simple concept.

Simple.

VooDoo
I'm on the same page. There is gun violence whose causes are not protected by the 2nd amendment. It's a long list. Fix those things, they need fixing. If we fix those things and then there is still an unacceptable level of gun violence, we can talk. But if we fix those other thing society will improve by a fair margin and there won't be much gun violence.
.
People die, are injured, sexually assaulted, and robbed as a result of people being on the drug alcohol. Alcohol is not protected by our constitution. We as a society have all got together and voted that all the death and violence is acceptable in exchange for us to have the ability to have a glass of wine with dinner or a beer with the bro's. The impact on our society is actually quite bad. No matter how many breathalizers we install in cars there will still be alcohol based crime and violence and we will say it is acceptable. If we have said we will accept that much violence so we may enjoy a recreational drug, by god we should be willing to accept a lot more violence in order to protect our own constitution.
When I point this out to people they often get all pisssy that would suggest prohibition, I'm not. I'm just saying we should value the constitution a lot more.

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Re: Impact of loss for firearm ownership in Virginia

#82 Post by max129 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:01 pm

As society moves farther away from a rural past, guns are not an automatic necessity. The same is true for many tools - teenagers used to jones for a tools set on their 16th birthday.

I have several grown children. Only one of them owns camping equipment. When I was their age, every family owned a lot of camping equipment.

That seems to be all gone. No one in the cities or suburbs needs a socket wrench set anymore. Fewer people go camping. Hunting is on the decline. So guns, which were formerly a multi-use tool are now reduced (for most folks) to self defense and sport shooting.

As a result there is less parent-to-child hand off of gun experience and knowledge. This is a long term culture shift, not a short term issue.

OK, back to the Second Amendment. They don't care. They have been given a lifetime of "guns are bad" and "only rednecks own guns" and "guns cause violence". The veracity of these messages is moot - the messages have been delivered for a lifetime and there have been very few effective counter actions to these messages.

What is needed is an effective, non-hysterical set of counter messages, delivered by rational people often.
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Re: Impact of loss for firearm ownership in Virginia

#83 Post by Tedzilla » Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:04 pm

" Louisa, Halifax, Buchanan, Rappahannock, Greensville, and Russell counties are all sanctuaries now! So is the town of Exmore! HUGE turnouts continue! 30 Sanctuaries and counting!"-VCDL

This will create a patchwork of laws and non-enforcement areas that will be nearly incomprehensible.
I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY
III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT'S BEHIND IT

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Re: Impact of loss for firearm ownership in Virginia

#84 Post by max129 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:27 pm

The interior of States will become similar to the California-Nevada border. Cross the State line and you are an instant Felon.

This is the internal fate of transition State laws that are creating your patchwork.
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Re: Impact of loss for firearm ownership in Virginia

#85 Post by highdesert » Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:46 pm

Times have changed, I think less is done as a family unit. Kids seem much more into technology and not as much into nature as when we were growing up. Though my area gets inundated on the weekends with Millennials and GenXers who are into camping, hiking, rock climbing, biking...I don't want to generalize for all those generations. Sunday and yesterday it was bumper to bumper traffic returning after the holiday. Campers, motor homes, trailers and toy boxes or trailers full of motorcycles, quads...

This survey showed an increase in hunting with firearms, hope target shooting also increased.
http://www.sportsmarketanalytics.com/bl ... nials.aspx
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Re: Impact of loss for firearm ownership in Virginia

#86 Post by K9s » Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:48 pm

max129 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:01 pm
As society moves farther away from a rural past, guns are not an automatic necessity. The same is true for many tools - teenagers used to jones for a tools set on their 16th birthday.

I have several grown children. Only one of them owns camping equipment. When I was their age, every family owned a lot of camping equipment.

That seems to be all gone. No one in the cities or suburbs needs a socket wrench set anymore. Fewer people go camping. Hunting is on the decline. So guns, which were formerly a multi-use tool are now reduced (for most folks) to self defense and sport shooting.

As a result there is less parent-to-child hand off of gun experience and knowledge. This is a long term culture shift, not a short term issue.

OK, back to the Second Amendment. They don't care. They have been given a lifetime of "guns are bad" and "only rednecks own guns" and "guns cause violence". The veracity of these messages is moot - the messages have been delivered for a lifetime and there have been very few effective counter actions to these messages.

What is needed is an effective, non-hysterical set of counter messages, delivered by rational people often.
Agree 100%. I think that the 2A will be restricted into nonexistence by the end of the century or sooner.
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Re: Impact of loss for firearm ownership in Virginia

#87 Post by max129 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:56 pm

highdesert said:

Campers, motor homes, trailers and toy boxes or trailers full of motorcycles, quads...
Exactly. I am not glorifying the camping of my youth, but it had none of the above.

A car, a tent, a cook kit and maybe a Coleman stove. That is what has generally declined. And I will not wax nostalgic about it. It was dirty and basic. You came home smelling like smoke.

My point is that these things are all related. People have "pets" now, not hunting dogs. 3rd generation suburbanites don't own guns to the degree their grandparents did. People cannot work on modern cars, so they don't own tools. Sure this is a generalization with many exceptions, but the trend lines are pretty clear.

Robert Bly wrote about the breakdown of initiations and the parent-generation to child-generation handoffs. Again not to glorify a more primitive past.

The second amendment seems irrelevant to a large portion of the population. Why would you ever want everyone to own guns? They are just for killing people you know.

We need effective counter messages.
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Re: Impact of loss for firearm ownership in Virginia

#88 Post by frankr » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:52 pm

Tedzilla wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:04 pm
" Louisa, Halifax, Buchanan, Rappahannock, Greensville, and Russell counties are all sanctuaries now! So is the town of Exmore! HUGE turnouts continue! 30 Sanctuaries and counting!"-VCDL

This will create a patchwork of laws and non-enforcement areas that will be nearly incomprehensible.
Culpeper today. And I'm sure Rappahannock last night. In rappahannock there were so many people going to the meeting it gridlocked the town. People are switched on. ALL of the people who support any of this need to be voted out if at all possible. Our state has been very 2nd Amendment friendly until this last election where it was reversed.

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Re: Impact of loss for firearm ownership in Virginia

#89 Post by VodoundaVinci » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:53 pm

We need to impress upon people that owning firearms is as much a Right worthy of being outlined in the Constitution as any other Right. These folks who want to infringe on our Right to keep and bear would scream bloody murder if we decided that peaceful protest and assembly was no longer relevant or constructive and so infringed on or chopped the 1st Amendment into bits. wat if we decide public protesting makes Nazi's angry and so we decide that people will have to resort to public media instead of gathering?

We all want something done about violence especially gun violence. But infringing on others Rights is not an acceptable means to the end. I'm tired of justifying to people why I need an AR, AK, or pistols with 17 rounds. I don't have to justify my arms to you any more than another person needs to justify that they need a gas guzzling 4X4 to drive 3 miles to work each day with only one person in the vehicle.

Somehow we need to impress upon folks who are anti gun that they need to be aware of the door they are opening and the consequences of denying people their Rights or infringing where it is forbidden. We need to impress upon folks that we need to find the root cause of gun violence and educate them that the tool does not make the crime. We need to impress upon Antis that we will not be disarmed and have our Rights violated and infringed upon because not only will that not stop gun violence but it might well increase violence.

We need to impress upon people that turning a guy like myself into a criminal by forcing me into non compliance of illegal laws will make things in America seriously hot. I have paid my taxes, paid my bills, nurtured fellow citizens and not been convicted of breaking any laws. I don't even speed....yet people want to infringe on my Rights and turn me into a criminal by forcing me to comply with unconstitutional laws yet to be enacted on the outside chance that this will solve gun crimes and gun violence?

It's just.....not going to work. I'll do my time in prison for non compliance.And then God help the fuckers that put me in jail. Now multiply that X a couple million US Gun Owners and if one does not smell smoke from a fire they need to take a deep breath.....one does not solve /prevent crimes by committing another crime. They can't solve gun crime by criminalizing non compliant citizens who have broken no laws. It's just wrong.

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Re: Impact of loss for firearm ownership in Virginia

#90 Post by wooglin » Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:59 pm

frankr wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:52 pm
Culpeper today. And I'm sure Rappahannock last night. In rappahannock there were so many people going to the meeting it gridlocked the town. People are switched on. ALL of the people who support any of this need to be voted out if at all possible. Our state has been very 2nd Amendment friendly until this last election where it was reversed.
Wouldn't it be nice if the DNC was paying attention? Win big, and then eff it up on this one single issue. Classic.

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Re: Impact of loss for firearm ownership in Virginia

#91 Post by K9s » Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:27 pm

If they could find an issue that worked better in that state, they might have gone for it. They do put some thought and money into these things.

The anti-gun thing flipped Newt Gingrich district here in GA, so it can work in wealthier neighborhoods who already have everything else they need but aren't racist.
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Re: Impact of loss for firearm ownership in Virginia

#92 Post by frankr » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:37 pm

wooglin wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:59 pm
frankr wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:52 pm
Culpeper today. And I'm sure Rappahannock last night. In rappahannock there were so many people going to the meeting it gridlocked the town. People are switched on. ALL of the people who support any of this need to be voted out if at all possible. Our state has been very 2nd Amendment friendly until this last election where it was reversed.
Wouldn't it be nice if the DNC was paying attention? Win big, and then eff it up on this one single issue. Classic.
It seems like the DNC already has it's own plans. I'm sure it isn't really appropriate to disagree with them. I think some of the democrat candidates have been made aware of this.

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Re: Impact of loss for firearm ownership in Virginia

#93 Post by VodoundaVinci » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:33 pm

https://wvva.com/2019/12/03/tazewell-co ... sanctuary/
Only standing room was available at Tazewell County's Board of Supervisors meeting Tuesday, ahead of its vote on a Second Amendment Sanctuary Resolution.

More than 30 counties across Virginia have adopted similar resolutions -- including Bland, Giles, and Buchanan. Tazewell County took that a step further, adopting two; a Sanctuary resolution, and a 'militia' resolution -- which "promotes the order of militia within Tazewell County, pursuant to the Second Amendment."

The Second Amendment Sanctuary Resolution says in part,

"...the inalienable right to keep and bear arms is a fundamental individual right that shall not be infringed, and any future enactment of laws buy the Virginia General Assembly or any other governmental body that infringes upon such right are violations of the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of Virginia."

The 'militia' resolution states,

"..be it resolved by the Tazewell County Board of Supervisors that the Board expresses its intent to vigorously uphold the Second Amendment rights of the law-abiding citizens of Tazewell County, Virginia."

Both resolutions passed unanimously. The Board also asked community members for a show of hands in support -- only one came forward in opposition.
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Re: Impact of loss for firearm ownership in Virginia

#94 Post by frankr » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:32 pm

wooglin wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:59 pm
frankr wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:52 pm
Culpeper today. And I'm sure Rappahannock last night. In rappahannock there were so many people going to the meeting it gridlocked the town. People are switched on. ALL of the people who support any of this need to be voted out if at all possible. Our state has been very 2nd Amendment friendly until this last election where it was reversed.
Wouldn't it be nice if the DNC was paying attention? Win big, and then eff it up on this one single issue. Classic.
Over and over and over and over again I hear moderate republicans say the republican politicians need to shut the fuck up about abortion. And over and over and over I hear moderate democrats say the democrat politicians need to shut the fuck up about 2nd amendment restrictions.
Seriously. 30 people could sit down at a table and work this out inside of a few hours. It would help the maximum number of people, not violate rights, and only the extremists would be furious. The politicians do not represent us. Or at least, they don't represent me.

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Re: Impact of loss for firearm ownership in Virginia

#95 Post by K9s » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:06 pm

Well, considering even more states are moving to completely ban abortion, the GOP has no room to complain about extremism.
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Re: Impact of loss for firearm ownership in Virginia

#96 Post by DispositionMatrix » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:09 pm

frankr wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:32 pm
Seriously. 30 people could sit down at a table and work this out inside of a few hours. It would help the maximum number of people, not violate rights, and only the extremists would be furious.
Can you provide an example of what that might look like? What would constitute helping?

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Re: Impact of loss for firearm ownership in Virginia

#97 Post by max129 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:45 pm

frankr said:

Seriously. 30 people could sit down at a table and work this out inside of a few hours.
In my opinion (that no one asked for :-) it really is pretty simple to decide how to do universal background checks.

I do not think there is a simple answer to the question: "Should I be able to sell/give a gun to someone else without informing the State?"

To some people, a requirement to inform the State is very reasonable; to others, it is a clear red line. Even among 2A advocates.

So I think that an agreement on more extensive background checks could be agreed upon, and definitions for due process for red-flag laws for example.

I do not think questions about in-family gun transfers, 100% registration of all firearms, ammo purchases, magazine capacity, etc. could be easily agreed in hours, days or months. My observation is that people on this forum do not agree on these issues and yet we are mostly aligned in many ways.
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Re: Impact of loss for firearm ownership in Virginia

#98 Post by frankr » Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:36 pm

max129 wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:45 pm
frankr said:

Seriously. 30 people could sit down at a table and work this out inside of a few hours.
In my opinion (that no one asked for :-) it really is pretty simple to decide how to do universal background checks.

I do not think there is a simple answer to the question: "Should I be able to sell/give a gun to someone else without informing the State?"

To some people, a requirement to inform the State is very reasonable; to others, it is a clear red line. Even among 2A advocates.

So I think that an agreement on more extensive background checks could be agreed upon, and definitions for due process for red-flag laws for example.

I do not think questions about in-family gun transfers, 100% registration of all firearms, ammo purchases, magazine capacity, etc. could be easily agreed in hours, days or months. My observation is that people on this forum do not agree on these issues and yet we are mostly aligned in many ways.
I supported background checks, one gun per month, and some other reasonable gun laws until a politician told me he would only support getting a list of all gun owners, nothing else. I no longer trust any of them. i very much don't like the implication of their goals.

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Re: Impact of loss for firearm ownership in Virginia

#99 Post by VodoundaVinci » Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:15 pm

Federal law enforcement officer Ben Woods talks PRO Virginia 2nd Amendment Sanctuary county!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... e=emb_logo

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Re: Impact of loss for firearm ownership in Virginia

#100 Post by DispositionMatrix » Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:13 pm

VodoundaVinci wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:15 pm
Federal law enforcement officer Ben Woods talks PRO Virginia 2nd Amendment Sanctuary county!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... e=emb_logo

VooDoo
Here is what the new narrative about the 2A sanctuary trend in Virginia is going to be:
viewtopic.php?p=741808#p741808

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