New from CA (soon to be NH)

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Re: New from CA (soon to be NH)

#26 Post by lurker » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:07 am

s not= d
:wacko:

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Re: New from CA (soon to be NH)

#27 Post by K9s » Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:32 am

Marlene wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:05 am
So, you mean uncondtrained liberty for rich people but no government to protect anyone else’s liberty from rich people?

That’s what we already have, if you’re rich enough.
Oligarchy. The same thing the GOP has been pushing for years.
The border between civilization and savagery is porous and patrolled by opportunists. Resist fascism. Vote like your democracy depends on it.

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Re: New from CA (soon to be NH)

#28 Post by robneal17 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:21 am

Marlene wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:05 am
So, you mean uncondtrained liberty for rich people but no government to protect anyone else’s liberty from rich people?

That’s what we already have, if you’re rich enough.
I 100% agree, but I don't think the nation we live in is anywhere near a right-libertarian wonderland. With significant restrictions in the supply chain of nearly every major market (Healthcare is the biggest one!), past the point of quality control, and into the point of keeping prices high for the corporate overlords, I would consider the US to be more similar to The Third Reich in terms of government control of industry, rather than letting the market regulate most of itself within reason. The Third Reich rabidly supported private enterprise with the Gov at the helm.

Like I said; far right in theory, center in practicality.

To me, far right libertarianism means embracing the best in people, allowing for full private ownership, and voluntary transactions under the free market to include non-for-profit and non-capitalist enterprises (co-ops and other ideas like this)
In practicality, I know these ideas have too many "ideal" situations, much like many chemistry or physics problems you learn in school (STP conditions, no air resistance, etc). I've actually argued FOR socialism and communism in philosophical discussions, but also pointed that those ideas embrace too many "ideals" and wont work in practicality. All of these hardcore philosophies are great on paper, where we can say "If people just...."

Where the views come along in real life is sort of a blend between staying true to many classic conservative ideals with a twist of liberal/progressive flavoring.

I'm a firm believer in non-profit and collective ownership in a competitive free market. The free market doesn't mean straight capitalist day and night.
I'm for the market actually being free, not free in the sense where a company can dump chemicals into a lake and not be responsible, but free in the sense where ample competition keeps the big players on their feet. Quite different from our "big business writes the regs" that we have now.

I'm a firm believe that randomly cutting taxes will not yield growth, and doing so without spending cuts yields poor fiscal responsibility (A significant stray from the GOP)

I'm a firm believer that blindly throwing money at the military is throwing money down the drain and making us less safe (Another stray from GOP)

I'm a firm believer in social tolerance, (not blind acceptance) and just leaving people alone. Doesn't matter to me if someone decides to change their sex/gender, lay with a partner of their choosing, or to dye their hair a certain color. None of my business AND I will actively fight for your right to do so against socially intolerant conservatives

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Re: New from CA (soon to be NH)

#29 Post by robneal17 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:34 am

K9s wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:10 pm


This is a pretty good idea of what we see down here, but I have no idea how that fits with the OP's geography.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pos ... -to-think/

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-insid ... t-pipeline

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... far-right/
I really like these articles you've shared. I took a read of the first two and I'm reading the last one right now.

I think a few points I can bring up:
Every party has some pretty bad actors. I will not excuse them, and I wish to purge them from the libertarian ranks. I think that these people advocating for a segregated ethno-state are completely mad. It's just not what's going to happen.

Allowing a property owner to discriminate against who they rent to, sell to, etc, is a perfectly fine concept IN THEORY. In this same theory, we assume there will unlimited competition and unlimited resources to turn to once a person is discriminated against. We know in the real world this is just plain false. This is people arguing philosophical libertarian principles that work, on paper, but won't be translated to the real world. In the real world, people will collude, or one person/entity can act as a "oligarchy" for an area (say if some corporation owns all the apartments on the west side of town, then says "No hispanics allowed"). That is why in practicality I reject those notions of discrimination. Additionally, I think it's just plain immoral to discriminate against people who want to voluntary transact with you for goods and services.

I completely agree that people slide down the slope of moral, well intentioned libertarianism into some dark pit of racism and hate, who assume every person gets born on the same level. I just can't defend these people parading under these ideals, because not only does it make me look bad, it makes the whole concept of liberty look bad.


That last article is hilarious and scary at the same time. The amount of people advocating for libertarian that are state-capitalists or state-authoritarians is astounding. Additionally, how did wanting the market to have more competition, ensuring government responsibility, and keeping more of what we earn at work, turn into "Was the civil rights act an act of federal overreach?".... This is a question I've heard asked at the LNC a few times. It's just like shooting yourself in the foot. Just about makes me want to re-register and call myself a liberty democrat rather than a libertarian.

P.S. I'm originally from MA, not from down south :) I think that's where my liberal/progressive flavoring of libertarianism and my centrist view comes from.

Another point: The amount of conservatives on CalGuns whom forget that the market can convert housing from not dense to dense (aka the outskirts of SF) when allowed is insane. They completely think the government wants to "eminent domain" their properties or some wacky crap. I've basically been arguing FOR the free market against conservatives who are arguing AGAINST the free market. Consistency in beliefs? I don't think so.

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Re: New from CA (soon to be NH)

#30 Post by lurker » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:58 am

ideally, any system is ideal. duh.
in reality, not so much. again, duh.
a little cynicism goes a long way here.
your ideal system? it probably sucks.
Last edited by lurker on Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
:wacko:

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Re: New from CA (soon to be NH)

#31 Post by robneal17 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:59 am

K9s wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:33 am
Bisbee wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:30 am
Chiappa 9mm M-1 Carbine Replica. Takes Beretta 92FS mags. How is it that nobody has ever mentioned this gun on the board before?

37381ACA-2EE2-4966-BC57-D2622E787619.jpeg
Ummmm.... wow. If I hadn't just spent my allowance on a stainless pencil upper, I would be checking prices right now. I.... CANNOT... LOOK...

OK. I will just check prices. Not gonna buy it. Nope. I have self control.

:yikes:
Do it! Do it! Can you ever regret buying something so awesome in such an available caliber? I don't think so! :D

lurker wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:58 am
ideally, any system is ideal. duh.
in reality, not so much. again, duh.
a little cynicism goes a long way here.
your ideal system? it probably sucks.

Agree'd!

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Re: New from CA (soon to be NH)

#32 Post by Marlene » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:13 pm

I don’t see what makes the views you express “right” rather than left.
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Re: New from CA (soon to be NH)

#33 Post by robneal17 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:38 am

Marlene wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:13 pm
I don’t see what makes the views you express “right” rather than left.
In my Philosophical views, the thought that all property should be privately held, all exchanges should be voluntary, and that economic freedom is key.
Maybe that doesn't translate out, philosophically, to be as "right" as I may have thought.

https://infobeautiful4.s3.amazonaws.com ... ht_usa.png

I suppose looking at this chart, even my philosophical views may not even be as right as I thought.

But then again, the traditional political compass seems to get some stuff wrong, with the "square" coordinate plane. I've read and seen many explanations that reference the Nolan chart (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolan_Chart) and I think I probably relate more to that; I.E. the more libertarian you get, if you apply your views consistently, the most centrist you become.

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Re: New from CA (soon to be NH)

#34 Post by Marlene » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:49 am

In my experience, most Americans’ labels for their views are much farther right than what they actually believe.

My crazy far left views (literally as far left as anyone can get) come down to thinking that nobody should go hungry if we have enough food for everyone. The extreme right can be summed up as thinking it’s ok for some people to die of starvation so I can waste food and snack between meals. Everything else is just the details of how we think we could best get from where we are to one of those ends.

Similarly, my summary here of left and right can be extrapolated to easily arrive at my view of what the “center” is.
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Re: New from CA (soon to be NH)

#35 Post by Wisdomseeker » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:43 pm

You're right marlene. Indeed US food waste is obscene. Proud to be part of helping fix that! Many stores that used to fill dumsters w/perfectly edible food (& then LOCK them so nobody could take it), have now been enlightened, & contribute to food banks. We help collect it, then, after the food bank, the remainder we deliver to low income recipients. Finally, any leftovers feed our chickens, who make eggs, & poop fertilizer to grow more food! 😃

& since you're here, & stated you're as far left as possible, maybe you can explain why most w/your (& mine) egalitarian views think guns are a huge societal problem? I've all but given up dealing w/otherwise intelligent, like-minded folks who label me a "gun-nut!" & "ammosexual!" for trying to, from experience, gently explain that's flawed thinking.

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Re: New from CA (soon to be NH)

#36 Post by K9s » Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:40 pm

Wisdomseeker wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:43 pm
You're right marlene. Indeed US food waste is obscene. Proud to be part of helping fix that! Many stores that used to fill dumsters w/perfectly edible food (& then LOCK them so nobody could take it), have now been enlightened, & contribute to food banks. We help collect it, then, after the food bank, the remainder we deliver to low income recipients. Finally, any leftovers feed our chickens, who make eggs, & poop fertilizer to grow more food! 😃

& since you're here, & stated you're as far left as possible, maybe you can explain why most w/your (& mine) egalitarian views think guns are a huge societal problem? I've all but given up dealing w/otherwise intelligent, like-minded folks who label me a "gun-nut!" & "ammosexual!" for trying to, from experience, gently explain that's flawed thinking.
Wait... you raise chickens in Los Angeles?
The border between civilization and savagery is porous and patrolled by opportunists. Resist fascism. Vote like your democracy depends on it.

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Re: New from CA (soon to be NH)

#37 Post by Marlene » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:07 pm

Wisdomseeker wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:43 pm
You're right marlene. Indeed US food waste is obscene. Proud to be part of helping fix that! Many stores that used to fill dumsters w/perfectly edible food (& then LOCK them so nobody could take it), have now been enlightened, & contribute to food banks. We help collect it, then, after the food bank, the remainder we deliver to low income recipients. Finally, any leftovers feed our chickens, who make eggs, & poop fertilizer to grow more food! 😃

& since you're here, & stated you're as far left as possible, maybe you can explain why most w/your (& mine) egalitarian views think guns are a huge societal problem? I've all but given up dealing w/otherwise intelligent, like-minded folks who label me a "gun-nut!" & "ammosexual!" for trying to, from experience, gently explain that's flawed thinking.
I dunno, man. I haven't had that experience much with people whose views I share. I've mostly only had that experience with liberals. The experiences I have had at all like that have been driven by two things: people whose experience of urban gun violence through the crack years was on a scale that absolutely justifies a view of the gun industry as predatory monsters selling death at a profit and people who know very little about guns and gun policy but have feelings about violence and extremely negative feelings about the politics espoused by gun owners and those who claim to speak for them. If my response to seeing the many guns in the hands of this country's white supremacist resurgence in to proto-fascism wasn't a desire to arm myself, rooted in dialectical materialism, I can imagine myself responding by wanting the guns to go away and to make the people who love those guns unhappy.

The fact that owning guns doesn't make you a bad person, despite the enormous popularity of guns with bad people is a pretty subtle distinction to expect of people who aren't gun people. The situation isn't helped by the most visible people claiming to speak for gun owners being THE FUCKING WORST. The NRA has a pedophile spokesman who jokes about hunting black people from helicopters and is not scolded for it at all by the organization. I mean come on, if you don't hate most "gun people" on public display in the US, there's something seriously wrong with you.

That's why people started this club. That's why I came to this place.
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Re: New from CA (soon to be NH)

#38 Post by featureless » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:30 pm

Truth to power, Marlene. You got it.

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Re: New from CA (soon to be NH)

#39 Post by Wisdomseeker » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:18 am

Well i'll grant you they're a lotta bubba shoe size IQ gun owners, but those of us that go armed in defense of the country & our communities see a lot of capabable, responsible, gun owners, seeking to increase their knowledge of wpns & tactics to be better prepared & safer gun owners. guns aren't gonna go away, & consumer demand, not gun mfgs drives the mkt. 43 states are shall issue=>16.5 mil CCWs over 30+ yrs w/few issues. Bad things happen to good people. People are realizing that, & realizing, too, that when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. So companies are offering simpler, lighter, easier to shoot & carry wpns to the EDC crowd.
But yeah, i'll have to grudgingly rejoin the NRA soon as 2 of my private mbrshp ranges require it. But their russian caper was biblically stoopid, i'm tired of dana loesch telling me how to think & worship the russian asset in WH. & is it lil teddy nugent that you were referring to in such glowing terms? Cuz he's why i quit the first time. Google his rolling stone interview on how he dodged the draft. A truly despicable phuck.
Bottom line really is that armed, you're a citizen, disarmed, you're a subject. Be well.

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Re: New from CA (soon to be NH)

#40 Post by Wisdomseeker » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:27 am

One more thing: when you take away a Constitutionally guaranteed right, the aggrieved don't get "mad", they rise up in revolt. Recall that our country became independent of king george when they attempted to seize the arms at lexington & concord. It would be far better to convince those misguided souls who are somehow instant experts on guns & their relationship to (mostly gang) violence, the error of their ways before it comes to that again.

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Re: New from CA (soon to be NH)

#41 Post by lurker » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:28 am

you do realize that you've hijacked someone else's intro thread, right? or are the two of you one person?
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Re: New from CA (soon to be NH)

#42 Post by Marlene » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:47 am

Oh jeez, I loose track of new names without avatars. Sorry Rob. I responded to officer fife thinking he was you taking a tangent.

No surprise to anyone when a cop thinks everyplace is his place to do as he pleases.
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Re: New from CA (soon to be NH)

#43 Post by Wisdomseeker » Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:12 pm

Yeah, fine, i'll check w/you before i share any thing else ace. Admittedly, i don't have a forum etiquette guide book. Feel free to correct me whenever appropriate. & my most sincere apologies to marlene if i have offered any offense, as none was intended.

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Re: New from CA (soon to be NH)

#44 Post by Wisdomseeker » Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:18 pm

But Marlene i can't help but observing you seem to have a biased view of LEOs. If your life experience has justifiably led to that position, i can't argue, & i sadly admit a tiny % of my brothers & sisters don't live honorable lives, but i do.

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Re: New from CA (soon to be NH)

#45 Post by lurker » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:16 pm

Wisdomseeker wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:12 pm
ace.
;)
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Re: New from CA (soon to be NH)

#46 Post by Wisdomseeker » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:35 pm

".....your Excellency?"

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Re: New from CA (soon to be NH)

#47 Post by K9s » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:54 pm

Wisdomseeker wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:35 pm
".....your Excellency?"
That's better. :roflmao:
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Re: New from CA (soon to be NH)

#48 Post by Marlene » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:12 pm

Wisdomseeker wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:18 pm
But Marlene i can't help but observing you seem to have a biased view of LEOs. If your life experience has justifiably led to that position, i can't argue, & i sadly admit a tiny % of my brothers & sisters don't live honorable lives, but i do.
not doing this in someone's intro thread
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Re: New from CA (soon to be NH)

#49 Post by wooglin » Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:21 am

Dialectical materialism. Lordy.

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Re: New from CA (soon to be NH)

#50 Post by Marlene » Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:50 am

;)
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