Re: Invited to a coyote hunt and a prairiedog shoot

26
As a native and former resident of Wyoming I can state with conviction that a .223 will do the job on both critters. I used to shoot in the Red Mist event, shots of over 450 yards were not uncommon. I started with a Ruger M77 in .223 at 1-12 twist. 45 gr bullets worked best. depending on wind I was good to 300-350 yards. Prairie dogs are very skittish especially if they have been hunted a lot. Take something warm. After a couple of hunts I decided I wanted a semi. I bought an AR-15 from our friends at Colt. Thus began my special hatred for the AR platform. Like the 1911 and 10/22 it can become an endless sinkhole of money to get them to perform as well as the cheap revolver or bolt gun. I gave up and got a featherweight .243 for any future hunts back home.

When I was in school in Idaho I shot several Coyotes with a 264 Win. Mag ( closest shot was 350 yards) Coyotes are smart. needed a ghillie suit and a lot of patience. 25.00 per set of ears helped keep gas in the truck.

Biggest suggestion is to enjoy being a part of the outdoor world.

Remember to breathe correctly and not over think your shots.

Rick
Fortuna Peratus Renumerat

Liberal Condescension or Conservative Paranoia; A hell of a way to run a democracy.

Re: Invited to a coyote hunt and a prairiedog shoot

27
Rickoshay wrote:As a native and former resident of Wyoming I can state with conviction that a .223 will do the job on both critters. I used to shoot in the Red Mist event, shots of over 450 yards were not uncommon. I started with a Ruger M77 in .223 at 1-12 twist. 45 gr bullets worked best. depending on wind I was good to 300-350 yards. Prairie dogs are very skittish especially if they have been hunted a lot. Take something warm. After a couple of hunts I decided I wanted a semi. I bought an AR-15 from our friends at Colt. Thus began my special hatred for the AR platform. Like the 1911 and 10/22 it can become an endless sinkhole of money to get them to perform as well as the cheap revolver or bolt gun. I gave up and got a featherweight .243 for any future hunts back home.

When I was in school in Idaho I shot several Coyotes with a 264 Win. Mag ( closest shot was 350 yards) Coyotes are smart. needed a ghillie suit and a lot of patience. 25.00 per set of ears helped keep gas in the truck.

Biggest suggestion is to enjoy being a part of the outdoor world.

Remember to breathe correctly and not over think your shots.

Rick
Good post Rick, best one I've read today.

Re: Invited to a coyote hunt and a prairiedog shoot

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What kind of accuracy should one expect from an off the shelf bolt gun in the .22-ish caliber side of things?

I ask because both my Palmetto State Armory 16" 5.56 upper (barrel made by FN - complete upper minus BCG and charging handle was $325) and my 'Franken' AR-10 (20" .308 barrel from Anderson, on sale for $99) are both right at 1 MOA.

I'm also interested in hearing about the hunts - pelt pics?

Re: Invited to a coyote hunt and a prairiedog shoot

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AndyH wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:48 pm What kind of accuracy should one expect from an off the shelf bolt gun in the .22-ish caliber side of things?

I ask because both my Palmetto State Armory 16" 5.56 upper (barrel made by FN - complete upper minus BCG and charging handle was $325) and my 'Franken' AR-10 (20" .308 barrel from Anderson, on sale for $99) are both right at 1 MOA.

I'm also interested in hearing about the hunts - pelt pics?
What kind of groups do you get at 300-400 yds? Also what kind of terminal performance with the 5.56 at that range? For a 22 cal varmint gun I would want a 22-250 for the kind of hunting in the OP.

Re: Invited to a coyote hunt and a prairiedog shoot

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eelj wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:04 pm
AndyH wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:48 pm What kind of accuracy should one expect from an off the shelf bolt gun in the .22-ish caliber side of things?

I ask because both my Palmetto State Armory 16" 5.56 upper (barrel made by FN - complete upper minus BCG and charging handle was $325) and my 'Franken' AR-10 (20" .308 barrel from Anderson, on sale for $99) are both right at 1 MOA.

I'm also interested in hearing about the hunts - pelt pics?
What kind of groups do you get at 300-400 yds? Also what kind of terminal performance with the 5.56 at that range? For a 22 cal varmint gun I would want a 22-250 for the kind of hunting in the OP.
1 MOA is 1 MOA. 5.56 is combat effective to 500 yards but that's on a human which are a bit larger than a dog. The .308's better at distance, but it's not much of a varmint round. :lol: When I built my ARs I didn't expect to hunt past 100 yards. I had about 3" groups with the .308 at 200 with an 8# military trigger. It's shooting 168 grain Federal match 0.9 MOA at 100 with a Geissele SSA-E trigger. I'm expecting groups to shrink a bit at 200 but haven't stretched it yet.

What kind of accuracy should one expect from an off the shelf bolt gun? I've found interweb reports of people with Rem 700s getting down to 1/2 MOA after glass bedding and a super light trigger, but don't know what a 70 or 700 would do out of the box.

Re: Invited to a coyote hunt and a prairiedog shoot

33
Coyotes are pretty smart creatures and have already figured out they are far safer and have better pickin's in suburban areas where hunting isn't allowed. We have them in my "nice" suburban upscale neighborhood in NJ. They've even found them in Central Park, in NYC and have NO idea how these guys figured out how to cross the Hudson River. Did they swim (really tough as it's a LONNNNNG swim in cold, tidal current driven water) or just walk across the GW Bridge, you know, the one Chris Christie blocked up to get back at the Dem Mayor of Fort Lee for not endorsing Christie in 2013?

They are an invasive species that doesn't belong here, and are a danger to small pets like cats and little dogs, and even little children. My dogs are big enough to scare them off--canids recognize other canids big enough to be dangerous to attack.

And how many prairie dogs do you have to shoot per coyote to keep them in balance? Kill too many "dogs" and the coyotes will either starve or....migrate to greener passages.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Invited to a coyote hunt and a prairiedog shoot

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The requirements of a military round is much different than a hunting round. The thinking behind military ammo development is that when you hit an enemy and they lay there screaming medic is preferable to actually killing them.

A 5.56 for use as a dedicated varmint rd would be better served with a barrel that is very stiff and about 24"s long, preferably with a twist fast enough to stabilize long heavy bullets.

You also said that you "built your ARs" how is that any different than someone building his bolt gun by glass bedding the action and replacing the trigger?

Re: Invited to a coyote hunt and a prairiedog shoot

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eelj wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:51 am The requirements of a military round is much different than a hunting round. The thinking behind military ammo development is that when you hit an enemy and they lay there screaming medic is preferable to actually killing them.

A 5.56 for use as a dedicated varmint rd would be better served with a barrel that is very stiff and about 24"s long, preferably with a twist fast enough to stabilize long heavy bullets.

You also said that you "built your ARs" how is that any different than someone building his bolt gun by glass bedding the action and replacing the trigger?
You're right about the intent of FMJ in military service, at least according to the folks over the years that instructed me on the M16 prior to each overseas assignment. The military's using hollow-point boat tail 'match' ammo as well, though, and I'm hearing that hollow-points are used in some 9mm sidearms.

The difference between the colloquial 'building' of an AR and bedding a bolt gun is that I simply shopped for and assembled parts. I didn't bed anything or modify any parts once they arrived. I'm not even sure I'd count the trigger swap, since most hunting rifles don't have 8-10 pound military triggers out of the box.

I've not varmint hunted, and haven't shot beyond 300 yards, so I'll have to defer to those that have. I don't think a 24" barrel is necessary for a .223 or 5.56. I'll have to run numbers, but my gut's suggesting that...well, skip the gut. This from Walt Kuleck and Greg King in the AR-15 Complete Owner's Guide (p 89):
Hunting Rifle: Varmint

The Varmint Rifle may start out looking something like the long range defensive rifle, but its character is quite different. For one, sight redundancy is not only unnecessary, it is superfluous. One will not be shifting to iron sights if one's scope goes bad whilst plinking groundhogs at 300 yards. One will, as a rule, simply go home, or hike back to the pickup for the backup rifle. Yes, there are those who enjoy the challenge of the stalk. For them, reversion to iron sights might just add to the pleasure of their hunt. I would imaging them to be in the minority. thus, iron sights will be generally entirely omitted. The front sight will be supplanted by a simple gas block with no provision for sight mounting. the barrel will be of 20, 24, or even 26 inches in length, and of "bull" configuration: very, very heavy. A handguard float tube will provide a convenient place to mount a bipod without affecting the barrel and shifting the point of impact....
https://www.americanhunter.org/articles ... artridges/
The .223 Remington is to varmint hunters what the .30-06 is to big game hunters: a cartridge that can do it all, even if it isn’t the best for specific tasks.
CMP service rifle competitors shoot out to 1000 yards, throwing 80 grain hollow-point match projectiles from 20 inch barrels.
http://thecmp.org/training-tech/shootin ... d-tactics/

Very early M16s had 1:12 or 1:14 twists for the light bullets, but the common twists used today - 1:7 and 1:8 will stabilize 75-80 grain match lead. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/10019 ... -box-of-20

As for hunting game larger than groundhogs... There's not much difference between the Winchester Power-Point for deer, the Speer Gold Dot used by police around the country for 2-legged game, or the Federal tactical bonded ammo used by Feds - they're in the 62-64 grain range.
hunting.jpg
The Winchester 64 grain Power-Point will be supersonic past 500 yards. It crosses the 'magical' 1000 lb/ft of energy just pass 100 yards, but will still kill a deer or bear at 300 with good shot placement. I'll bet it'll take coyotes to 500. With a 200 yard zero, the bullet will drop 8.2 inches at 300 and 53.8 inches at 500.
http://gundata.org/ballistic-calculator/
https://www.weather.gov/epz/wxcalc_speedofsound

Re: Invited to a coyote hunt and a prairiedog shoot

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AndyH wrote:
Marlene wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:21 pm The money that gets you a solidly reliable 1” ar15 that doesn’t walk poi as it warms up gets you a 1/4” bolt gun.
What kind of money is that?
In my experience that will equal 1500.00 or better on both counts.


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Fortuna Peratus Renumerat

Liberal Condescension or Conservative Paranoia; A hell of a way to run a democracy.

Re: Invited to a coyote hunt and a prairiedog shoot

42
Thanks. $1500's a chunk of change. I've got significantly less than that in my AR-10 - and with her heavy barrel, I've yet to see a POI change after a 30 round string at 100 yards. (Not by design - by luck - I was only expecting 2 MOA or so.) It's not going to win any bench-rest tournaments, but it's got plenty of capability when 0.9 MOA is converted into 'minutes of deer' and 'minutes of pig'. :lol:

ETA...spent some time looking at the M40Ax Marine sniper rifles - they're a Rem 700 action, have modified Win model 70 'lower metal', and a 25" long barrel almost an inch in diameter. It appears it'll cost more than $3500 to acquire or build one. The barrel providers only guarantee 1/2 MOA. That doesn't sound like 'ultra precision' to me - what am I missing? ETA...hmmm...it looks like the system that replaced the M40 series has a .35 MOA requirement.

Re: Invited to a coyote hunt and a prairiedog shoot

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Hey, folks.

Please feel free to disregard my comment or, of course, disagree. I'm just expressing a point of view.

Hunting top predators like coyotes is incredibly harmful to the environment. I agree completely that they have been moving into populated areas nationwide, but the reason for this is not clear, and it's certainly not a moral failing on their part. But these animals are what is known as "keystone species", meaning that their natural population size is essential to keep the balance between herbivores and the plants they eat. Same is true of any top predator. Killing a coyote in a suburban area is not the same as going out to find one in a more natural setting. I know that groundhogs are thought by many to cause cattle to break their ankles or something, but please don't just kill them like ducks in a shooting gallery. A little due diligence into the environmental importance of your quarry is at least as important as investigating the hardware to do it with. I'm thinking about getting into hunting myself, and I'm figuring out what species in what locations are most appropriate. Deer and hogs seem a safe bet for me at the moment here in Texas.

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