Re: Appleseed Experience.

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Yes, Oldschool. Don't give up on it. They could use a few more like you. I'm just one guy with one bad day. Many here give Appleseed good reviews. I really only started this thread because I searched this forum for info on Appleseed and found lots of positive stuff. I just wanted the next person who searched for Appleseed info to hear another point of view.

Hell, Oldschool, maybe I'll fly down and take your course sometime. Keep up the good work!

Re: Appleseed Experience.

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Oldschool wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:36 pm I get it, I'm not 100% in, but not going to give up yet either.
Good! One of these days I plan to go. I’m not too bothered to hear hint of freedom or whatever relating to our historical tradition or future need. I share that thought to a point, where I diverge from a right winger is my perspective. I’m pretty much a lefty. I think it was mentioned by the OP that it was a united effort and an essential common interest that gained our independence. I believe that. So I’m not opposed to hearing it, my end goal is different than theirs. Then again I recall a mention of the campfires and exchange of ideas, it’s also a tradition. We are experiencing hard times and divisiveness is in the air. I won’t shy from mentioning my leanings if poked. Before going I need to get out and practice more, this pandemic has sidetracked my plans. Really glad to hear (read) you’re involved, Oldschool, I could see getting more involved myself given time. I hope I run into an instructor like you when my time comes. By the way, what rifle did you use? I don’t have a semiautomatic 22LR and I really can’t spare the expense for another rifle at the moment. I can’t realistically say my Garand would be a good option with the ammo shortage and costs being as high at the moment.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Appleseed Experience.

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The first rifle course everyone does is with a 22lr. I have never been to an event where the instructors didn't bring their rifles to use as loaners in case someone needed one. You don't need to buy anything but ammo is my bet. Find an event, talk to the shoot boss before hand and let them know you need a loaner rifle. Buy a brick or two of CCI SV ammo and done. It is nice to have a mat, so bring a blanket, foam floor squares, yoga mat, whatever.

99% the loaner will be a Ruger 10/22.

https://appleseedinfo.org/schedulemap/
Old School
The best upgrade for you firearm is always instruction and practice.

Re: Appleseed Experience.

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Oldschool wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:26 am The first rifle course everyone does is with a 22lr. I have never been to an event where the instructors didn't bring their rifles to use as loaners in case someone needed one. You don't need to buy anything but ammo is my bet. Find an event, talk to the shoot boss before hand and let them know you need a loaner rifle. Buy a brick or two of CCI SV ammo and done. It is nice to have a mat, so bring a blanket, foam floor squares, yoga mat, whatever.

99% the loaner will be a Ruger 10/22.

https://appleseedinfo.org/schedulemap/
Thanks. I’ll keep that in mind. I’ll have see about getting more CCI SV first! LoL. Hoping 2022 will be the year I can go.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Appleseed Experience.

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Reading this post, I had a somewhat different interpretation.
cooper wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 11:29 am Went to first day of an Appleseed and didn't go back to the second day. I thought it was apolitical. Not my experience. For those who don't know, It's a program based on Liberty, Heritage, and Marksmanship. I knew that going in was fine with it--those values should be nonpartisan in America. I mean, saying you don't love Liberty, Heritage, and Marksmanship is like saying you don't love Jesus and apple pie (see where I'm going here?). While that motto has the potential to be a serious dog whistle, I figured I was just overthinking it and people here have had good experiences. So I went.
Potential, sure. But was it? In the context of Appleseed, that "Heritage" part looks like the heritage of American marksmanship, and the heritage of us fighting the British confiscatory attempts at Concord.
cooper wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 11:29 am The rifle training was great, the history part was nice enough, and there were a lot of friendly folks there. But it opens with lots of, "The problem right now is not enough people love liberty." And that keeps going. ALL. DAY. LONG. It continues with, "If someone's liberty was being trampled today do you think you could muster even 1000 armed men to stand up for them? How about 100? How about 10?" Yeah, it was like that.
That's kinda the point of Appleseed, though. Remember, their motivation for teaching marksmanship means also teaching the history behind the need for that marksmanship, starting, again, from Concord. That was the idea behind the American Revolution and standing up for liberty, so this actually makes sense to me.
cooper wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 11:29 am Training was good, so I stayed. You know, maybe I'm just overly sensitive. I mean maybe I just see dog whistles everywhere now and I'm paranoid. Yeah, no. Sanity check in the afternoon. Instructors and students held a nice big anti-vax / anti-mask echo chamber. I don't care what the students say--I brush that crap off all the time. But the leader? Made me start to wonder what "liberties" they're training to defend. I'm not sitting around for this. They got a piece of my mind.
I'd take it at its face regarding the defense of liberty. They've always been about that and should be. So they happen not to like masks or vaccines. The latter is ironic, given that it was the Trump-era "Operation Warp Speed" that got us these vaccines as quickly as we got them. Indeed, as I was preparing to get vaccinated and to the present day, I often refer to it as having gotten my "Trump vaccine", especially in socially conservative company. Maybe this'll help.
cooper wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 11:29 am So yeah, maybe it's just me, but I ain't going back. As always, your mileage may vary.
As Twisted Sister lead singer Dee Snider put it in 1985, "Tipper Gore was looking for sado-masochism in our lyrics [We're Not Gonna Take It] and she found it." The song actually had nothing to do with that. It's easy for us to look for things, expect it, and then subsequently see it. So, as much as many of us Liberals like to accuse Conservatives of being prejudiced, we need to be just as careful of committing the sin, too.

In this case, while I obviously wasn't at your Appleseed, just from the description it seems like this case really wasn't anything to be all too concerned about. I see that you got an apology, and that's cool. That might've been an olive leaf, a hand extended to you, and I would recommend that it be taken as such.

A few years ago, I went to the BangSteel 1,000-yard school. Did pretty well, too. Both the instructor and his son are most definitely Conservatives. Maybe even that Scarlet Letter, "Trump Supporters!" AAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! But guess what? They turned out to be pretty cool guys. We did talk some politics. They did learn that I'm a Liberal, and we discussed that, too. The son, in his late teens, seemed somewhat more prejudiced about Liberals than the father did. He told me, "Liberals are irresponsible!" I made it a teachable moment. It went about like this.

Son: Liberals are irresponsible!
Me: Really? Is that so?
Son: Yeah, they don't wanna take responsibility for their actions.
Me: Hmm...how about me?
Son: (silence)
Me: Remember, I'm here. I'm taking responsibility for my marksmanship by having your Dad and you teach me. Right?
Son: Well....well, maybe you're an exception.
Me: Nope. There are a whole lot of us out here. You just don't hear about us in the media. That even includes Fox News and NRA News (Cowboy T note: this was when NRA News still existed).
Son: Umm...really...?
Me: Yep. You'd be surprised how many of us are out here. I wish the media would stop treating us like we don't exist. You're talkin' to one right now. Indeed, I'm here precisely *because* I'm a Liberal, not in spite of it.
Son: Wow.... (starts digesting this idea)

It continued a bit going into detail, but you get the idea. The son was surprised, but he had to acknowledge the correctness of my argument. He came to respect me...especially as he watched my marksmanship improve. I think it really took an upswing when he saw me continue shooting shortly after getting "scope eye" (yeah, it hurt, but hey, I'm game). He thus himself got a lesson, and I think it'll be a helpful one for him in the long run.

That's what can happen if one keeps a level head in "the enemy camp". They may prove not to be such an enemy after all.
"San Francisco Liberal With A Gun"
http://www.sanfranciscoliberalwithagun.com/ (reloading instruction)
http://www.liberalsguncorner.com/ (podcast)
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A true Liberal must back the Second Amendment 100%!

Re: Appleseed Experience.

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Tipper Gore? Really? Thanks for the pat on the head.

I let a lot of comments slide for hours at the Appleseed event. That's just what you do at shooting events if you're a liberal. I've made peace with that because I really like to shoot. But all my silence did was embolden them to hold a huge bizzaro right wing nut job conspiracy pep rally led by the instructors in the afternoon.

It wasn't just "stupid masks, stupid Fauci." That would be garden variety. It was, "here's how you own those liberals." It was led by the instructors. The lead instructor says he goes up to mask wearers and challenges them for wearing masks by telling them that he's carrying a gun, why don't they? I mean, that's borderline threatening. If some random dude came up to me while I was masked and challenged my mask-wearing by saying he was carrying, I would soil my pants. (I have my concealed carry license but choose not to carry.)

Like I said before, your interpretations may vary. But I'm sticking to mine.

As I said before, "gun up to defend your freedom" was a cute T-shirt slogan not so long ago.
- Then my yard got vandalized twice for putting up Democratic signs (never before).
- Then my 80-year-old mother was afraid to put political signs in her yard (for the first time ever).
- Then January 6 happened.

Times have changed. And Appleseed's message walks such a fine line that at registration they need to assert they are not a militia wanting to overthrow the US government, or something like that. You know, like the Q-tips box that says not to insert them in your ears.

Am I too sensitive? It's all about context.

As I mentioned above, I'm a physician treating hospitalized COVID-19 patients since the beginning, and it's getting exhausting. I work in a rural area with an exceedingly low level of vaccination among the general public, including the hospital staff. The week before Appleseed, soup was hitting the fan in my region because there were no ICU beds anywhere. (It has pretty much stayed that way ever since.) We were juggling patients and running out of respiratory equipment in ways that would shock you. In America.

Night before Appleseed, I'm off service but I'm up late anyway trying to help my partner figure out what to do with more COVID-19 patients we don't have room for (and neither does any nearby hospital).

It's all very theoretical and a distant pain in the neck to most people, but this is my regular life now. Nurses are quitting left and right, and that's just making the bed shortages worse. Vaccine mandate was delayed by court action, but if it comes down, we're screwed x2 because a significant number of staff will quit instead of taking the shot.

Why the long diatribe on COVID-19? Two reasons.

First, obviously because he hit the rawest nerve possible for me. I recognize that. I also recognize that's why you don't invite people to a politics free event and start talking about one of the most contentious topics of the moment. You don't know who's coming from where. But you do know we all like to shoot, so just shut up and talk shooting. And shoot.

Second, because I'm big on freedom coming with responsibility. It's kind of my thing lately. They keep exercising their freedom to not vaccinate and mask. And they keep showing up in the ER sick. And we keep intubating them. And they keep dying. And they keep coming. So when a group keeps screaming "freedom, guns, freedom, guns" but gives not a single breath to responsibility, I'm out.

It's important for me to say that I didn't leave out of anger. I left on principle. I completed the first day and went home plenty ticked. My groups were horrible after I confronted the entire group by myself. And I was mad that I had to have that confrontation. But I got home and decided I wasn't going to let my anger push me out. Like I said, I like shooting. I cleaned my rifle that night and packed for the morning. I woke up no longer angry, and decided not to give them another day. On principle.

So yeah, I realize I'm a minority of one on this one. I wouldn't even comment except I only went to Appleseed because everyone here raves about it, and I thought another perspective was appropriate.

I've examined my feelings on this a lot over the past 2 months, trying to figure out if I'm crazy. My understanding of the situation hasn't changed. Maybe I'm crazy. Maybe it's gaslighting. But I only know my own reality.

Side note. I'm feeling substantially out of touch with the LGC. If I'm seeing something so clearly that no one else sees, then what the heck?

I've toyed with going to another Appleseed just to see. But it was hard enough for me to free up one weekend for myself as it was, so we'll see.

Re: Appleseed Experience.

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Cooper, it’s your experience and how you interpreted the events. If you’re not comfortable with the event leave it where it is. As for being out of touch with the LGC, it saddens me that it’s your takeaway. It’s human to respond based on our experiences and to some extent I suspect our pain thresholds vary as well. I think some of us are perhaps trying to say, there are individuals and the group. Individuals don’t always align with the stated positions and intentions of a group. That happens and my gut feeling is that was happening with your instructor. But, I wasn’t there, you were and your response is based on your background and experiences. I’d be irritated as well over some of his comments, especially the mask and carrying. I’d be tempted to point out to him it’s a choice to do either or both and at times I do both as well. You were there, you know firsthand what response was appropriate for you and how he might react. Being there, I might withhold my temptation and keep my mouth shut. I won’t know until I run across a similar individual. Go back or don’t is a choice as well, I would recommend if you lean toward giving it another go to call or e-mail and ask if there’s an instructor in your area that would be a better fit. Sometimes a prior conversation helps, it won’t help if the instructor is close minded and has his own agenda. I personally don’t have a problem with the stated goals of the Appleseed event, it doesn’t mean I couldn’t have a problem with an individual instructor. My reactions to an individual instructor would be largely tempered by my cheapness, I paid for something I’d finish it. I do understand if that is not an option others would take. I hope you’ll take some of our responses as just fellow liberals trying to walk through your experience with you, an examination. I’m trying to learn from your experience and it’s preparing me for how I would respond in a similar situation. I recall Inquisitor, commented that regions differ, that is likely true. Finding a suitable instructor isn’t that easy in all parts of our country. Long comment for what I want to say, hang in there and do only what you’re comfortable with.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Appleseed Experience.

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cooper wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:43 am Side note. I'm feeling substantially out of touch with the LGC. If I'm seeing something so clearly that no one else sees, then what the heck?
Cooper, I've just saw this thread for the first time today, ironically I did a two day Appleseed three weeks after you. Had I read this before I signed up, I might not have gone. My experience was nothing like yours; there were a couple of statements made that flirted with the line, and I took those as an indication of right of center leanings from those leading the event. And I would feel safe in saying the group that was there was probably solidly right of center also, there was one other LGC member there. This event took place 20 miles outside the liberal bastion of Portland OR, and I wasn't surprised by what I found, as I expected the group would lean right.

I don't know what state your located in, from this thread, I suspect it must be pretty red and it sounds like your in a very rural and probably extremely red portion of it.
I don't find it hard to believe that given a location like that, you might very well have experienced one of the most politicized Appleseed events; actually its where I would expect find it. And as it seems the same people officiate these events month after month it's easy to see that they could well be pushing their rhetoric further with every event they do, if their comments are being bolstered by those in attendance.

My guess is that their conduction will continue, unless the Appleseed Association is made aware of the fact the that these folks have forgotten they're supposed to appear neutral politically at these events. They do have a forum of their own https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php where one might broach the subject, or perhaps a letter to their national headquarters, wherever that may be, Valley Forge I suspect.
"it's a goddamn impossible way of life"
"And so it goes"

Re: Appleseed Experience.

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Geno good comment! I didn’t realize there was a forum! Definitely sounds like the Appleseed Association should be notified too. Cooper perhaps that is why you received an apology, he knew he crossed the line and it wouldn’t sit well with the association. I’m going to look into the forum myself.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Appleseed Experience.

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Sika and Geno, thank you for just acknowledging that it was my experience. I've admitted that I'm overly sensitive to this one particular issue. And I've certainly tried to acknowledge that others have had different experiences and interpretations.

CowboyT, my apologies if my response to your post was a little harsh. It just felt like you were saying I didn't experience what I know I experienced. Again, my apologies if I misinterpreted. This method of conversation is imperfect at times.

However, I'll keep banging away at two things:

1. Liberty requires a high level of responsibility from citizens. I don't see that emphasized enough currently. And I don't see it mentioned at all at Appleseed--apart from responsible handling of firearms. Our miserable response to the pandemic highlights the importance of this.

2. Because of our recent history and current climate, Appleseed should recognize that they are walking a fine line with their rhetoric. I'm probably alone on this one, but when your message is "gun up for freedom" that can mean a lot of different things, and their organization needs to be very clear about what that does and doesn't mean.

I was out shooting yesterday, and loved the difference I was seeing from just a half an Appleseed. I think that's what really roasts my chestnuts. I want to go back. There's none close to me. They're all a drive, so I can pick another one in the spring. I don't want to yield liberty and marksmanship to right wing nut jobs.

Re: Appleseed Experience.

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cooper wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:05 am Sika and Geno, thank you for just acknowledging that it was my experience. I've admitted that I'm overly sensitive to this one particular issue. And I've certainly tried to acknowledge that others have had different experiences and interpretations.

CowboyT, my apologies if my response to your post was a little harsh. It just felt like you were saying I didn't experience what I know I experienced. Again, my apologies if I misinterpreted. This method of conversation is imperfect at times.

However, I'll keep banging away at two things:

1. Liberty requires a high level of responsibility from citizens. I don't see that emphasized enough currently. And I don't see it mentioned at all at Appleseed--apart from responsible handling of firearms. Our miserable response to the pandemic highlights the importance of this.

2. Because of our recent history and current climate, Appleseed should recognize that they are walking a fine line with their rhetoric. I'm probably alone on this one, but when your message is "gun up for freedom" that can mean a lot of different things, and their organization needs to be very clear about what that does and doesn't mean.

I was out shooting yesterday, and loved the difference I was seeing from just a half an Appleseed. I think that's what really roasts my chestnuts. I want to go back. There's none close to me. They're all a drive, so I can pick another one in the spring. I don't want to yield liberty and marksmanship to right wing nut jobs.
Take your time, contact the association Geno mentioned and see where it goes.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

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