Mountain Lion Hunt

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58Hawken
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Re: Mountain Lion Hunt

#26 Post by 58Hawken » Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:26 pm

YankeeTarheel wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:33 pm
But you did say
"For that price, I'd rather just hunt my lion here."
Perhaps I inferred incorrectly that you meant hunt a lion here...or there.
I can see how that could be misconstrued. I specifically said "plains game" which specifically refers to deer/elk sized herbivores there as opposed to "big game" or "dangerous game". Here "big game" generally refers to anything bigger than a rodent or furbearer. "Big game" there usually refers to the "big five" (lion, elephant, rhino, cape buffalo, leopard). I get that not everyone would be familiar with the terminology.
Your existence is absolutely NOT dependent on whether that mountain lion lived or died and I find it absurd you make that claim. Certainly mine isn't.
There I was referring generally to hunting and about taking personal responsibility for the meat one eats. As I said, I eschew supermarket meat as much as possible. We get a beef quarter from a local rancher every year. I've specifically taken my daughters to "meet the meat". I haven't had a good pork chop in I don't know how long since the boar my daughter spear hunted when she was 9 a few years ago. Here's hoping I harvest well next month. If something has to die for me to eat, I want to be responsible for it as much as possible.

When it came to the cat, it's not my existence, but certainly supportive of the tribe's management of their food supply. Sure, they can cull their predators on their own and they do. The tribe issues a bounty on them. Even if they are not killed, the act of active hunting discourages them from the area out into the surrounding territory. Sure, I could just donate money, and I do. I told my guide to keep me apprised of any fundraisers for youth programs or scholarships.

Honestly, I found it immoral of me to not take advantage of the opportunity just because I was wrestling emotionally with it. I had written off such a hunt completely until I heard so many positive things about the meat. That's why I don't hunt coyotes, even though they are even more populous and more frequently have bounties issued on them. I've never heard anything good about the meat.[/quote]
Bisbee wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:38 pm
Well written account of your hunt 58Hawken. I’ve also appreciated the tone of your replies on this thread.
Many thanks. :)
...mountain lions (a protected species here in SE AZ) nor trophy hunting in general.
IME, "protected" just means more limited quota. I.e. they'll issue 3 tags instead of 300. Or unlimited. Deer are technically, "protected" in that they aren't open season like feral hogs are in some places. On the other extreme of varmints are when bounties are issued to cull as many as possible. YMMV. The tribe has a limited quota on tags to non-tribal members, but the bounties available to tribal members for specific predators are part of the group effort taken to manage wildlife and food.
(I’ve experienced supra-real moments in my life as well).
Suprareal! Thank you. Been looking for that word.

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Re: Mountain Lion Hunt

#27 Post by 58Hawken » Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:46 pm

tonguengroover wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:16 pm
The only thing I don't about hunting predators is trophy hunting them.
"Trophy hunting" is another phrase that needs context when discussing it, IMO. I think most people's image is sawing off a head and leaving the rest to rot. IME, it means pursuing a more challenging game and leaving smaller animals to grow another couple years. It means coming home empty handed more often. It means giving away more meat to friends and relatives. In AK, it is illegal to pack out trophy parts before edible parts. They can't make you eat it, but they can require you to at least haul it. In CO, it's designated as illegal not to designate most species for human consumption. You can give it away or donate it to food banks, whatever. Actually, in CO, "possession limit" refers to what's in your freezer as well.
I used to hunt, so if the native people want them thinned out on their tribal land so be it, none of my business.
The jurisdiction is a fun quagmire. You have the tribal authority, the surrounding national forest under federal jurisdiction, and the state lands under state wildlife control. Some might say that the tribe's actions are overpopulating the deer and elk. I see it as a large scale ranching effort. Which was the same thing natives were doing with prairie management 400 years ago with bison. If the feds or the state don't like it, given that they don't do anything about liquor stores setting up on the boundaries of dry reservations, f%$@ 'em.
This reminds me of the story in AZ where the fish and game had a not so bright idea of locating Big Horn sheep in a mountain range. Trouble was there were like 40 lions there who ate half the sheep. So, F&G decided to cull 10 lions. That was a disaster IMO.
:wall: :wall:

I try to balance my own ethics with what the politicians and wildlife biologists get up to between the fight between ranchers, hunters, and environmentalists, but crepes on a pogo stick....

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Re: Mountain Lion Hunt

#28 Post by shinzen » Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:11 pm

Stay off the personal attacks. That is all.
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Re: Mountain Lion Hunt

#29 Post by SpaceRanger42 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:18 pm

self-ag·gran·dize·ment
/ˈˌself əˈɡranˌdīzmənt/
noun
the action or process of promoting oneself as being powerful or important.
"critics accused him of self-aggrandizement"
Never smile too big, the gods may mistake it for hubris.
Yes, I haz a moose. :D

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Re: Mountain Lion Hunt

#30 Post by 58Hawken » Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:42 pm

SpaceRanger42 wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:18 pm
self-ag·gran·dize·ment
/ˈˌself əˈɡranˌdīzmənt/
Just noticed your sig. Did you harvest a moose? Can't decide if they are on my list. The tags can take decades to get enough points here. They're also a lifetime "one and done" kind of deal.

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Re: Mountain Lion Hunt

#31 Post by tonguengroover » Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:59 pm

"Trophy hunting" is another phrase that needs context when discussing it, IMO. I think most people's image is sawing off a head and leaving the rest to rot. IME, it means pursuing a more challenging game and leaving smaller animals to grow another couple years. It means coming home empty handed more often. It means giving away more meat to friends and relatives. In AK, it is illegal to pack out trophy parts before edible parts. They can't make you eat it, but they can require you to at least haul it. In CO, it's designated as illegal not to designate most species for human consumption. You can give it away or donate it to food banks, whatever. Actually, in CO, "possession limit" refers to what's in your freezer as well.
I find it disconcerting that there's people out there who have never hunted and yet like guns all the while they scorn hunters. I guess to each his own. But they should remember guns were what put food on the table. And still do for many people who might not be able to afford meat. Meat is expensive. And who wants to eat hamburger all the time?
Yes of course the military/personal protection has always been a thing. But I believe the majority of gun lovers back in the day used them for hunting. I grew up wanting to get a gun and hunt with my friends and fam. Bird hunting is my fav, quail, doves and water fowl are the only animals I hunt these days and very rarely at that. Poor little cute ducks, YUM!
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Re: Mountain Lion Hunt

#32 Post by 58Hawken » Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:48 pm

tonguengroover wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:59 pm
Bird hunting is my fav, quail, doves and water fowl are the only animals I hunt these days and very rarely at that. Poor little cute ducks, YUM!
Haven't managed to harvest much in the way of birds. Was gifted some pheasants a few years ago by a friend who needed to reduce her possession limit. I asked for tail feathers and she showed up with four whole birds! I love duck though. Not that I've managed to harvest any. Among what the gods blessed me with this year is access for goose on a local farm. Silent auction at a fundraiser at my kids' high school. Season is underway and I haven't even made it out to scout with everything else. Haven't even managed to buy the waterfowl stamp for my small game tag.

Grouse is high on my list. Always find them during big game rifle season, but not earlier during their hunting season. Need to find their nesting space. Found PERFECT terrain and feed this year but nada. Will see how next year goes.

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Re: Mountain Lion Hunt

#33 Post by YankeeTarheel » Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:17 pm

Woman punches mountain lion.

Seems appropriate...

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/woman-pu ... 0f32b137c5
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Re: Mountain Lion Hunt

#34 Post by YankeeTarheel » Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:29 pm

tonguengroover wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:59 pm
And still do for many people who might not be able to afford meat. Meat is expensive. And who wants to eat hamburger all the time?
Well, that depends, doesn't it? My new Windham Hunter, after the NICS, the FFL fees, the muzzle break, the gunsmithing to make it NJ compliant, was $1500 alone. Add in ammo, gear, hunting licenses, deer tags, butchering fees, etc, it's got to be at least $2000. At $10/lb (on average) that 200 lbs of meat at a store. That's just basic arithmetic. So how much really is saved?

And now, there's some new awful disease getting into the deer that passes on to humans...and doesn't die in cooking.

Despite all this, I'm not saying people shouldn't hunt. They just should be honest about why they do it--they like it, including the killing part. I like to catch fish when I'm in the Bahamas, and eat what I catch, though I haven't spent a fortune on gear (one rod came with the house), but I see people spend thousands of dollars on special clothing, fly rods, lodge fees, guides, then fly-fish in the flats for bone fish...And they can't even keep the fish!--they have to release it (only Bahamians can actually take the bone fish and eat them--and you have to know how to prepare them). Sure, it helps several of my neighbors down there who are guides, and it's good for other neighbors who rent out houses. But it's not my thing.
"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a communist." -- Dom Hélder Câmara

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Re: Mountain Lion Hunt

#35 Post by tonguengroover » Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:46 pm

YankeeTarheel wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:29 pm
tonguengroover wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:59 pm
And still do for many people who might not be able to afford meat. Meat is expensive. And who wants to eat hamburger all the time?
Well, that depends, doesn't it? My new Windham Hunter, after the NICS, the FFL fees, the muzzle break, the gunsmithing to make it NJ compliant, was $1500 alone. Add in ammo, gear, hunting licenses, deer tags, butchering fees, etc, it's got to be at least $2000. At $10/lb (on average) that 200 lbs of meat at a store. That's just basic arithmetic. So how much really is saved?

And now, there's some new awful disease getting into the deer that passes on to humans...and doesn't die in cooking.

Despite all this, I'm not saying people shouldn't hunt. They just should be honest about why they do it--they like it, including the killing part. I like to catch fish when I'm in the Bahamas, and eat what I catch, though I haven't spent a fortune on gear (one rod came with the house), but I see people spend thousands of dollars on special clothing, fly rods, lodge fees, guides, then fly-fish in the flats for bone fish...And they can't even keep the fish!--they have to release it (only Bahamians can actually take the bone fish and eat them--and you have to know how to prepare them). Sure, it helps several of my neighbors down there who are guides, and it's good for other neighbors who rent out houses. But it's not my thing.
Yeah but jersey comparison vs montana?
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Re: Mountain Lion Hunt

#36 Post by tonguengroover » Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:51 pm

Where I live we have lions and bobcats, coyote, ringtail cats and friggin badgers. We get to keep fish or what ever we hunt. Jersey and Bahamas? Really. Kinda white elitist stuff going on there. No really, some people need to hunt to keep meat on the table.
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Re: Mountain Lion Hunt

#37 Post by tonguengroover » Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:53 pm

58Hawken wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:48 pm
tonguengroover wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:59 pm
Bird hunting is my fav, quail, doves and water fowl are the only animals I hunt these days and very rarely at that. Poor little cute ducks, YUM!
Haven't managed to harvest much in the way of birds. Was gifted some pheasants a few years ago by a friend who needed to reduce her possession limit. I asked for tail feathers and she showed up with four whole birds! I love duck though. Not that I've managed to harvest any. Among what the gods blessed me with this year is access for goose on a local farm. Silent auction at a fundraiser at my kids' high school. Season is underway and I haven't even made it out to scout with everything else. Haven't even managed to buy the waterfowl stamp for my small game tag.

Grouse is high on my list. Always find them during big game rifle season, but not earlier during their hunting season. Need to find their nesting space. Found PERFECT terrain and feed this year but nada. Will see how next year goes.
Grouse may be the most difficult to find. The population is in arrears.
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Re: Mountain Lion Hunt

#38 Post by YankeeTarheel » Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:58 pm

tonguengroover wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:46 pm
YankeeTarheel wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:29 pm
tonguengroover wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:59 pm
And still do for many people who might not be able to afford meat. Meat is expensive. And who wants to eat hamburger all the time?
Well, that depends, doesn't it? My new Windham Hunter, after the NICS, the FFL fees, the muzzle break, the gunsmithing to make it NJ compliant, was $1500 alone. Add in ammo, gear, hunting licenses, deer tags, butchering fees, etc, it's got to be at least $2000. At $10/lb (on average) that 200 lbs of meat at a store. That's just basic arithmetic. So how much really is saved?

And now, there's some new awful disease getting into the deer that passes on to humans...and doesn't die in cooking.

Despite all this, I'm not saying people shouldn't hunt. They just should be honest about why they do it--they like it, including the killing part. I like to catch fish when I'm in the Bahamas, and eat what I catch, though I haven't spent a fortune on gear (one rod came with the house), but I see people spend thousands of dollars on special clothing, fly rods, lodge fees, guides, then fly-fish in the flats for bone fish...And they can't even keep the fish!--they have to release it (only Bahamians can actually take the bone fish and eat them--and you have to know how to prepare them). Sure, it helps several of my neighbors down there who are guides, and it's good for other neighbors who rent out houses. But it's not my thing.
Yeah but jersey comparison vs montana?
Lots of people hunt in NJ. Deer, Black Bear, Wild Turkey and other game birds. I frankly don't know if anyone is hunting coyotes, which have invaded. I also don't know if they hunt beaver and raccoon.
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Re: Mountain Lion Hunt

#39 Post by offensivename » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:23 pm

YankeeTarheel wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:29 pm
tonguengroover wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:59 pm
And still do for many people who might not be able to afford meat. Meat is expensive. And who wants to eat hamburger all the time?
Well, that depends, doesn't it? My new Windham Hunter, after the NICS, the FFL fees, the muzzle break, the gunsmithing to make it NJ compliant, was $1500 alone. Add in ammo, gear, hunting licenses, deer tags, butchering fees, etc, it's got to be at least $2000. At $10/lb (on average) that 200 lbs of meat at a store. That's just basic arithmetic. So how much really is saved?

Your Windham hunter, is ridiculously overpriced for what someone needs for hunting. A Ruger American in .308 is ~$350 new. You don't need crazy optics to hunt, and this year I spent $100 on my combo hunting/fishing license + deer tag. So maybe $600 for the first time hunting. Theres also used hunting rifles out the wazoo at every LGS, family hand me downs, or borrowing rifles.

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Re: Mountain Lion Hunt

#40 Post by YankeeTarheel » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:44 pm

I'm not a hunter. I wanted I really high-quality AR-10 that had wood furniture and the Windham Hunter fits the bill. Windham makes some of the most reliable ARs on the market and their quality is unimpeachable. I've yet to see a bad review of this rifle.
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Re: Mountain Lion Hunt

#41 Post by tonguengroover » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:51 pm

offensivename wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:23 pm
YankeeTarheel wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:29 pm
tonguengroover wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:59 pm
And still do for many people who might not be able to afford meat. Meat is expensive. And who wants to eat hamburger all the time?
Well, that depends, doesn't it? My new Windham Hunter, after the NICS, the FFL fees, the muzzle break, the gunsmithing to make it NJ compliant, was $1500 alone. Add in ammo, gear, hunting licenses, deer tags, butchering fees, etc, it's got to be at least $2000. At $10/lb (on average) that 200 lbs of meat at a store. That's just basic arithmetic. So how much really is saved?

Your Windham hunter, is ridiculously overpriced for what someone needs for hunting. A Ruger American in .308 is ~$350 new. You don't need crazy optics to hunt, and this year I spent $100 on my combo hunting/fishing license + deer tag. So maybe $600 for the first time hunting. Theres also used hunting rifles out the wazoo at every LGS, family hand me downs, or borrowing rifles.
Everyone I know does not have a 1500 dollar rife to go hunting with. I have an Interarms/Zastava Mark X bolt I used to deer hunt with or an old win 30-30, that cost me practically nothing ten years ago. Shotguns are cheaper. What is NJ compliant? Sorry u live in Jersey .
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Re: Mountain Lion Hunt

#42 Post by K9s » Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:21 am

YankeeTarheel wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:44 pm
I'm not a hunter. I wanted I really high-quality AR-10 that had wood furniture and the Windham Hunter fits the bill. Windham makes some of the most reliable ARs on the market and their quality is unimpeachable. I've yet to see a bad review of this rifle.
It is a beauty, too.
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Re: Mountain Lion Hunt

#43 Post by Wino » Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:10 am

Years back, I spent a lot of time in Big Bend area. At the time there were 13 puma in BB National Park and rangers were trying to preserve them. They had actually lost a couple in a tenaja from drowning. Got an invite from friend that had secured a javelina hunt at state park Black Gap that abuts/borders BB National Park. During our orientation and assignment of camping area, the Rangers told us to shoot any puma seen OR if too far in distance to immediately come to ranger station and inform them where so they could hunt it down. Seemed a dichotomy between State and Federal aims.
Personally no problems with hunting, thinning the herd for game control, just not much into the "trophy" thing. My ex-boss kinda over did IMO - his trophy room had most every imaginable African wild animal (plus most other continents), but the one that killed it for me was the Dik-Dik - looked like he had killed his neighbors Chihuahua. I never looked at trophy hunting the same since.
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Re: Mountain Lion Hunt

#44 Post by YankeeTarheel » Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:26 am

K9s wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:21 am
YankeeTarheel wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:44 pm
I'm not a hunter. I wanted I really high-quality AR-10 that had wood furniture and the Windham Hunter fits the bill. Windham makes some of the most reliable ARs on the market and their quality is unimpeachable. I've yet to see a bad review of this rifle.
It is a beauty, too.
Thanks. It's a really nice shooter, too.

In answer to the question, NJ forbids flash arrestors and threaded barrels on rifles (but not on hand guns--go figure the logic THERE!). So the A2 had to be replaced with a muzzle break, which is compliant, and had to be both welded and pinned in place, making it impossible to undo without replacing the barrel. That was the only non-compliant component, as it has a fixed stock, and came with one 5 round magazine (I then bought 4 10-round mags).

New Jersey's rules are very similar to the old AWB rules--not sure if there is any difference.
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Re: Mountain Lion Hunt

#45 Post by 58Hawken » Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:00 am

offensivename wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:23 pm
Your Windham hunter, is ridiculously overpriced for what someone needs for hunting. A Ruger American in .308 is ~$350 new. You don't need crazy optics to hunt, and this year I spent $100 on my combo hunting/fishing license + deer tag. So maybe $600 for the first time hunting. Theres also used hunting rifles out the wazoo at every LGS, family hand me downs, or borrowing rifles.
My Winchester .30-06 I picked up at a gun show for $300 with scope 15 years ago. It is the bargain version of the Model 70 without the trap door magazine. I finally replaced the scope this year with a Nikon BDC for about $150. I realized I've taken all my big game kills with it despite having others that I bought to be "more effective". (Don't tell my wife.) I bought an SKS for hog hunting, but have done them all with a knife.

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Re: Mountain Lion Hunt

#46 Post by 58Hawken » Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:09 am

Wino wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:10 am
Personally no problems with hunting, thinning the herd for game control, just not much into the "trophy" thing. My ex-boss kinda over did IMO - his trophy room had most every imaginable African wild animal (plus most other continents), but the one that killed it for me was the Dik-Dik - looked like he had killed his neighbors Chihuahua. I never looked at trophy hunting the same since.
I don't get the point of hunting Dik-Diks. My SA guide referred to them as "Kiss my @$$ bucks", in that their butts are all you ever see of them. So, they're a more challenging game but....there's barely more meat than a rabbit, they cost as much to get mounted as a full body mount is pretty much all you can do with it. To each their own, I suppose.

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Re: Mountain Lion Hunt

#47 Post by tonguengroover » Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:13 am

58Hawken wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:00 am

I bought an SKS for hog hunting, but have done them all with a knife.
What?! You hunt hogs with a knife?!!
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Re: Mountain Lion Hunt

#48 Post by 58Hawken » Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:17 am

YankeeTarheel wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:29 pm
Add in ammo, gear, hunting licenses, deer tags, butchering fees, etc, it's got to be at least $2000. At $10/lb (on average) that 200 lbs of meat at a store. That's just basic arithmetic. So how much really is saved?
I'm a long time cheap bastard. My friends make fun of me for being able to rattle off how much a hunt cost me per pound. Some of it is cheaper, some of it is on par with "exotic" meat. Ammo comes out of the "hobby" budget and gear is ostensibly multitasking with backpacking.

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Re: Mountain Lion Hunt

#49 Post by eelj » Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:44 pm

Welcome back, since your posts under your original user name seem to be deleted I will refrain from referring to you as such. I really enjoyed your thread on recreating your ancestors plains rifle.

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Re: Mountain Lion Hunt

#50 Post by tagsoup » Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:33 pm

Great post, and well told, thanks. I saw your photo of that Tom over on I hunt Colorado.

Some very illiberal comments here at the liberal gun club.

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