What’s wrong with a Teacup pistol grip?

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OldBrowning
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What’s wrong with a Teacup pistol grip?

Post by OldBrowning »

I’m trying to teach myself slow fire bullseye shooting with my RIA GI 1911, keeping it stock (ish) Been trying to develop a solid grip and stance, which is not easy Because Old Brownings hands are pretty arthritic & my shoulders snap crackle pop like Rice Crispies

I’m used to shooting international free rifle and shotguns that I’ve restocked to fit really well. I know that St John (Browning) designed the 1911 with perfect ergonomics’ but I end up crawling over the thing to even get my finger into the trigger guard. Frustrating, but the project must go on

I settled on a 2 handed grip where the strong hand using a typical bullseye one handed grip a la Zin

I’m using the support hand to hold the gun and my strong arm up. Thus indicating that my strong arm isn’t All that strong

So that leaves me with something that looks like the Teacup grip like you see on CSI Miami The interweb mocks this—they probably would vote for AOC before the would stoop to the Teacup. (I think they are talking about the grip where you put the pistol grip in palm of support hand and cup your fingers vertically)

Other shooters at the range are forever trying to “correct” my upright Weaverish stance. One guy tried to push my butt out and lean way forward. What he didn’t appreciate was that Old Browning had all 3 hamstring muscles removed in a sarcoma cancer surgery & I came very close to pulling us both to the ground

I’ll be using whatever grip I damn well please, but I feel that I need a justification so that I am not judged a Fool. I have justifications for a) wearing a mask b) a non isoceles stance and c) wearing a Liberal Gun Club t-shirt. But I have no justification for daring to use a teacup grip.

To build a solid defense, I feel the need to understand what’s wrong with the Teacup. Why is
It maligned by manly men everywhere?

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Re: What’s wrong with a Teacup pistol grip?

Post by rolandson »

You have absolutely no stability in control of the movement of the gun before, during, or immediately following trigger pull. You don't provide a solid brace for the cycling action to function against.
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Re: What’s wrong with a Teacup pistol grip?

Post by CDFingers »

I'll take a stab at this because I play archery as well as shoot hand guns. I have a 1911 and I shoot bullseye. I will be brief at first, then I will put you to sleep with wasted photons.

After having made any changes to the weapon (grips, sights, mag extends. etc) the shooter must adapt to the weapon. The justification for any adaptation will present at the target in group size. There can be no argument. There the holes are.

If you hang from the rafters by your toenails but get penny sized groups, I will not argue. I will say that you have some anatomical and medical conditions. rolandson is right about needing someplace for the recoil energy to go in a predictable, repeatable fashion (I'm paraphrasing--those aren't exact quotes). Moreover, the cup and saucer doesn't necessarily help that. Improvise, adapt, overcome.

Now, I also shoot revolvers where you have to cup and saucer or get your thumb flame sliced not in a good way. One drawback of cup and saucer is the hand holding the grip might come up out of the saucer. There's a way to avoid that. I see you have leg issues, but that's OK. It's center of gravity issues here that will prevent the grip from popping up out of the saucer. Lots of folks told you to lean in, but they neglected to note that your legs are fungoo (technical term). So you lean in with your body toward the target and keep the web of your thumb high so most of the energy goes along your arm instead of along an axis just above your arm. The axis just above your arm makes the gun go up and pop out of the saucer. But if you lean in while you get your thumb web way high up there, with your head well above the line of sight, then the recoil energy travels along your top of the two arm bones in your forearm, and the gun in its saucer move back, not up. Reset for the next shot is much easier.

The 1911 is designed to be shot one handed. However, it will adapt quite easily if you get your hand as high up as you can and get your head over the line of sight. The 1911 slide is a neat thing to look at. Because you can feel the line of recoil in your forearm then body, you can match it to the slide as it moves. If they're parallel, your arm moves back and carries the cup and saucer with it. If they're not parallel, the cup pops up out of the saucer and we spill tea on the Queen's Carpet. Not good. You can get some snap caps so you can practice pulling the trigger with various grip options with your thumb web at home. Very safe. I do it too.

tl;dr: if you have tight groups, no one is going to crit you no matter what.

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Re: What’s wrong with a Teacup pistol grip?

Post by senorgrand »

how about old school one-handed target stance? Perhaps off hand in the belt at the small of the back?

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Re: What’s wrong with a Teacup pistol grip?

Post by Stiff »

The modern stance was developed to give more control over the pistol for rapid shots. It’s faster and easier to return the muzzle from its climb if you have both hands enveloping the grip.

For slow fire there’s nothing wrong with the teacup, it’s still two arms supporting the weight of the pistol.

The bottom line is to find a stance that works for you and your particular limitations. The stance that works best for Jerry Miculek is not necessarily the best for you. Find a method that allows you to shoot safely and accurately, even if it’s not the latest style.
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Re: What’s wrong with a Teacup pistol grip?

Post by OldBrowning »

Excellent advice, all. Before my shoulder gave out, I was reasonably good at archery. And I do my best to keep fingers out of the way when theS&W 44 comes out.
I’ve found I shoot free rifle, archery, & the 44 mag with the lightest grip that will keep the implement in my hands when it goes off. 45 recoil isn’t too bad, but I now get the idea of needing to find a recoil force path that lets the action work coorectly

Tried some grip variations with dry firing. With my initial I had a pretty good straight back trigger pull with very little torque. Head up, arm was as straight as I could get it.

I fiddled with the teacup hand so I could lock the two hands together better to avoid the problems mentioned above. Hard to explain, but I rotated the support hand about half way toward a normal 2 hand grip. I used the strong hand pinky finger (which I never put much force on anyway) to sort of lace the two hands together and had heels of palms partially touching. Dry firing only, but seems like it should work and will not spill any tea

I did try the toenails/rafter stance. It was fine with the S&W, but I’m afraid that the 1911 won’t cycle given the pendulum effect

Will expend many dry fire rounds to refine it.

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Re: What’s wrong with a Teacup pistol grip?

Post by OldBrowning »

senorgrand wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:11 pm
how about old school one-handed target stance? Perhaps off hand in the belt at the small of the back?

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... w&usqp=CAU
That’s sort of what I’m trying to replicate. With my right shoulder the way it is, My natural point of aim is with the target on the ground between my feet. Getting “one ragged hole” groups

So I just need some support hand upforce to keep the thing in the air, but I think I should review the basic principles of the old school method

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Re: What’s wrong with a Teacup pistol grip?

Post by OldBrowning »

Stiff wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:36 pm

For slow fire there’s nothing wrong with the teacup, it’s still two arms supporting
Perfect. Now I’m armed with “I’m wearing a mask to keep from killing you, the Liberal Gun Club t-shirt belongs to my son, and I”m shooting slow fire, your doorknob; according to the experts, teacups are just fine”

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Re: What’s wrong with a Teacup pistol grip?

Post by OldBrowning »

Another question in my quest for perfection in gripping There is thoughtware on the interweb that says to “lock your wrist” on the shooting hand. I understand how to lock elbows and knees, but my wrist, at least, is missing the locking mechanism.

I’ve always just kept my wrist neutral side to side and only flexed up or down enough to have a natural point of aim with an upright head

What does locked mean to you fellow liberals?

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Re: What’s wrong with a Teacup pistol grip?

Post by SubRosa »

I always felt the important thing was putting the rounds where they are wanted.

If you can achieve that, who gives a rats ass how you hold the gun?

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Re: What’s wrong with a Teacup pistol grip?

Post by Elmo »

OldBrowning wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:30 pm
Another question in my quest for perfection in gripping There is thoughtware on the interweb that says to “lock your wrist” on the shooting hand. I understand how to lock elbows and knees, but my wrist, at least, is missing the locking mechanism.

I’ve always just kept my wrist neutral side to side and only flexed up or down enough to have a natural point of aim with an upright head

What does locked mean to you fellow liberals?
I share your befuddlement about this. I have never understood what "locked wrists" is supposed to mean.

As others have said, the high 2-handed group is for controlling recoil for faster follow-up shots. No other reason I can think of. But it is effective for that.
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Re: What’s wrong with a Teacup pistol grip?

Post by rolandson »

Elmo wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:03 am
I have never understood what "locked wrists" is supposed to mean.
I haven't heard of that technique before. I haven't a clue how it might be accomplished either.

It's been my practice, when called upon to assist someone's technique in a coaching capacity, to instruct them to fully extend their arms straight out and lock their elbows, using a two handed, thumbs on the same side, fingers of the non-dominant hand wrapped over the fingers of the dominant hand, squeezing like one is driving on ice, grip.

The purpose is multifaceted: Maintaining consistency of course, but the real issue, from my perspective as an RO, has to do with the shooter avoiding functional issues caused by a "limp wrist" interfering with the gun's ability to effectively use recoil to cycle as intended. (That the locked elbows direct the recoil into the shoulders and minimize the felt recoil is just an added benefit)

...and...

The thumbs on the same side of a semi automatic prevents the slide from taking a chunk out of a thumb that is carelessly in its path and thus eliminating the possibility of said shooter bleeding on my range.

I get testy when people bleed on my range.
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Re: What’s wrong with a Teacup pistol grip?

Post by damnitman »

Nothing is wrong with it if it works for you.

That said, human anatomy dictates that some stances grips are more effective than others. Maintaining firm control before shooting, and absorbing and the distribution the effects of recoil, with as little movement as possible, after shooting is the goal. When you add in sight alignment, breathing and trigger control, that all work together, you see why most people can't pick up a pistol and shoot like Marshal Dillon on the first try.

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Re: What’s wrong with a Teacup pistol grip?

Post by shinzen »

The modern grip is designed to help you get as much of your skin on the grip of the pistol as possible and ensure that your grip doesn't interfere with the operation of a semi-automatic action. The teacup, while it does provide at least some support, doesn't work with your musculature in order to provide better stability while aiming and mitigating recoil- when properly done and while gripping the handgun, you will find that there is less movement while aiming and during strings of fire.

You can, of course, do whatever you want, but there are real reasons that the grip recommendation has changed over the years, based on studying body mechanics. If you are unable to perform this grip type due to musculature, obviously adapting is where you need to do.

WRT weaver/isosceles, you have to do what works with your body. If you have a good instructor, they can help you figure out what will give you the most stability based on your limitations due to surgery.
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Re: What’s wrong with a Teacup pistol grip?

Post by VodoundaVinci »

rolandson wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:44 pm
You have absolutely no stability in control of the movement of the gun before, during, or immediately following trigger pull. You don't provide a solid brace for the cycling action to function against.
Thumbs Forward is a better Way - that said, my Wife insists on shooting from the Tea Cup Grip as that's what she learned 50 years ago from her Dad and she cannot break that now. She shoots fine groups and Self Defense style *but* she is the only person who ever shot my Berettas or Glocks (we have no more Glocks) and could literally get a stovepipe jam at will.

Tea Cup was fine with revolvers. Sucks rocks with autoloaders and Thumbs Forward has everything supporting the pistol and everything pointing at and bracketing the target so in rapid/panic fire you can literally just look at the threat and start banging.

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Re: What’s wrong with a Teacup pistol grip?

Post by Stiff »

WWII training for the M1911.

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Re: What’s wrong with a Teacup pistol grip?

Post by OldBrowning »

shinzen wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:46 am
The modern grip is designed to help you get as much of your skin on the grip of the pistol as possible and ensure that your grip doesn't interfere with the operation of a semi-automatic action. The teacup, while it does provide at least some support, doesn't work with your musculature in order to provide better stability while aiming and mitigating recoil- when properly done and while gripping the handgun, you will find that there is less movement while aiming and during strings of fire.

You can, of course, do whatever you want, but there are real reasons that the grip recommendation has changed over the years, based on studying body mechanics. If you are unable to perform this grip type due to musculature, obviously adapting is where you need to do.

WRT weaver/isosceles, you have to do what works with your body. If you have a good instructor, they can help you figure out what will give you the most stability based on your limitations due to surgery.
Kinda wish I could find a good instructor, but out here in rural Colorado, there’s not much bullseye activity. All I see is rapid fire at short range or CCW Never seen anybody shooting at an NRA scoring target at the range

I need to experiment with dry firing ‘cause we have a wildfire about 3 miles upwind of the outdoor range. Makes your eyes water

Ah ha! I’ve been doing the exact opposite of the modern grip. Instead of covering the gun, I’ve been limiting shooting hand contact to the frame to two fingers and the hard bits of my palm. It gives me a zero torque trigger pull. BUT I’m guessing I’m giving up some sight alignment and wobble.
It’s a holdover from my free rifle and archery days where I didnt want to “steer” the gun or bow. Just barely touch it and Zen it around a natural point of aim

I haven’t thought much about managing recoil. Hardball isn’t all that punishing, so I kinda just let the gun do the Zen thing. The 44 revolver requires a bit more attention

So my dry fire homework is to try more meat on the gun and see if I can keep a clean trigger pull and steadier sight alignment and wobble

As always, thanks for the thoughtful response

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Re: What’s wrong with a Teacup pistol grip?

Post by OldBrowning »

The WWII film was really cool. The “locked wrist, teacup grip, high web of hand on pistol, etc was pretty much what I’ve been starting from. So I’m really only 80 years out of date

Interesting about the revolver vs 1911 grip. I think that’s why the RIA 1911 felt odd at first. I put an A1 style arched mainspring housing that made it a little less odd

Off topic, but I found my dad’s WWII holster, web belt etc a while back. Just like our boys in the picture were using

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Re: What’s wrong with a Teacup pistol grip?

Post by OldBrowning »

VodoundaVinci wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:43 pm
rolandson wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:44 pm
You have absolutely no stability in control of the movement of the gun before, during, or immediately following trigger pull. You don't provide a solid brace for the cycling action to function against.
Thumbs Forward is a better Way - that said, my Wife insists on shooting from the Tea Cup Grip as that's what she learned 50 years ago from her Dad and she cannot break that now. She shoots fine groups and Self Defense style *but* she is the only person who ever shot my Berettas or Glocks (we have no more Glocks) and could literally get a stovepipe jam at will.

Tea Cup was fine with revolvers. Sucks rocks with autoloaders and Thumbs Forward has everything supporting the pistol and everything pointing at and bracketing the target so in rapid/panic fire you can literally just look at the threat and start banging.

VooDoo
I haven’t had a stovepipe in the first 500 rounds, but I can see how what I’m doing could cause one.

I did try thumbs forward for a while. I couldn’t find a compromise between trigger access , high web of hand and positively depressing the grip safety. So I ended up with lower thumbs

Just so you helpful folks know I’m taking your advice to heart, I’ve been doing 15 minutes a day doing blank wall dry firing as I experiment with Different grips

Thanks!

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Re: What’s wrong with a Teacup pistol grip?

Post by CDFingers »

OldBrowning wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:26 pm
80 years out of date
Physics never goes out of date. And two words: "front sight."

I haven't pimped my Springer 1911 thread:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=45561

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Re: What’s wrong with a Teacup pistol grip?

Post by Stiff »

OldBrowning wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:26 pm
The WWII film was really cool. The “locked wrist, teacup grip, high web of hand on pistol, etc was pretty much what I’ve been starting from. So I’m really only 80 years out of date

Interesting about the revolver vs 1911 grip. I think that’s why the RIA 1911 felt odd at first. I put an A1 style arched mainspring housing that made it a little less odd

Off topic, but I found my dad’s WWII holster, web belt etc a while back. Just like our boys in the picture were using
The more I learn about history, the more I understand about the evolution of handgun use.

The group with the biggest influence in the design of the M1911 was the cavalry. They used the pistol mostly one handed by necessity (the other hand held either the reins or a saber). The grip and thumb safety were requested by them. By WWII the army had begun to hold the pistol with two hands, but they still considered it a one-hand weapon, which was reflected in their training. The teacup method is an attempt to add support to the shooting hand, and it’s the direct precursor to the weaver stance.

Modern doctrine considers the pistol a two-hand weapon, you use it one handed only in emergencies when one hand is unavailable or injured. Both hands are used to muscle the pistol so it returns quickly to its point of aim after the recoil. Multiple quick and accurate shots are considered important, because today we know that pistols are not great in stopping people, regardless of caliber.
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Re: What’s wrong with a Teacup pistol grip?

Post by damnitman »

Stiff wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:33 pm
WWII training for the M1911.

Thanks for posting that. About 1/2 of what was taught in that video is now considered poor shooting technique. It's a good thing we didn't have to win the war with a 1911! ;)

Here is a video of more modern technique taught by a real pistol competitor;


http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... d-jarrett/

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Re: What’s wrong with a Teacup pistol grip?

Post by auggiecc87 »

I onIy shoot with my left pinky toe. All bullseyes.
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Re: What’s wrong with a Teacup pistol grip?

Post by OldBrowning »

Don’t you hate it when the OP goes AWOL...

Had to take a break from shooting & even dry firing & was too bummed to think about shooting. One of the drugs I’m on to calm down my sciatic nerve after my surgery caused double vision. Not the usual kind of double vision when you can close one eye & it goes away, but 2 images displaced vertically—either eye one at a time. Going to see my eye doc.

I have my granddads pistol WWI training manual for pistol In the cavalry. Back when the cavalry still rode horses. I shows a soldier gallantly firing his 1911 One handed right over the horse’s ear. Don’t know how well that might have worked

I had started with a Jarret-like grip and tried for hours of practice (just gripping, not dry firing—I’m obsessive about these things). Couldn’t make it work ‘cause I couldnt get my thumbs up out of the way & get my finger in the trigger guard at the same time. Not to mention engaging the grip safety. Crawled allover the gun trying to find a sweet spot—no dice. Arthritis and an old fracture

I use a close-to Jarrett grip on my S&W 629 44 & it worksOK. I put oversize Hogue grips on it & the trigger guard is much larger, no grip safety, different grip to bore angle, etc. The 1911 is a challenge for me, but I’m determined to learn how to shoot it

So I ended up having to use a more Zin-like bullseye grip with a very slightly (1/8”) lower hold on the grip. Then a support hand with the gun on my lifeline and fingers angled halfway between Jarret and teacup. Thumbs low, relaxed& crossed. Comfortable and repeatable

I popped off a few rounds out in the back 40 & I got muzzle rise but no flip & hands stayed together. At 10 or 15 yards, horizontal dispersion was about 3” vertical about 10”. Seeing two front sights doesn’t double your accuracy from what I can tell

Thanks for all the advice & I’ll report back when I can get back to shooting!

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Re: What’s wrong with a Teacup pistol grip?

Post by CDFingers »

I find no downside to handling one's firearm. Breeds familiarity. I call it fondling. Hope your eyes get squared away.

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