Re: Experience with Project Appleseed events?

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keenanmj85 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:45 am So I will be going to one in June, but I don't shoot a 10/22, I shoot a Marlin model 60, which does not have any magazines but rather a 14 capacity feeding tube. That would give me adequate capacity, but do they require the reload? I suppose I could just top off pretty quick and easy.

And Sika, when I signed up they said both irons and glass are acceptable, and were even more encouraging of irons...I still plan on using my glass though.
What distance is the target? For me glass always takes time to get on target. I need to look into Appleseed locally.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Experience with Project Appleseed events?

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keenanmj85 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:45 am So I will be going to one in June, but I don't shoot a 10/22, I shoot a Marlin model 60, which does not have any magazines but rather a 14 capacity feeding tube. That would give me adequate capacity, but do they require the reload? I suppose I could just top off pretty quick and easy.

And Sika, when I signed up they said both irons and glass are acceptable, and were even more encouraging of irons...I still plan on using my glass though.
Somebody during my last Appleseed was using a tube mag rifle. I think magazine change is simulated by ejecting one round. You load 11, shoot 2, eject 1, then shoot the rest.
Glad that federal government is boring again.

Re: Experience with Project Appleseed events?

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Stiff wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:26 pm Here’s my consideration when it comes to bolt action vs. semi auto for Appleseed.

The target is designed for 4 MOA precision, which translates to 1 inch at 25 meters. Semi auto mass-produced or service rifles have about 2 MOA precision. A good shooter at prone unsupported position is expected to add 2 MOA, to the total of 4.

A good bolt action rifle is often capable of less than 1 MOA, so it can compensate for a less skilled shooter who only manages to keep 3 MOA. However, operating the bolt adds at least 2 seconds between shots. You also lose the sight picture when you move the head away from the scope, so you have to search for the target for every shot.

In stage 2 of the test you’ll have to fire 10 rounds to 2 targets with one reload in 55 seconds. That’s 5 seconds per shot if you only spend 5 seconds reloading. In stage 3 you’ll fire 10 rounds to 3 smaller targets with one reload in 65 seconds. You can see now why the bolt action poses a considerable challenge for the speed stages.
Yeah, it was the timed stages that brought up my question. I have been doing a lot of practicing operating the bolt without taking my eye out of the scope, so that'll help, but 10 rounds with a reload in 55 seconds? I can't reload those thin CZ mags nearly as fast as the 10/22 either. Then again, the point is getting expert instruction, not earning the patch. There's something about operating the bolt action that I really like, so getting instruction on how to be better with the CZ has a lot of appeal.

Re: Experience with Project Appleseed events?

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DavidS wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:51 pm
Stiff wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:26 pm Here’s my consideration when it comes to bolt action vs. semi auto for Appleseed.

The target is designed for 4 MOA precision, which translates to 1 inch at 25 meters. Semi auto mass-produced or service rifles have about 2 MOA precision. A good shooter at prone unsupported position is expected to add 2 MOA, to the total of 4.

A good bolt action rifle is often capable of less than 1 MOA, so it can compensate for a less skilled shooter who only manages to keep 3 MOA. However, operating the bolt adds at least 2 seconds between shots. You also lose the sight picture when you move the head away from the scope, so you have to search for the target for every shot.

In stage 2 of the test you’ll have to fire 10 rounds to 2 targets with one reload in 55 seconds. That’s 5 seconds per shot if you only spend 5 seconds reloading. In stage 3 you’ll fire 10 rounds to 3 smaller targets with one reload in 65 seconds. You can see now why the bolt action poses a considerable challenge for the speed stages.
Yeah, it was the timed stages that brought up my question. I have been doing a lot of practicing operating the bolt without taking my eye out of the scope, so that'll help, but 10 rounds with a reload in 55 seconds? I can't reload those thin CZ mags nearly as fast as the 10/22 either. Then again, the point is getting expert instruction, not earning the patch. There's something about operating the bolt action that I really like, so getting instruction on how to be better with the CZ has a lot of appeal.
Yeah, if you’re not concerned about the patch, then you’ll be happy with the instruction.
Glad that federal government is boring again.

Re: Experience with Project Appleseed events?

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keenanmj85 wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:26 am Curious what people's experiences are with Project Appleseed events? I am interested in engaging in some more formal marksmanship training and getting some actual credentials under my belt for being a competent shooter...I consider myself pretty accurate with my 22.

I'm in Montana, so I will be leaving politics at the door, but are these events legit and worthwhile? ...
I signed up for one! Quarryville, PA on April 17 and 18. A bit far from Montana, but if any LGC members care to join me, there are some spots left. It'd be nice to not have the ONLY car in the lot with a Biden/Harris sticker... :o

Re: Experience with Project Appleseed events?

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keenanmj85 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:45 am So I will be going to one in June, but I don't shoot a 10/22, I shoot a Marlin model 60, which does not have any magazines but rather a 14 capacity feeding tube. That would give me adequate capacity, but do they require the reload? I suppose I could just top off pretty quick and easy.

And Sika, when I signed up they said both irons and glass are acceptable, and were even more encouraging of irons...I still plan on using my glass though.
Getting back to this thread after shooting my event last weekend. I read a whole lot on the interweb before going and the tube fed rifle issue seems to be dependent on the Shoot Boss (their term for the lead instructor). I read one thread where the person reported he wasn't allowed to use one because of putting your hand at the muzzle to reload. Others reported no problem. Nobody had one at my event, but the Shoot Boss asked at the beginning if anyone had one so they could make a plan for the AQT, so he was definitely going to allow it. I'd write to them ahead of time and ask. I wrote to ask about ducking out for an hour for an important family Zoom gathering that got scheduled after I'd signed up for the Appleseed, and he was very accommodating. He even made sure I was paying attention to the time at the event so I didn't miss it.

Re: Experience with Project Appleseed events?

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Late to this discussion! I can wholeheartedly recommend an Appleseed event, whether you are a novice or experienced shooter. I went to my third event this past March, and seem to be going to one once per year at this rate. :)

A note about going through the program with a bolt-action gun: While it does make it slightly more challenging for the timed stuff, it absolutely can be done. One of the things the program focuses on is natural point of aim, that condition where the bullet will land when the shooter's body is at rest (and in the shooting position); In the prone position especially, you will need to find your natural point of aim anew when you cycle the bolt, unlike a semi-auto rifle. Is that a problem? Not necessarily, but if it is your first time, you're likely to get more out of the instruction being able to practice while returning to natural POI with a semi-auto vs. a bolt action.

But the events are so fun and inexpensive, why not do it again with a different rifle?

The Bench Doctor did an overview of the Appleseed program on one of his Social Distance Learning videos, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiFwkQF0q0I
"I am not a number, I am a free man!" - Number Six

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Re: Experience with Project Appleseed events?

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The instructors at the Appleseed I went to were really supportive. What they taught me about using the bolt in prone was to keep both elbows on the ground, roll the rifle clockwise with the support hand (right handed shooting) and your upper body rolls also a bit to the right while working the bolt. Then roll back left into the natural point of aim while relaxing the support hand. It's more complicated to write than it is to do.

I also learned I wasn't indexing my body to the target properly in prone. They have you at 40-45 degrees, which allows you to get your support elbow under the gun, and they want the sling very tight. Finger tingling tight.

Re: Experience with Project Appleseed events?

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DavidS wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 6:12 pm The instructors at the Appleseed I went to were really supportive. What they taught me about using the bolt in prone was to keep both elbows on the ground, roll the rifle clockwise with the support hand (right handed shooting) and your upper body rolls also a bit to the right while working the bolt. Then roll back left into the natural point of aim while relaxing the support hand. It's more complicated to write than it is to do.

I also learned I wasn't indexing my body to the target properly in prone. They have you at 40-45 degrees, which allows you to get your support elbow under the gun, and they want the sling very tight. Finger tingling tight.
That makes sense about rolling slightly to cycle the bolt, rather than getting too out of position.

I'd love to do the event with an M1 Garand. But I need a Garand first. :yes:
"I am not a number, I am a free man!" - Number Six

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