Judge upholds ATF ban of 7N6 Russian ammo

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I think this story should read "AK-74" not "AK-47".

Judge Upholds ATF's Decision Banning Ammo Designed for AK-47

"The decision by U.S. District Judge John C. Coughenour in Seattle came in a lawsuit brought by a Redmond-based arms importer, P.W. Arms Inc., which obtained ATF permits to import more than 100 million rounds of the Russian-made ammunition, known as 7N6.

The company said in its lawsuit that in mid-2013 it successfully imported nearly 38 million rounds for civilian resale, but that in early 2014, the ATF halted further shipments as they arrived in Norfolk, Virginia. The agency tested the bullets to confirm they were armor-piercing and barred their importation for resale, a decision the company said cost it $3 million."

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"The company challenged the ATF's decision as arbitrary, saying officials misinterpreted the definition of armor-piercing bullets under federal law.

Coughenour disagreed. The bullets contain a steel core and can be fired from a handgun, and thus classify as armor-piercing — even if the handguns that can fire them are uncommon, Coughenour said."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/judg ... k-41286185
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Re: Judge upholds ATF ban of 7N6 Russian ammo

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Personally, I think AR and AK "pistols" are ridiculous toys designed only to circumvent SBR restrictions and serve no real purpose past their "tacticool" appeal. I'm sure if someone markets a pistol which shoots 7.62x54R the inexpensive surplus ammo will be banned as well since the Russians loved their steel core ammo. The Mosin fanboys will howl if/when that happens.
Cynistoicureanism: The world view best expressed by "I can't trust 'em any farther then I can throw 'em, There's nothing I can do about it anyway, So let's have a drink".

Re: Judge upholds ATF ban of 7N6 Russian ammo

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TheHunterOfSkulls wrote:I'd be willing to bet cashy money that this "testing" consisted of firing rifle ammo at body armor that's not rated to stop rifle ammo.
Yeah, they probably tested it using a rifle, then used the fact you can also fire it out of a "pistol" that's just a short rifle without a stock as the justification for banning it.

The whole armor piercing concept is crazy anyway, because physics doesn't care about random definitions. A 10 inch barrel AK "pistol" is not that much smaller than an a 16" AK with a folding stock. I think both would go send generic lead SP hunting ammo through most body armor.
Brian

Re: Judge upholds ATF ban of 7N6 Russian ammo

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Stiff wrote:I think an AR pistol is the ultimate home defense weapon. Short enough to be maneuverable indoors, light enough to be one-handed in a pinch, and comes with 30 rounds of ammo. It has recently evolved as a way to circumvent SBR paperwork, but it still has functional value beyond that.
I sure hope no one is in the next room when you defend you home with one.

Re: Judge upholds ATF ban of 7N6 Russian ammo

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JoelB wrote:
Stiff wrote:I think an AR pistol is the ultimate home defense weapon. Short enough to be maneuverable indoors, light enough to be one-handed in a pinch, and comes with 30 rounds of ammo. It has recently evolved as a way to circumvent SBR paperwork, but it still has functional value beyond that.
I sure hope no one is in the next room when you defend you home with one.
The difference in penetration between 9mm, 5.56mm, and 00 buck is minimal. Since an AR pistol has a shorter barrel (thus less velocity), it should punch no further than a 9mm in this video.

Glad that federal government is boring again.

Re: Judge upholds ATF ban of 7N6 Russian ammo

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CDFingers wrote:Well, if I hadn't wasted my money on guns, bullets and powder, I'd buy stock in companies that make reloading components. But I did, so I can't. :clap:

CDFingers

invest in Reloading, paper towels, toilet paper, diapers [ adult and baby ] and beer. and you will do fine ! :lol:
This is just my opinion, yours may vary and is no less valid.
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I must proof read more

Re: Judge upholds ATF ban of 7N6 Russian ammo

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I sure hope no one is in the next room when you defend you home with one.[/quote]

The difference in penetration between 9mm, 5.56mm, and 00 buck is minimal. Since an AR pistol has a shorter barrel (thus less velocity), it should punch no further than a 9mm in this video.

I can't imagine where you got that information. My last job was teaching crime lab techniques and crime scene investigation. The idea of defending your family in your home with anything other than a shotgun loaded with birdshot is insane. I saw too may innocent people wounded on the other side of plasterboard walls to consider anything else.

Re: Judge upholds ATF ban of 7N6 Russian ammo

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JoelB wrote:
The difference in penetration between 9mm, 5.56mm, and 00 buck is minimal. Since an AR pistol has a shorter barrel (thus less velocity), it should punch no further than a 9mm in this video.
I can't imagine where you got that information. My last job was teaching crime lab techniques and crime scene investigation. The idea of defending your family in your home with anything other than a shotgun loaded with birdshot is insane. I saw too may innocent people wounded on the other side of plasterboard walls to consider anything else.
I'm emphasizing the key word: difference. I wasn't saying that 9mm, .223, and 00 buck had minimal penetration, I said there wasn't much difference between them.

As for using only a shotgun loaded with birdshots, I don't subscribe to it because a shotgun is a strictly two-handed weapon. I played airsoft a lot in an indoor arena used by local SWAT teams, and I learned that a one-handed gun (pistol or PDW) was the ideal weapon indoors. A powerful but unwieldy gun (like a shotgun) does little good if I get shot first because I can't peel the corner easily, or I'm too slow in swinging the muzzle to the right direction.

I guess taking the first shot is more important to me relative to limiting penetration. I also have a habit of keeping a low stance, so my shots would have a slight upward angle, making them punch toward the ceiling and miss the people in the next room.
Glad that federal government is boring again.

Re: Judge upholds ATF ban of 7N6 Russian ammo

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Stiff wrote:
JoelB wrote:
The difference in penetration between 9mm, 5.56mm, and 00 buck is minimal. Since an AR pistol has a shorter barrel (thus less velocity), it should punch no further than a 9mm in this video.
I can't imagine where you got that information. My last job was teaching crime lab techniques and crime scene investigation. The idea of defending your family in your home with anything other than a shotgun loaded with birdshot is insane. I saw too may innocent people wounded on the other side of plasterboard walls to consider anything else.
I'm emphasizing the key word: difference. I wasn't saying that 9mm, .223, and 00 buck had minimal penetration, I said there wasn't much difference between them.

As for using only a shotgun loaded with birdshots, I don't subscribe to it because a shotgun is a strictly two-handed weapon. I played airsoft a lot in an indoor arena used by local SWAT teams, and I learned that a one-handed gun (pistol or PDW) was the ideal weapon indoors. A powerful but unwieldy gun (like a shotgun) does little good if I get shot first because I can't peel the corner easily, or I'm too slow in swinging the muzzle to the right direction.

I guess taking the first shot is more important to me relative to limiting penetration. I also have a habit of keeping a low stance, so my shots would have a slight upward angle, making them punch toward the ceiling and miss the people in the next room.
How about something like a judge? Shotgun, all be it a 410, and hand held but with 45 colt option

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This is just my opinion, yours may vary and is no less valid.
- Me -

"I will never claim to be an expert, and it has been my experience that self proclaimed experts are usually self proclaimed."
-Me-

I must proof read more

Re: Judge upholds ATF ban of 7N6 Russian ammo

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Stiff wrote:
dandad wrote: How about something like a judge? Shotgun, all be it a 410, and hand held but with 45 colt option

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I have never handled a judge, but I like the concept. Put two birdshot shells to chase bad guys away, fill the rest with 000 buck in case they persist.
My dad called that a chaser round. Bird shot to send a not interested message. The buck shot as the chaser a gentle reminder

Sent from my LGLS770 using Tapatalk
This is just my opinion, yours may vary and is no less valid.
- Me -

"I will never claim to be an expert, and it has been my experience that self proclaimed experts are usually self proclaimed."
-Me-

I must proof read more

Re: Judge upholds ATF ban of 7N6 Russian ammo

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JoelB wrote:I can't imagine where you got that information. My last job was teaching crime lab techniques and crime scene investigation. The idea of defending your family in your home with anything other than a shotgun loaded with birdshot is insane. I saw too may innocent people wounded on the other side of plasterboard walls to consider anything else.
If one is going to keep a firearm for home defense, then it has to be capable of putting a hole in a human wearing clothing and transfer enough energy to stop the threat. Any bullet capable of performing as a self-defense round is going to go through drywall by definition.

In a home invasion, nobody should be sleeping in the house - they should be rallied to a predetermined room that allows for a safe avenue to shoot if necessary.

Depending on the bullet, it looks like .223 might be safer for the neighbors than 9mm or buckshot.
http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

Re: Judge upholds ATF ban of 7N6 Russian ammo

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Stiff wrote:I think an AR pistol is the ultimate home defense weapon.
Does anyone remember a vehicle made by General Motors called the El Camino? It was a conglomeration of the front of a midsized sedan with a sort of pickup truck bed in the back. It had the modest passenger capacity of a pickup truck and the load hauling ability of a sedan. Despite the weird mismatch, it had a niche.

I see AR pistols as the El Camino of firearms. Yes, the parts exist and you can make one, but it is not an optimal design. That doesn’t make people with AR pistols the bad guys in the story. The bad actor in this drama is the mind numbingly stupid rule that allows the government to arbitrarily than a rifle round as armor piercing if it can be fired from a pistol, as if any round would not be subject to that rule.

We endured the stupidity of this rule in the 1990s when ATF banned the import of 762X 39 that had been coming in by the boatload from China. This ammunition was from the 1950s, sealed in tins, and was excellent. To top it off, it was about seven cents a round.
AndyH wrote:Any bullet capable of performing as a self-defense round is going to go through drywall by definition.
Indeed. I have no doubt that there have been cases in which sleeping children have been hit by rounds fired through walls, just as there have been children who have drowned in pools and even buckets. The outstanding question would be whether avoiding the additional marginal risk of unintentionally injuring someone by firing through a wall offsets incurring the risk of a less effective home defense method.

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